Daenerys's fate

[hiemal]

She will give the Iron Throne and Westeros to Tyrion, Essos to (f)Aegon, and repopulate Valyria with Jon.

It is known.

Or wildly speculated.

[CrannogXninja]

It's as if some of you forget, there's faceless men wreaking havoc around Westeros whilst trying to obtain any and all info on dragons...

And the king of the probes ironborn was killed supposedly by a faceless man..ironborn/faceless men will hit Daenerys hard after she wins westeros, she will probably die.

[KINGpanther]

Euron to bring Dany to Westeros in chains and a dragon under his command. Tyrells will get smoked.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Dany is so very much like Paul. So far, her crusade has been a secular one (to free slaves). But, unknown to her, she is also seen as religious leader by the priests of the Red God.

This is ironic of fitting, depending on your opinion of Daenerys, because Herbert meant Paul to be in part a cautionary tale about following messianic figures.

"The bottom line of the Dune trilogy is: beware of heroes. Much better rely on your own judgment, and your own mistakes."

[kimim]

Yes, there is going to be a rash of slave revolts. It happened in the real world too. In RL Spartacus revolt was a mother of a revolt, it lasted for years and thousands of slave ran away and flocked to his cause. He was flirting with 100 000 followers at some point, which Dany has yet to reach. Still got crushed because ultimately the environment had not changed.

The situation in Meereen is simple: Their economy is in ruin. This city used to produce low value agricultural goods through slave labors and also produced slave themselves as a high value goods. That was their economy. It now no longer sells slaves and its proudction costs for their low value goods have skyrocketed.

How can it compete? It can't. How come it hasn't been conquered or backslided into a slave economy yet? Because it's propped up by a magical plot device: A large elite free army (Unsullied may not be slave, but they ain't paid!) and three dragons. Remove that magical crutch and it promptly falls.

Now, how can it maintain an economy without slavery? It needs to move away from low value, labor intensive goods and into high technology, high craftmanship, high value goods. In the context of a fantasy medieval world; Glass, high quality steel, alchemical goods etc. Glass seems especially promising seeing as they have no shortage of sand...

With such industries driving your economy, not only can you thrive without slavery, slavery would in fact be counter productive since they are not consumers, meaning there would be no risk of backsliding.

How do you develop this new economy?

...

This, again.

If Dany had Meereen, Yunkai, Astapor (assuming she made different decisions earlier, or destroys them, and takes over in WoW), then added Volantis, she would control all powerful slaving states. At that point, she would control external threats, and would be in a position to rebuild, away from slavery and slave labor to high technology, high craftmanship, high value goods. Within a few generations, that kingdom or federation would be among the most powerful and prosperous in the world. That would be very cool.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think people forget that Daenerys Targaryen has had a target painted on her back since BEFORE she was born thanks to the crimes of her brother, father, and ancestors (Daeron the Good according to the Blackfyres & Valyrians according to the Faceless/Braavosi).

This whole notion that "DANY IS GOING TO DIE AND GOOD RIDDANCE BECAUSE I HATE HER OH SO VERY MUCH?" Sorry, but you're a good 16 (or 100, or 400) years too late.

A bittersweet ending for Dany wouldn't be death. It would be living with an ache and an emptiness inside of her.

I don't know that Dany will die. She may, however, have to live after saying goodbye to something (or someone) she loves.

[Sword of Mutilation]

I think people forget that Daenerys Targaryen has had a target painted on her back since BEFORE she was born thanks to the crimes of her brother, father, and ancestors (Daeron the Good according to the Blackfyres & Valyrians according to the Faceless/Braavosi).

This whole notion that "DANY IS GOING TO DIE AND GOOD RIDDANCE BECAUSE I HATE HER OH SO VERY MUCH?" Sorry, but you're a good 16 (or 100, or 400) years too late.

A bittersweet ending for Dany wouldn't be death. It would be living with an ache and an emptiness inside of her.

I don't know that Dany will die. She may, however, have to live after saying goodbye to something (or someone) she loves.

Hope this means that daario will die

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Hope this means that daario will die

Poor Daario has always been a short term thing. She chose Hizdar over him for Pete's sake.

[Ser Creighton]

Of course you may. An excellent response. I struggled with Dany's chapters when she arrived in Slavers bay and despite her good intentions I felt that she was trying to change too much too soon leaving me with the impression that she was ultimately foolish. But, those very actions may have already won several battles for her by inspiring revolution, which is inadvertently very clever. Win the people, win the realm. I just couldn't see that before and feel a bit stupid for not looking at it that way. I just felt her good intentions were being washed away with the sand.

In hindsight.

My interest peaked with the appearance of Bennero and his bold statements regarding Dany. This should of been adequate foreshadowing.

I will enjoy her story more if she can push west liberating cities and punishing slavers, leaving a lot of the politics to older wiser people who know how to execute her will more effectively. The prospect of having Tyrion chapters as her political mastermind and Dany chapters as a liberator is very exciting. It would free her up, so to speak. Her vitriol wont seem so desperate, I think. Mereen had a detrimental effect on her chapters for me. I enjoy Tyrions dialogue the most interesting so endless chapters of him talking would be fine. Fingers crossed, Dany can just lead people and be the figure-head because her dialogue does very little for me, despite her best intentions. It's her actions that make her an excellent character.

I wonder if my appreciation of Stannis would decline if he had a POV? I think I'd appreciate Dany more if there was an air of mystery to her.

Don't feel stupid, you know with a lot of the chapters, not just Dany, they happen to be very dense and you have to read them and all the other books very closely. You know when Dance came out a lot of people didn't like it, including me, but the closer I looked at and the more I understood it the better it became. Like the title itself, I was like were is my dragon war? But then I realized that the title was a metaphor for the actions of the Dragons (People) and how they paralleled each other, they were in a sense dancing.

Dance is where I actually really began to appreciate Dany's chapters the most and the story Martin was writing from her perspective, she fit in with all of his themes. For me he really hit his high notes with her chapters in that book. You see where he left the ground work for all these subtle movements and changes.

Benerro is making some very interesting claims, and again you can kind of see how it balances out with lets say Jon, or Stannis. Or as I call it sometimes the obscure and the obvious. Dany the obvious Dragon and Jon the obscure one. Here is one priest talking about AAR and Dany is the prophecy fulfilled and then I look at Jon and I see Mel standing there. Now I think most suspect Mel will get a clue and figure out what here visions were telling her. Though really when you ask a Question and your vision literally tells you Jon Snow and can;t do the math you got issues. Of course Dany also has a priest on the way to her and he has his visions as well and is really good at reading them. Though that does not make either him or Mel right. I think the whole AA thing relates to multiple people, it's sort of like the Iron throne for me, a lot of people get caught up with who is AA or who will win the Throne, but I never looked at the books that way. It's not important, as Martin says the real threat is in the north, that is what people should be concerned with.

Stannis may be using the name, Jon may use the sword, and Dany may have the magic, but in the end it's not going to be about one person, that is not what Martin writes about. Everything these people do does actually effect the future of the others. I tend to look at the books as a large metaphor about the human heart and the conflict within. Sometimes I think we get caught in the trappings of the books and fail to look closer at what the author is saying.

That's why I tend to be so adamant about slavery. People often look for the grey in slavery, but Martin is not writing about the grey in slavery, slavery is bad, war is bad, rape is bad, he very clearly has things he thinks are really bad. It's about the character journey through these times, it's about their lives and how they have been effected, and their choices and really everything that a lot of go through, though the scale and the nature of the story is in a very nice fantasy package, it is still just a package. Look deeper with the books, to often people are looking for these flawless archetypes, and they are anything but. It's easy to pick at any characters choices,, just like we can do that with people we know in the real world.

You know Stannis with a POV would be something and you may like him less, or you may like him more he is a bit like Robb though in that sense. So many people felt Robb was going to be this big hero and he was very popular but he was not a POV, how would fans feel if they really knew what he was thinking?

[Ser Creighton]

Yes, there is going to be a rash of slave revolts. It happened in the real world too. In RL Spartacus revolt was a mother of a revolt, it lasted for years and thousands of slave ran away and flocked to his cause. He was flirting with 100 000 followers at some point, which Dany has yet to reach. Still got crushed because ultimately the environment had not changed.

The situation in Meereen is simple: Their economy is in ruin. This city used to produce low value agricultural goods through slave labors and also produced slave themselves as a high value goods. That was their economy. It now no longer sells slaves and its proudction costs for their low value goods have skyrocketed.

How can it compete? It can't. How come it hasn't been conquered or backslided into a slave economy yet? Because it's propped up by a magical plot device: A large elite free army (Unsullied may not be slave, but they ain't paid!) and three dragons. Remove that magical crutch and it promptly falls.

Now, how can it maintain an economy without slavery? It needs to move away from low value, labor intensive goods and into high technology, high craftmanship, high value goods. In the context of a fantasy medieval world; Glass, high quality steel, alchemical goods etc. Glass seems especially promising seeing as they have no shortage of sand...

With such industries driving your economy, not only can you thrive without slavery, slavery would in fact be counter productive since they are not consumers, meaning there would be no risk of backsliding.

How do you develop this new economy?

Step one: The dragons and heaven sent free army is going nowhere for the time being!

Step Two: Aquire massive capital. At this point it pretty much can only be confiscated from the rich families of Meereen.

Step Three: Massive and sustained investments to develop these new industries, attracting specialized workers and providing tons of incentive.

Step Four: Develop trade

Step Five: Develop a solid financial system so that investments can continue, you can only confiscate so much wealth!

Step six: Stay the course for... oh, let's say, a generation? Westeros? Forget about it.

Step Seven: Mereen becomes a beacon and their model slowly spread, by soft power or military expansion.

Step Eight: Two centuries later, Slaver Bay has been renamed and is one of the most prosperous area in the world. Dany has as many monuments named after her as George Washington but the average Westerosi doesn't even know what a 'Targaryen' is supposed to be.

Of course, the author can wave his magic wand and say the economy is as magical as the dragons themselves and these hundreds of thousands of free slaves don't starve or loot everything because that would make Dany cry. But that would cheapen any success Dany would have in that regard (much like her unrealistic military campaign to get Mereen in the first place!).

But what I really expect will happen is that she's leaving and the whole area will become an unruly mess for the next fifty years. There will be free slaves for a while but this will descend in chaos and hundreds of thousands of people will die.

Ok first of all slaves are not an economy or a product, they are people, you need to except that fact before you can move on. You can't say they are people and then refer to them as nothing but a product. It's completely demeaning, they don't product sorry that is just how it is.

We have no idea how many people actually follow her at this point, she is talked about all over Essos, in some cases people are starting worship her as a god.

So once upon a time I wrote an entire post about slavery and economies, and I don't even remember where it is at currently but I will find it. In short several institutions found it to be a parasitic culture that was disastrous in every aspect of both the slaves and the slavers. If I find it I will post it it was on the thread where someone was talking about slaves liking being slaves and the author compared them to insects. I think Vic something or another started that thread.

Anyway it was not a low agricultural city, it made a a high end product, or grew, olives. Very valuable actually, and one of the few things that will grow in their soil. The main income was not just the buying and selling of slaves but the pit fighting. That's what Meereen is known for, the Pits. Interesting Olives and Pits.

Why hasn't it collapsed, well the economy did collapse, Dance very clearly points out Dany is looking at the cities options for an economy, that's one of the reasons she allowed the Pits to be opened again along with the fact that the fighters were volunteers. Though to be honest they are products of their environment, they have been raised their whole life to think this is what is and how it should be.

The city would fall because their is a large host laying siege to it and trying to block trade deals between Meereen and other cities. The main economy for the slave cities is the buying, selling and training of slaves. Remove that and al their economies will fail, we saw it happen in the south after the civil war. You will see failing economies all over the world without slavery being involved, the US is how many trillions in Debt? Detroit declared bankruptcy, I mean if you want to get into economics slavery itself is about the furtherest thing you will get from a balanced economy, it's a parasitic economy and almost always implodes even Rome who destroyed their soil in Italy by over farming because they over expanded due to slavery and had to feed the slaves. Free Labor never works it's self destructive.

They were actually moving towards high value goods, but not just high value, unique, unfortunately the sons of the Harpy keep killing people. You have a covert insurrection, lack of trade partners, a war, and every other major problem you can think of. Oh and a plague, did I forget the plague. I know you want to jump ahead to the future but Dany has a lot on her plate that needs to be handled.

1. So step one you want to save Meereen? That's a tough one, it's got shit soil, bad water, and is an over expanded slaver city, with a failing infrastructure.

So step one for me is actually move. You can fix a lot of things but you can't fix location, water and no top soil. Though I admit I love the burning of the Olive trees, very symbolic, there will be no peace in Meereen.

Moving would probably be for the best, it did a lot for the Braavosi.

2. Massive capitol, I agree. And they have every right to take it, that is not the slavers money that is the lives they stole, they have no right to it.

So take massive amounts of money and leave. Go to the other slaver cities, free slaves, take what you can rinse and repeat. The city you want to take is Qarth, location, location, location. Now you take out enough of these cities and eventually you will find the problem solves itself. You see the history of slavery tells us, you have to get the government to end slavery, once that occurs you can make progress. In order to get the slave cities to break your way you are going to have to break them first. You take Qarth or Volantis and the other will probably fold without a fight.

3. I have no problem with 3, though in places like Meereen you have limitations.

4. Trade? Well yes, trade. Though I am noticing you are ignoring existing competition and rivalries. You know Essos has had it's share of wars both in the slave cities and the free cities. Your list is very over simplified and generic. Saying develop trade is not a trade plan if you get my meaning.

5. Financial system, again very simplified and general. Taxes? What Tax structure, who are you taxing? The glass blowers you mentioned above? You know who says Meereen would be a trade hub for glass, there are glass blowers already established in this world. How would Dany's be better in order to take away business from the already well established glass blowers. Really the fact that Education was not in your top three is a concern for me. Not just traditional but trade schools, apprenticeship programs. You also failed to take advantage of her single biggest attraction. Dragon tours, be the first in your family to ride on a dragon, can you imagine what you could charge, people getting to fly? Dragon petting zoo? And lets be honest she could be the single greatest gun for hire in the world.

6. Stay the corse, a thousand points of light. Thanks Bush, but once again you fail to account for the Others, and the Long night. You also have not taken an thought in starting fresh, a new city, with a better location, better water, better soil. Plus you can build things and infrastructure is the heart of a sound economy. I am saying don't stick around, Meereen is a dump and a money pit, turn it to dust. Force Qarth to bend the knee, and tax them, same for Volantis, and develop trade with Braavos oh and Westeros, yes trade with Westeros, that's all whole lot of people to business with others in Essos do it. Better go pay a visit with your future trade partners and the back yard of her kingdom.

7. Meereen the city of dreams? Really? You know Braavos has been around for a long time and fought many wars, you still have slavery. Now team up with Braavos, to crush slavery, and now you have a well established slave free government to help oversee your kingdom and then pay off the debt of Westeros and go collect it. And given how big your kingdom is, feel free for Empress Dany to decide where she lives.

You know once she stops trying to end slavery, the movement stops, that's why you just can't sit still, you have to move forward, you must advance. Once you stop you become a non threat and the slavers will continue. Burn the three sister slaver cities to the ground, Crush Volantis who is picking the fight with her and this will remove Qarth as a threat as trade partners for slavery will be almost nonexistent.

8. Two centuries later if Dany had not left? The Others rule the world and the humans are either dead or slaves.

The whole "power expanding without her" is right on point. I just read the first two Dune novels and I see Daenerys as very similar to Paul. He can see the jihad spreading throughout the universe and knows it'll leave woe in its wake, but he can't take himself out of the equation. Dany is, I think, going to understand that what she's begun will continue with or without her, but better with her.

Oh god why did you bring this up? I can talk Dune all day, and often do on this board, though Alia of the Knife is the real expert of the subject. So yes you can see a bit of Paul with Dany though it fits in with the Messiah aspect of that story. Martin plays with the idea of prophecy and does not follow the exact beliefs of Herbert though both thought they were dangerous. Take Stannis who is fighting a holy war to save the world. In this case he thinks he is the Paul figure so to speak. Then you have Rhaegar who may have become trapped within the prophecy. Bran has Paul like powers, more so than Dany and Jon. Though Bran, Dany, and Jon are much more oblivious to the prophecy than Paul. Paul could control what he was doing, and he tried to make prophecy happen and control it. Dany and Jon are not, they are very oblivious to their roles.

All of them have the threat of being pulled into prophecy, Dany with the red priests, Jon with Mel, Bran with Bloodraven. One of the saving graces is Dany who has visions does not understand them, they don't really guide her actions they way they did with Paul. In fact towards the end of Dance she was like what the hell does all this mean? Bran is the most at risk of this because of his power.

If you look at Dany's war on slavery it was not prophecy it was pure action, her choice was given to circumstance and her personal character. She is not trying to become AA, what she has done she has done free from that prophecy. Jon' actions are not effected by this prophecy either, he made his choices free from it as well. That is actually for the best because if it is going to happen it is going to happen naturally.

The danger to all of them is the influence around them. Like Mel around Dany would probably be really, really bad.

Now there is talk also about beware of hero' but Martin does not follow that line of thinking. Martin does not believe in hero' he believes in people doing heroic deeds, but that people in general are also capable of doing bad. Though he tries to keep it in line, someone who like Jon is not suddenly going to go lets kill babies and eat them. But he might use his power as LC to avenge his father by cutting off a scum bags head. Dany might nail a bunch of slavers up which itself is a cruel act, but in context and given the circumstance they brought their own mess down on their heads. Which really gets into the law that Martin follows, the law of unintended consequences. Jaime is a very grey character, he has been both a villain and a hero. But his actions always fit who he is and what we know of him, there is a line of logic with him, we can see his evolution from hero to failed KG, to villain, to anti hero. You also don't get one type of heroism with a character, sometimes they are reluctant, sometimes tragic, noble, Byronic, class warriors, anti hero he covers a lot of bases.

Then you can get into the fatal flaw of a character, though I think Martins idea of being fatally flawed is that everyone is human and thus flawed.

[Blazfemur]

To those that think she'll fight the Others:

She'll travel south east enough, through asshai, through the shadowlands (per quaithe's instruction) and end up north west on the westeros map, in the land of always winter. This is how she'll confront Others, the Wall, and journey her way south toward king's landing. That's the ONLY way I see her remotely, confronting the Others. This is a poor choice, with their limited warm clothing. This is also MOST likely we'd see an actual Ice Dragon, if an Other fells Viserion/Rhaegal/or Drogon, THEN resurrects it with blue eyes.

More realistically, to those that think she'll sail to westeros:

She'll either marry Victarian, or kill him outright, and gain control of his Iron Fleet to transport her armies over sea to westeros. I think this is more likely. Moqorro and Marwyn are just bonus literary storytelling, and i hope this is the route that GRRM wants to go. In this scenario, she NEVER ever confronts Others, i think.