Daenerys's fate

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Not ruling Westeros? Not getting the throne? Sure, entirely plausible. Never even going to Westeros? Then what the fuck is she doing in this story, besides delaying by years publications of books in which her character would be completely irrelevant? Nope. If Dany isn't destined to grace Westeros with her presence, then there has been no reason whatsoever to bind her chapters inside the same covers as chapters of "A Song of Ice and Fire".

[The Reckoner]

What if the smiling corpse is Melisandre's actual self, and she and Dany fall in love? Fits with the fires parts of the HotU Prophecies.

[Arya Stark Rules]

We don't even have example of them creating common infrastructures and trying to develop the economy and foster unity, the way the romans were building roads and aqueduc everywhere they ruled. As best I can tell, they basically were overlords collecting tributes.

Eh?

I don't think youve been paying attention to the story or have read the world book. The Targaryens built the kingsroad which connected the North, the riverlands, the reach, the westerlands and king's landing. It brought unity between those regions and allowed trade.

[MacReady]

Dany will make it to Westeros, of that I'm sure of. Otherwise what's the story of her character? She's been talking about it for the entire series now. If bringing dragons into her world was the entire purpose of her character then she could have died in Clash.

[Nictarion]

Danerys is a teenage child with delusions of grandeur. Mad as a hatter.

They're are not delusions. Her resume speaks for itself.

[Blazfemur]

Fire & Blood = Rh'llor & Blood Magic = Moqorro & Marwyn = Red Church & Citadel.

She will take what is hers with the red church, and the citadel, backing her.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dragons plant no trees.

My immediate thoughts on those words were 'Aye, but one that would rule must.'

That I think is Daenerys' central dilemma: that the thing she does best is to destroy things. Even her great act of birthing the dragons is tainted by destruction death of Drogo and Rhaego, the sacrifice of Mirri Maz Duur and the scattering of Drogo's Khalassar. After she births the dragons pretty much everywhere she goes Daenerys leaves a trail of destruction in her wake - Quath, Astrapor, Yunkai and Mereen. For good or ill Daenerys is a walking/riding/flying human force of destruction and the big conflict in her heart is trying reconcile that with essentially trying to be a good person. Mereen demonstrates that if she stays anywhere too long her destructive nature tends to get in the way of the rebuilding (or 'tree planting') that ultimately has to follow a destructive act if anything good is going to come of it.

Her nature is to go off and destroy something else that needs destroying. Which is why she is in my opinion a poor ruler she simply doesn't have the patience to see through long term change. Daenerys needs to find something that allows her to fully embrace her destructive nature and use it positively, so she doesn't feel guilty about the things. What sort of person goes around destroying things and is generally regarded as a good person?

Answer: your traditional fantasy hero - DnD/Conan style.

This is essentially my take on her. All she's capable of at the end of the day is creating chaos. That is her tragedy.

Fire & Blood = Rh'llor & Blood Magic = Moqorro & Marwyn = Red Church & Citadel.

She will take what is hers with the red church, and the citadel, backing her.

Marwyn is not backed by the entire Citadel; that's the entire point of his character being a renegade. The Citadel is anti-magic, whereas Marwyn isn't. So her (maybe) having Marwyn's support is not the same as her having the official support of the Citadel.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Eh?

I don't think youve been paying attention to the story or have read the world book. The Targaryens built the kingsroad which connected the North, the riverlands, the reach, the westerlands and king's landing. It brought unity between those regions and allowed trade.

That thing? It's mostly just dirt road. I don't remember any part of it being described as paved. It's likely mostly the result of caravans frequently moving through. A quick search shows almost no artist depicting it as paved.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Kingsroad

If the Targaryen thought this was a great engineering project to unite and develop their land, the Romans laugh at them. Heck, The Mongols laugh at them.

[SeanF]

I disagree with the bolded, Ill have to look it up though and get back to you.

I think a lot of posters would agree that the 7K were better off with the Targs than without, at first at least. Yes of course by 130 AC things had started going badly, due to that bitch Alicent Hightower. But prior to that the 7K were prosperous under the rule of the dragonlords.

They had a good run under Jahaeys I and Viserys I. 80 years of peace and prosperity.

OTOH, the Dornish wars, the civil wars under Aenys I and Maegor, and the Dance of the Dragons were horrendous.

[JRose1989]

Because that is not the case. To date I have'nt read ANYBODY saying she'll die birthing anybody's son ( She's incapable of giving birth according to many)

so i dont know where this is coming from (Trust me, I've looked)

Dude seriously? It is everywhere.

AntZ was a massive advocate for it, and quite a few other people are all about her dying in childbirth, the father may differ but her death does not.

And you are seriously saying you have never seen one poster insist that Drogon is going to go to Jon? Becuzz they are bof bLaCk!!

I envy you then, but it really isn't something I've just pulled out of thin air I promise. You mostly see it on Jon-lovers boards when the Dany bashing gets going.

Because apparently you can't love both.... :dunno:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

They had a good run under Jahaeys I and Viserys I. 80 years of peace and prosperity.

OTOH, the Dornish wars, the civil wars under Aenys I and Maegor, and the Dance of the Dragons were horrendous.

Not to mention all those Blackfyre Rebellions and Aegon IV banging his way across the country. And periods of peace that still had instability, like Baelor I's.

At some point I think we should consider the possibility that Jaehaerys I and Alysanne were exceptions and not the rule. Or at least, "Prosperity under Jaehaerys I =/= prosperity under the Targaryens as a whole."

[Mal Malenkirk]

They had a good run under Jahaeys I and Viserys I. 80 years of peace and prosperity.

OTOH, the Dornish wars, the civil wars under Aenys I and Maegor, and the Dance of the Dragons were horrendous.

We have to define prosperity. What great stride forward did Westeros take under Jaherys? What steps did he take to unify the realm and create prosperity? A network of paved roads to unite the land? A centralized food reserve to help in emergency during winter? An education system? Political reforms so that the kingdom is less vulnerable to the whims of a bad/insane monarch? Great monarchs have a laundry list of significant development under their reign. I see no such thing for Jaherys.

From my reading, it's under his rule that the King's road was 'built', but I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean since it's not even a paved road. Even right at the gate of King's landing it's described as a dirt road. What did he do? Draw it on a map and insist that this is where all the caravans would travel thus naturally creating it? Fine, maybe sent a few team to clear some paths, big deal. The romans laugh at this 'achievement'. So do the Mongols, Aztecs, Ottomans, Chinese etc. I can't think of a Real Word dynasty who did as little to develop their holdings as the Targaryens. Even their best monarchs look like lazy bums.

As best I can tell, Jahaerys greatest achievement was mostly being a good diplomat (Thus 'The Conciliator) who could forge peace and then not find ingenous ways to screw it up like so many of his kin. He mostly look good in comparison to the others.

[Disputatious]

If the Targaryen thought this was a great engineering project to unite and develop their land, the Romans laugh at them. Heck, The Mongols laugh at them.

Seven hells, the Valyrians laugh at them. :)

[Arya Stark Rules]

That thing? It's mostly just dirt road. I don't remember any part of it being described as paved. It's likely mostly the result of caravans frequently moving through. A quick search shows almost no artist depicting it as paved.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Kingsroad

If the Targaryen thought this was a great engineering project to unite and develop their land, the Romans laugh at them. Heck, The Mongols laugh at them.

I think youre being too harsh, whether the road is paved or not it improved trade and help connect those regions, there is also no evidence that if the Targs didn't come better things would have been built within 300 years.

[Arya Stark Rules]

Peace is a frustrating affair by necessity. War is easy, the end of compromise. It's an illusion but a seductive one.

If that's her conclusion and she acts on it, she's going down the villain's road.

It's my theme of the day but I hope there are no dragons at the end of the day. Let them die like rockstars against the Others and not grow old as tools to enforce despotism, bringing Daenerys into the tyrant's club. Without dragons, there will have to be negotiotions and there is a real chance of Westeros finally getting out of the dark ages and taking the first step of many toward a more inclusive form of governance. With dragons, you can restore the dragon monarchy and go on with good old fashioned despotism indefinitely. To have so many people die for that would be a little disheartening.

One could say the death of her dragons would save Daenerys' soul, maybe even prevent her from becoming a monster. But as I said, let the flying lizards be rockstars first, there are actual pure evil bad guys to burn in the deep North.

Dragons are not what is keeping Westeros in the dark ages, its other stuff like the political system etc. Valyria seemed to have dragons and they were the most developed civilization in planetos.

[Roxy Carmichael]

Dragons are not what is keeping Westeros in the dark ages, its other stuff like the political system etc. Valyria seemed to have dragons and they were the most developed civilization in planetos.

Because they had a shitload of slaves to build it for them.

[kimim]

What do the Targs have to show for their 300 years in power?

No evidence of building better infrastructure, which all empires go in for. This is especially weird, given Westerosi winters. These people need to be able to produce food very effectively, store food, get food to those regions that might be short of it. Zero evidence of Targ interest in roads, bridges, granaries, improved agricultural practices, irrigation projects, etc.

No attempt to codify the laws of the realm. No judiciary.

No evidence that they reformed or expanded educational institutions.

Evidence of taxation, but what is it being used for? Traditionally, this would be used for wars and infrastructure. There are plenty of civil wars plus Dornish resistance, but no infrastructure.

It's as if they land, and all they want is to be rulers of the realm, but in name only. The positive is they allow each region a great deal of autonomy; in fact, for most regions, it probably feels as if they don't exist. That could be a good thing, but that again raises the question: Why does Westeros need the Targs?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The ironborn rule was bloody and miserable in the riverlands Under Harren. many of the lords sided with the dragons right away, having a king on dragon back protect you from scum like that is reason enough for many citizens of Westeros.

[The King in Black]

Targs were just another overlords.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

That thing? It's mostly just dirt road. I don't remember any part of it being described as paved. It's likely mostly the result of caravans frequently moving through. A quick search shows almost no artist depicting it as paved.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Kingsroad

If the Targaryen thought this was a great engineering project to unite and develop their land, the Romans laugh at them. Heck, The Mongols laugh at them.

The thing is, the author isn't very passionate about infrastructure and shit, and from the looks of it, hardly anybody ever built anything in the eight thousand years of history of Westeros. Everything worthy of notice is a few thousand years old. So if the Targaryens accomplished next to nothing, their rule is, sadly, still the period of most rapid development in the history of the continent.

But true, the Targaryens didn't make up in three hundred years for what the Arryns, the Lannisters, the Starks and their like had been neglecting for eight millennia.