What the hell did happen at Summerhall?

[bent branch]

Everything we know about Varys before he joined the small council we were told by either Varys or Illyrio. And didn't Martin say something along the lines "Varys is one of the most misundestood characters" in asoiaf? Probably because it seems that 90% of the readers believe what he says.

It is funny what different impressions people get. My impression is that most people don't believe anything Varys says.

[John Doe]

Like Davos put it, some people believe everything and other people nothing.

[teemo]

I agree with everyone that's said it's going to be in the next D&E novel, although I was really looking forward to learning more about it in this book :( I can't wait to read about it though eventually.

[ambi76]

Sounds more and more like the "Red Wedding" massacre of its time to me, just with plenty dead Targaryens instead of Starks. Whatever you do, for fucks sake don't break political betrothals! People will be really pissed. Maybe even torch your Summer Castle while your whole family is feasting there. Alternatively Egg became just as mad as Aerys in his old age and torched the place himself, that's rather unlikely (hah!) though.

[walkingWITHcersei]

Sounds more and more like the "Red Wedding" massacre of its time to me, just with plenty dead Targaryens instead of Starks. Whatever you do, for fucks sake don't break political betrothals! People will be really pissed. Maybe even torch your Summer Castle while your whole family is feasting there. Alternatively Egg became just as mad as Aerys in his old age and torched the place himself, that's rather unlikely (hah!) though.

Again i ask why is it unlikely? I agree there's no direct evidence he went crazy, and he probably didn't, but i don't think it's crackpot, or even a stretch. The fact he was a Targ alone makes it a legitimate possibility, and tWoIaF shows dragons became an obsession for him. Maybe they were just his passion, as many here believe, but the line between dragon enthusiast and insane Targ monarch is a fine line indeed. Summerhall proves that even if he was sane his obsession had reached a potentially dangerous level. It remains to be seen who exactly Egg became in his later years, and dismissing the possibility bc everyone loves Egg isn't sound reasoning.

[Sanset]

I'm pretty convinced that the tragedy of Summerhall was the result of sabotage and that the most likely suspects are the maesters of the citadel.

I'm not certain how far one can draw a link/connection between the alchemists at Summerhall and the citadel; if there even is one to draw... but I'm assuming one or two alchemist was present for the 'dragon hatching' if only to control the wildfire, and that they conveniently 'lost' control....

And if the alchemists were not the culprits, maesters could still have been: it seems reasonable to assume Aegon had planned for maesters, or that a maester was invited to witness the event.

in any case, it makes most sense to me if not Varys or Illyrio (or whoever) but rather an "agent" of the Citadel was responsible for the tragedy. We have only heard bits and pieces here and there about maesters, the citadel, and their plotting/dislike for magic but Lady Dustin's word come to mind, Marwyn's too.

Further, reading WoIaF I couldn't help but feel suspicious every time Pycelle was mentioned as a regular correspondent (and informer) of the Citadel. Pycelle might indeed be loyal to the Lannisters, but that doesn't mean he's not been working for two factions, with two distinct but complementary goals:

1. the advancement of Tywin Lannister (personal loyalty), and

2. undermining the Targaryen dynasty as a whole (his maester's loyalty to the citadel).

If Pycelle is 'anti-dragon' Vary's motivation to have the maester killed is imo doubled. If there really is an 'anti-dragon' plot brewing at the citadel (per Marwyn), Pycelle is suspect of having participated to the animosity between Aerys and Rhaegar... and that animosity imo was more or less a direct cause for the Targaryen defeat during RR. >> I expect Rhaegar would have joined the war effort much sooner and the royalists might have responded much better and quicker than they did, had the relationship between King and crown prince not been strained.

If the Citadel is truly anti-magic and anti-Targaryen as per Marwyn's claims, and if they have been 'plotting' against the IT, then Lady Dustin's words about Maester Walys (and maesters in general) are given credence; thus there might be some truth in Rickard's alleged 'southron ambitions' after all....

As a side note, maesters are responsible for correspondence -- they are the ones to retrieve the ravens, and to send them off...Have we not in maester Walys a perfect culprit for the misdirection of Brandon, and the lack of communication between Lyanna and her family? I've wondered before if Ned's silence about Jon is not more due to Luwin's presence at Winterfell and a mistrust of maesters in general, than anything else... I mean, when and why was Walys dismissed?

....a last side not, about Jahaerys's death... am I the only one to think his death might not have been natural? and that his "weak" constitution was a convenient scapegoat?

EDIT: posted by accident before I was finished.

EDIT 2: to clarify:

We have Marwyn right out telling us that the Citadel is no friend of Magic and Targaryens, that it was good Aemon died before landing in Oldtown and that Dany is in danger.

If the downfall of House Targaryen was the end goal of the Citadel, it seems reasonable to think that the citadel and its maesters helped setting up the "game" for the Rebellion, the same way Varys and Littelfinger have done for the WotFK. And indeed, we have clues and hints pointing to a possible involvement of the maester's in the events during, and preluding Robert's rebellion (Lady Dustin's accusations, Pycelle's correspondence + his advice to Aerys right before the sack).

We have no such clues and hints pertaining to the events of Summerhall in particular, but it's not a stretch to assume the citadel was already working for the downfall of the House two decades before the Rebellion.

It is a very reasonable theory. The Citadel. They've said they have motives, they have means and opportunity.

Very interesting the idea that Eddard was so "silent wolf" because of his distrust of Maester Luwin.

I've read a theory explaining how Jon Snow ended up in the Night's Watch because Maester Luwin manipulated Cat. The motive was to send the Targaryen boy to swear the vows and make him renounce his possible claims. I don't remember which thread was.

Everything we know about Varys before he joined the small council we were told by either Varys or Illyrio. And didn't Martin say something along the lines "Varys is one of the most misunderstood characters" in asoiaf? Probably because it seems that 90% of the readers believe what he says.

Everyone who trusted Varys ended up screwed over, characters and readers.

That's the paradox of Lord Eunuch.

Sounds more and more like the "Red Wedding" massacre of its time to me, just with plenty dead Targaryens instead of Starks. Whatever you do, for fucks sake don't break political betrothals! People will be really pissed. Maybe even torch your Summer Castle while your whole family is feasting there. Alternatively Egg became just as mad as Aerys in his old age and torched the place himself, that's rather unlikely (hah!) though.

Maybe I'm not getting it right: Do you suggest that Olenna Redwyne might have something to do with it?

I mean, she is pissed off with the Targaryens because of a broken betrothal.

She's named Queen of Thrones (not of Roses) after all...

I like these theories, but I still think the one that says it was Aerys, Tywin and Pycelle works better. It is very well analysed. I think more info is needed to be a little away from speculation land. A+T+P hypothesis can work well with the Citadel hypothesis.

[glamourweaver]

I agree with everyone that's said it's going to be in the next D&E novel, although I was really looking forward to learning more about it in this book :( I can't wait to read about it though eventually.

Well not the "next" D&E novel - the next one concerns Dunk & Egg in the North where they travel after the events of the Mystery Knight. We've got 2 more Blackfyre Rebellions, & Maekar and Egg's entire reigns before that point!

[ambi76]

Maybe I'm not getting it right: Do you suggest that Olenna Redwyne might have something to do with it?

Well, only tongue in cheek, but wouldn't that be quite something. "Shut up! I killed Joffrey and it wasn't even the first time I killed a king!" As for mad Egg it's not so much that "everyone loves him" that seems to make it unlikely he will go totally bonkers, as that GRRM seems to really really love him. Oh wait ... :eek:

[apovsic]

I didin't read the whole tread and it's kind of offtopic, but still ... I read it somewhere on this forum that Gyldayn died at Summerhall. But then how could he wrote the famous passage in his book that is spilled with ink? Was he furiously writing when fire burned around him? And the book survived and was later found at Citadel? Eh?

[Ser Lepus]

I didin't read the whole tread and it's kind of offtopic, but still ... I read it somewhere on this forum that Gyldayn died at Summerhall. But then how could he wrote the famous passage in his book that is spilled with ink? Was he furiously writing when fire burned around him? And the book survived and was later found at Citadel? Eh?

Maybe he was killed to remove an eyewiness of what really happened, and as punishment for trying to put in on paper. Later, the Targaryen told everybody that he had died in the fire. The Maesters who found his text would know something was rotten in Denmark, but not exactly what.

[apovsic]

Maybe he was killed to remove an eyewiness of what really happened, and as punishment for trying to put in on paper. Later, the Targaryen told everybody that he had died in the fire. The Maesters who found his text would know something was rotten in Denmark, but not exactly what.

Hmm interesting. Maybe someone pour some poison in his five o'clock tea, when he just finished his book. And then, after he drank the tea, he fall on his book, outstretched, and knocking bottle of ink on his way down.

Sound like Agatha Christie story :D

[Ser Lepus]

Hmm interesting. Maybe someone pour some poison in his five o'clock tea, when he just finished his book. And then, after he drank the tea, he fall on his book, outstretched, and knocking bottle of ink on his way down.

Sound like Agatha Christie story :D

Nah, they would have burnt the book, if they had found it. Some high-ranking maester probably read the book, made a copy and ruined the page to avoid trouble with the crown.

[SeanF]

Well, only tongue in cheek, but wouldn't that be quite something. "Shut up! I killed Joffrey and it wasn't even the first time I killed a king!" As for mad Egg it's not so much that "everyone loves him" that seems to make it unlikely he will go totally bonkers, as that GRRM seems to really really love him. Oh wait ... :eek:

Egg's difficulty was that while the Smallfolk loved him, many of the nobility hated him, and the latter were the ones with the power.

[Syri0_F0rel]

Baby Rhaegar was replaced with a Blackfyre

[complexphoenix]

It is a very reasonable theory. The Citadel. They've said they have motives, they have means and opportunity.

Very interesting the idea that Eddard was so "silent wolf" because of his distrust of Maester Luwin.

I've read a theory explaining how Jon Snow ended up in the Night's Watch because Maester Luwin manipulated Cat. The motive was to send the Targaryen boy to swear the vows and make him renounce his possible claims. I don't remember which thread was.

Everyone who trusted Varys ended up screwed over, characters and readers.

That's the paradox of Lord Eunuch.

Maybe I'm not getting it right: Do you suggest that Olenna Redwyne might have something to do with it?

I mean, she is pissed off with the Targaryens because of a broken betrothal.

She's named Queen of Thrones (not of Roses) after all...

I like these theories, but I still think the one that says it was Aerys, Tywin and Pycelle works better. It is very well analysed. I think more info is needed to be a little away from speculation land. A+T+P hypothesis can work well with the Citadel hypothesis.

The Luwin theory seems wrong to me - joining the Watch was Jon's own notion, and Luwin brought it in front of Cat after Jon had already decided he wanted to do that.

As for Olenna, she specifically says that she herself put an end to her Targaryen betrothal, making me think that she manipulated Daeron the Gay into renouncing her. But she definitely wasn't upset about it.

[Winterfell is Burning]

As for Olenna, she specifically says that she herself put an end to her Targaryen betrothal, making me think that she manipulated Daeron the Gay into renouncing her. But she definitely wasn't upset about it.

Nope, Daeron refused her, and she was definitively bitter. Her telling people that she didn't wanted to marry a Prince to marry a dumbass Tyrell is just a way to cover it up.

[complexphoenix]

Nope, Daeron refused her, and she was definitively bitter. Her telling people that she didn't wanted to marry a Prince to marry a dumbass Tyrell is just a way to cover it up.

And you base this conclusion on.... what exactly? Where's the evidence? You sound awfully certain for someone offering no textual support for your position.

[Winterfell is Burning]

And you base this conclusion on.... what exactly? Where's the evidence? You sound awfully certain for someone offering no textual support for your position.

Uh, hadn't you heard that Daeron was gay and never married not only Olenna, but anyone? And who really refuses to marry a Targaryen prince to willingly choose a man she herself describes as an oaf and an idiot? Is pure logic. And the woman is known as the Queen of Thorns, even her nickname indicates she's bitter.

[complexphoenix]

Uh, hadn't you heard that Daeron was gay and never married not only Olenna, but anyone? And who really refuses to marry a Targaryen prince to willingly choose a man she herself describes as an oaf and an idiot? Is pure logic. And the woman is known as the Queen of Thorns, even her nickname indicates she's bitter.

Gee, maybe the same sort of woman who poisons her kingly grandson-in-law because she knows he's going to be a terrible husband?

What sort of woman wants to marry a gay man? Probably not Olenna. And the Lord of Highgarden is only one step in the hierarchy below a prince. Also, Luthor could give her children a large and powerful inheritance while Daeron was a third son. Olenna is nothing if not clear-eyed where such matters are concerned. Luthor was the better catch and she knew it.

[Lord Varys]

Olenna/the Redwynes could not have possibly have broken dared breaking a betrothal to a royal prince. That would have been disobedience ... or even treason.

Sure, Olenna could - for some reason - have manipulated Daeron into dumping her, but there is really no indication that she did that (nor do I see a motivation for such an action).

Daeron was second in line to the Iron Throne, and if the Ghost had not come up with her prophecy, Olenna could have pushed that her children by Daeron marry Jaehaerys' heirs. Hell, if Jaehaerys and Shaera had only had daughters, a son of Daeron and Olenna could have even sat the Iron Throne...