Theon Greyjoy is not gay/bisexual

[Cas Stark]

You are arguing against the strawman the thread starter created, not the people he is arguing against. I've never said that his dressing well was a feminine trait or implied that he was gay.

No, you mentioned his dream of Robb and his thoughts, neither of which support the idea he's gay.

[WinterRaven]

Let me get this straight (no pun intended). Someone, in the thread about Cersei being transgender, added that Theon was homosexual, and you thought it needed to be seriously addressed? OK. Good job. He's not.

In the next episode: Tywin Lannister wasn't a communist.

Lol. :commie:

[Cas Stark]

Let me get this straight (no pun intended). Someone, in the thread about Cersei being transgender, added that Theon was homosexual, and you thought it needed to be seriously addressed? OK. Good job. He's not.

In the next episode: Tywin Lannister wasn't a communist.

That's just awesome. You should totally start a thread that Tywin Lannnister was a communist. It could be epic.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Nothing in the text puts Theon Greyjoy as gay at all. Granted, GRRM doesn't throw gay in your face the way HBO does, but even considering his way of writing, which usually implies rather than outright states homosexuality, there's nothing to go on with Theon. I would actually like Theon more (and I'm a fan) if he had some kinda crush on Robb, but he doesn't. He's a throughly hetero dudebro. He's not a JonCon, a Rhaegar, a Loras, or a Blackfish, upon whom homosexual behavior might be considered to be likely. Theon likes banging girls. THAT is canon. His gayness is not.

Um, not to detract from your argument, but here are a few lines we hear about Renly and Loras:

Renly - She came to my bed a maid

Stannis - With you she's liable to stay that way

Jaime - “Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I’ll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.”

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Honey, Theon is deeper in the closet than Jon Connington.

Jon isn't in the closet. Jon only has more important things in his mind right now. Also, anyone making a negative comment about that to his face would make this idiot person get punched on the face at once.

(and even though my beliefs don't allow me to gamble, I would bet everything I have that he was Myles Toyne's lover).

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

@Universal Sword Donor-

I was comparing GRRM's treatment of Renly and Loras' (obviously super gay) relationship with HBO's, which had to show us chest shaving. One is more obviously gay than the other.

Since I came to the books early, it actually took a reread (of AGOT-ASOS) for me to pick up on the gay hints. HBO wasted no time in going right into the Loras/Renly thing.

[Taenqyrhae]

No, you mentioned his dream of Robb and his thoughts, neither of which support the idea he's gay.

It does support the idea that he might be gay, combined with other things. I dream about people I am attracted to far more than anyone else, even though I very rarely have sexual dreams. I can only remember one dream I've had in the last 15 years that involved a male friend - I dreamed my friend, who used to date my ex-wife before we got back together, was moving to Phoenix to marry her…so in that case, it was still a dream about someone I was attracted to.

There's no proof, but it's definitely a possibility as there is absolutely 0 textual evidence to prove that he is 100% heterosexual. Any ideas about Theon's sexuality will be speculation, based on context and our personal knowledge.

[Taenqyrhae]

Um, not to detract from your argument, but here are a few lines we hear about Renly and Loras:

Renly - She came to my bed a maid

Stannis - With you she's liable to stay that way

Jaime - “Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I’ll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.”

That implies that others think they may be homosexual. It doesn't prove that either character was homosexual. I've heard rumors that I was gay, I'm almost certain that I am not.

If we are going to use what other characters say about the character, Theon's own father questions his manliness, to his face. If Stannis implying Renly is gay is solid evidence that Renly is gay, what does it say when Theon's own father does the same??

[Cas Stark]

It does support the idea that he might be gay, combined with other things. I dream about people I am attracted to far more than anyone else, even though I very rarely have sexual dreams. I can only remember one dream I've had in the last 15 years that involved a male friend - I dreamed my friend, who used to date my ex-wife before we got back together, was moving to Phoenix to marry her…so in that case, it was still a dream about someone I was attracted to.

There's no proof, but it's definitely a possibility as there is absolutely 0 textual evidence to prove that he is 100% heterosexual. Any ideas about Theon's sexuality will be speculation, based on context and our personal knowledge.

I suggest you reread the dream passage. It doesn't support any such thing. It's a prophetic dream, Robb and his wolf do end up dead, just like in the dream. At best, it's a dream where Theon's guilt is manifesting itself. Robb shows up at a table full of DEAD PEOPLE. There is no sexual subtext there. Good grief.

And maybe you want to think, not about your own dreams, but about how dreams are used in the novels.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

In the topic of Theon's being gay, this is the same argument that "Lemore is Ashara because we haven't been told what is the colour of her eyes".

Sexuality isn't a sentence, people are not gay until proved otherwise. That's, imo, a bit offensive. I've actually met a person, a LGTB activist who said that all women are potentially lesbians, and she was going to try to "convert" as many as she wanted because society had kept them from realising who they really are. That's not just idiot but borderline harassment.

Now, Theon is a fictional character, but being a fictional character doesn't allow us to assume "oh, s/he's gay because we haven't been told s/he isn't". The same arguments are said for the Blackfish: he's gay because we haven't seen him with a woman and he didn't want to marry. Well, I suppose that makes me a lesbian because I have no girlfriend and I said no to a marriage proposal once :dunno: Human sexuality isn't that... strict. There is more to not having sex or feeling an attraction to define a person. I remember when I was younger, there was an actress I looooved and I loooooved her face. I suppose that would mean I'm a lesbian. Well, I'm not. I cannot have sex with woman, that's not my thing. :dunno:

[INCBlackbird]

I see nothing feminine about wanting to dress well. Nobody other than the Ironborn imply anything about his sexuality because of that, either. The Ironborn are clearly a very homophobic culture, more so than even the rest of Westeros. Those cultures often associate weakness with femininity (in medieval times, "girl" did not mean female, it meant "weak"), and so they are trying to say he's grown soft and weak by implying he is feminine. I don't take that as any sign that Theon might be gay, though it can definitely explain why he would have that aspect of himself so thoroughly repressed.

He does appear to like strong, aggressive women, but that does not make him submissive. It could mean, however, that he is attracted to traits that are often associated with masculinity. A woman who has a repressed desire for other women might find herself attracted to feminine-seeming men without even realizing why.

Archery??? Theon DOES get praise for his archery skills, I remember one point where someone said they would not be in the trouble they were in if all the warriors had Theon's skills with a bow. Cleftjaw praises Theon for his martial ability and tells him he has no doubt that Theon is a brave warrior. There is absolutely nothing historical about the bow being considered a feminine weapon - the only connection I can think of is that the Amazons were said to burn off their right breast so they could draw a bow - this actually shows that ancient people knew that it's not practical for a woman to use a bow. This REALLY seems like stretching.

The reminding himself of how many women he's bedded as a reassurance of his manliness is one of the things that makes me think he might be gay. "Getting lots of girls" is not something at the top of the list of indications that someone is a "Manly Man" amongst the predominately heterosexual. In fact, being TOO into chasing women has been seen as an un-manly trait by some cultures - in some versions of Norse mythology, they believed there were two places you could go in the afterlife. If you were a brave warrior, you got to go to an afterlife where you fought all day and drank all night. If you preferred chasing women over fighting, you went to an afterlife that did not have the fighting, but it did have the drinking all night, and it was also the afterlife all the women went to.

All these are terrible arguments for Theon being gay. I have also never made any of these arguments, which makes me wonder why you are bringing them up in a thread addressed at me. Are you trying to make it look like people who think Theon are gay all do so for bad reasons?

My reasons, as I mentioned before, are based on a gestalt of all of Theon's actions and thoughts. He reminds me so much of a friend of mine from high school who came out in his 20s, and of stories of my uncle when he was young, and other gay people I've known. I think GRRM is deliberately painting the character this way, I don't get any repressed sexuality vibes from any of the other POV characters, but Theon sets off my gaydar something fierce.

Here's an analogy - let's say you had a character who acted in ways that were indicative of being abused as a child. The text never said that the character was beaten as a child, nor did the character ever reminisce about it, they just do and say things that remind the reader of other people abused as children. That could lead one to say "I'm not sure, but Character sure seems like they were abused as a child, they remind me of every child abuse survivor I have ever met." That is not conclusive proof that the person was abused, but the fact that there is no hard evidence of that doesn't invalidate the opinion of the person who sees this.

Theon has a clear fixation about his clothes his looks, he even wears jewelry, such things are even seen as feminine in our world. And Theon gets mocked for it, his father calls him “whore”, “Ned stark’s daughter” and indeed weakness is considered a synonym of female (by the ironborn in particular) and Theon is insecure about this, another thing for to the deny at all cost and hide behind acting macho and what he considers “manly”

Asha litarly says “I like to be on top” to which Theon thinks “where has this wench been all my life?” if that’s not a sign of being sexually submissive I don’t know what is.

It might have been see as un-manly in some cultures but the point is that Theon sees it as manly. He is both trying to prove to himself how grown up he is and how manly he is in that quote, because those are the things he has insecurities about.

This thread is not addresses specifically at you, this thread is about why I think Theon is not gay and all the arguments are mentioned are the ones I have gotten before from people who claimed he was gay. I never said they were your arguments I specifically said they were arguments from the tumblr people I argued with about this.

So because Theon reminds you of gay people, he must be gay? Because a sexuality defines what a person acts like/is like? I do not get your reasoning here. Everyone is different sexuality has nothing to do with that…

To address your analogy: what are ways that people act that indicate they have been abused. Everyone responds differently.

Now you mentioned that there are subtle hints in the text, can you give me a passage with such a subtle hint?

[John Doe]

Many men like dominant women. It has nothing to do with being submessive and being submessive has nothing to do with beig gay.

[RoamingRonin]

The Others take this forum.

[John Doe]

The Others are gay.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I will never understand the fascination people feel for a fictional character to be gay. It's like, if it isn't gay, then is not interesting enough. And yes, I've seen THAT being said. I blame Ryan Murphy.

Guy, we straight people also have problems... hard rough problems...

[John Doe]

I will never understand the fascination people feel for a fictional character to be gay. It's like, if it isn't gay, then is not interesting enough. And yes, I've seen THAT being said. I blame Ryan Murphy.

Guy, we straight people also have problems... hard rough problems...

Yeah. I guess Brynden Tully is black, I doubt the contrary was mentioned.

[INCBlackbird]

So, are you saying I am racist and sexist because I care about racism and sexism? That's ridiculous.

I'm coining a new term. I'm going to start labelling some people "SJC"s, or "Social Justice Cravens". They are people who are afraid of social justice, either because they fear losing their privilege, or because they hate minorities, or just because they are afraid of challenging societies prejudices. They mock anyone they see taking an interest in social justice and project their own racism and sexism onto those who are pointing out their backward beliefs. I think SJCs are a really big problem on the internet.

wait, I never said that you were one of them. you asked me what they are, I responded with an explanation. are you admitting that you are one of them? if so, that explains a lot.

to answer your question. social justice warriors don't care about racism of sexism, I actually do... or well, let's put it this way. they care about racism of sexism in the sense that they want to keep it alive so they can keep using people suffering from it as a human shield. they want these problems to exist because without them they can't claim to be victims of oppression that are entitled to free money (lots of them have donation buttons) and in general attention. I care about racism and sexism in the sense that I want it to go away, not keep it alive!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Men who like women to be on top arent' gay. They're rather tired or lazy :P

[INCBlackbird]

Many men like dominant women. It has nothing to do with being submessive and being submessive has nothing to do with beig gay.

1. the point is that it is considered feminine in many society, especially midieval ones. domincance is supposed to be a male thing. and yes liking dominant women has everything to do with being submissive, being submissive is the oppesite of being dominant so if you like to being dominated by a woman during sex that means you like being submissive during sex.

2. my point is that people give this as a reason for Theon being gay and I say it has indeed nothing to do with being gay.

[Taenqyrhae]

Theon has a clear fixation about his clothes his looks, he even wears jewelry, such things are even seen as feminine in our world. And Theon gets mocked for it, his father calls him “whore”, “Ned stark’s daughter” and indeed weakness is considered a synonym of female (by the ironborn in particular) and Theon is insecure about this, another thing for to the deny at all cost and hide behind acting macho and what he considers “manly”

Asha litarly says “I like to be on top” to which Theon thinks “where has this wench been all my life?” if that’s not a sign of being sexually submissive I don’t know what is.

It might have been see as un-manly in some cultures but the point is that Theon sees it as manly. He is both trying to prove to himself how grown up he is and how manly he is in that quote, because those are the things he has insecurities about.

This thread is not addresses specifically at you, this thread is about why I think Theon is not gay and all the arguments are mentioned are the ones I have gotten before from people who claimed he was gay. I never said they were your arguments I specifically said they were arguments from the tumblr people I argued with about this.

So because Theon reminds you of gay people, he must be gay? Because a sexuality defines what a person acts like/is like? I do not get your reasoning here. Everyone is different sexuality has nothing to do with that…

To address your analogy: what are ways that people act that indicate they have been abused. Everyone responds differently.

Now you mentioned that there are subtle hints in the text, can you give me a passage with such a subtle hint?

This and other posts make me think you are very sexually naive, and probably don't have much contact with gay people.

I had a girlfriend in the 90s who was very submissive. I didn't mind, I'm definitely not submissive myself and she was very attractive - but the sex got boring after a while. Then I met a girl who was very sexual aggressive. She liked being both dominating and submissive in bed. Even though being submissive wasn't my thing, I went along with it for her benefit when she liked, and I really enjoyed her company - even when she was playing submissive, she made it interesting and was not the "just lie there and take it" type. My thoughts were along the same lines as Theon's. It didn't mean I was submissive, just that I was bored of submissive women. I would imagine that Theon, if purely heterosexual, would also be very bored with submissive women, more so than I was because he's been getting it on more often than I had at that point, and because pretty much all the women a noble beds are going to be submissive.

But again, I never said that Theon seemed like he might be gay because of any perceived femininity or submissiveness, so I don't know why we are going here, or why you're asking for textual quotes for hints that Theon might be gay when I already explained it was not any specific hints, but a combination of his character as a whole, just like when I can tell a person is gay IRL it's usually not because they said or did something that could imply they were gay. They just seemed gay, and usually I was right. I'll be surprised if the series ends without GRRM making it more clear that Theon had some repressed sexuality issues (whether they were gayness or something else is unclear). I could be wrong, who knows? I do think my arguments that Theon might be gay are based more soundly on the actual character as written than your arguments that he could not possibly be even a little gay, which seem to be based more on the fact you identify strongly with the character in a way that goes beyond the text.