Theon Greyjoy is not gay/bisexual

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Well, it's kind of like correcting someone's grammar. It's very arbitrary but the people correcting can legitimately be trying to help someone look less like a fool. So by telling people that they're wrong about this interpretation, it's really just helping them not look foolish.

Well its their interpretation, so they aren't wrong about it. I think if someone is willing to believe it they're not likely to care what people think about their interpretation.

[LordStoneheart]

Well its their interpretation, so they aren't wrong about it. I think if someone is willing to believe it they're not likely to care what people think about their interpretation.

It is very possible for an interpretation to be incorrect and being dogmatic about it doesn't really matter.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well its their interpretation, so they aren't wrong about it. I think if someone is willing to believe it they're not likely to care what people think about their interpretation.

Depends on the discussion. If I interpret that Catelyn is a villain, then I'm already interpreting a lot of things wrong. I can think Cat is a villain, but is she?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

It is very possible for an interpretation to be incorrect and being dogmatic about it doesn't really matter.

Yeah but its only a problem if they are dogmatic about it. Which isn't right.

But if they aren't then is it a big deal?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Depends on the discussion. If I interpret that Catelyn is a villain, then I'm already interpreting a lot of things wrong. I can think Cat is a villain, but is she?

I'm only referring to sexualities. Sorry if I never made that clear.

There is just such a wide spectrum of sexualities that it seems to me that it is impossible that a character is 100% heterosexual.

And it doesn't really change the story that much right? Catelyn being a villian is a big change :P

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm only referring to sexualities. Sorry if I never made that clear.

There is just such a wide spectrum of sexualities that it seems to me that it is impossible that a character is 100% heterosexual.

And it doesn't really change the story that much right? Catelyn being a villian is a big change :P

Theon being gay would also change a lot about himself: his identity, how he saw himself, feeling less than his brothers or uncles, etc. And, considering Theon's arc is about his own identity, it might be a factor. In this case, it isn't.

The thing is that Martin writes his gay characters are very adapted people. He's not writing about how they have to struggle in a homophobic culture, that's not the theme of the books (so far). Renly, Loras or Jon aren't targeted because they are gay, nor they feel inadequate. Renly and Loras hid in the same way many men hide their mistress (specially after Renly married Loras's sister), not because the Faith would chase him. And Jon never spoke to Rhaegar because Rhaegar was his prince: we can't tell if he actually had a lover during his time in Essos.

[Hangover of the Morning]

That's a lot of text for something that's blatantly obvious and that 99% of readers probably never questioned.

EDIT: If some random ultra minority of people are certain that Theon is hiding in a closet, so what? Let them. All they are doing is trumpeting their own stupidity inability to read the books objectively without projecting their own desires.

It's a relatively harmless fantasy. Besides not having a dick, Theon is also, you know, fictional. This slander is not going to ruin his marriage or anything.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

So this is what scraping the bottom of the barrel is. Hmmm

[teemo]

I didn't even know this was a thing until I saw the title of this. Nothing about Theon in my many, many re-reads has struck me as gay or bi-sexual.

[Mithras]

I will never understand the fascination people feel for a fictional character to be gay. It's like, if it isn't gay, then is not interesting enough. And yes, I've seen THAT being said. I blame Ryan Murphy.

Guy, we straight people also have problems... hard rough problems...

Absolutely. Just ask Victarion, right?

[purrl1]

I think part of the problem is that people tend to conflate disparate factors.

For example, how a person expresses a gender role in society is not synonymous with sexual identity. The example of the "metrosexual" was posted earlier. Also, a girl can be a "tomboy" without being the slightest bit sexually attracted to women. In-text, Brienne is a prime example of this (Arya is too young and traumatized for there to be any certainty about her).

In mainland Westeros, elaborate clothing of colorful silks and velvets is an expression of class, rather than gender. Men like Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister wear ornate garments to display their power. Randall Tarly aside, no one on the mainland thinks a man less manly for wearing velvet and cloth of gold.

The Ironborn rejection of such attire as effiminate is a cultural difference. Theon spent the formative years of his adolescence on the mainland, not the islands, so for him, ornate clothing signifies his rank as a nobleman, and heir to the islands. So, he is not enacting or expressing femininity according to mainland culture or in his own mind. However, even if he did enact feminine gender, that would not make him gay. To be gay, he would need to be sexually attracted to men. There's no indication in text that he is.

The other conflation that occurs is equating affection or friendship with sexual desire. I hope very much that all of you have family members and friends that you love dearly but do not desire at all! While it does seem that Ned and Robert had a "bromance", the way Theon thinks of Robb doesn't appear to me to be anything other than as a friend and a brother. We don't get the evocative prose from Theon thinking about Robb that we see when Jon Con thinks about Rhaegar or Myles, or Ned contemplates Robert. Certainly Theon doesn't express grief for the Young Wolf in the poetic manner which Loras speaks of Renly.

Honestly, I don't know whether to be vexed by or feel sorry for people who turn all textual relationships into Teh Sexxx. No, Jon Snow and Arya do not have a sexy relationship. No, Robb and Theon don't either.

Next, there's Theon's misogyny. Let me be perfectly clear: misogyny does not make a man gay. In the case of Theon (and other characters), it means that while he sees women as desirable sexual objects, the emphasis is on "object". He does not value women much as persons. His primary emotional ties are to males, altho' he isn't sexually attracted to men.

Finally, there's the Ramsay/Reek factor. This is truly appalling. It's unclear from the text whether Ramsay has raped Theon, but he has definitiely sexually mutilated him. In either case, there was no desire on Theon's part. The notion that Theon is gay because he was sexually abused and tortured is as disgusting as the idea that a lesbian can be made straight by being raped by men. People, please don't go there.

No, I don't believe that it's a valid reading of the text to see Theon as gay. Jon Con & Myles Toyne, Renly & Loras, yes. Theon, no.

Now, of course, a reader can disregard the text and simply say, "Well, I just have a feeling." OK, fine. You have a feeling. Death of the author, reader's response, no such thing as a wrong answer, yadda yadda yadda. You say Theon reminds you of your friend so-and-so, who is gay. I say he reminds me of co-worker so-and-so, who is straight. We reach an impasse because we have had different experiences and known different people. So how about we just let Theon--and GRRM--be the one who decides which team he's batting for, if any? It may be moot, anyhow, as the released chapter of TWOW doesn't look promising for him.

[Guess who's back]

Wow. Whats happening in these forums nowadays? Threads about Cercei being trans, Theon being gay. What's next?

[Jslay427]

Theon may be considered to have some feminine traits by Iron Islands standards.

[Sparrow spoiler]

why even bother? stupid discussion

[Michael Snow]

So this is what scraping the bottom of the barrel is. Hmmm

My thoughts exactly.

I'll not pay any more attention to this thread's founding wretch, who sees taking a stand on issues of social justice as being symptomatic of a 'plague' originating from 'tumblr'.

Disgusting.

[INCBlackbird]

My thoughts exactly.

I'll not pay any more attention to this thread's founding wretch, who sees taking a stand on issues of social justice as being symptomatic of a 'plague' originating from 'tumblr'.

Disgusting.

you are aware I can read this right?

either way you must not have paid attention to what I wrote...

[Primalsplit]

I don't know where did that thought come from. But if Theon the womanizer is gay, then Robert is a gaylord; as the internet language puts it.

Maybe he could be considered "girlish" as your avarage medieval age man would like to call it. But really. This is not a discussion at all, no disrespect.

[Universal Sword Donor]

That implies that others think they may be homosexual. It doesn't prove that either character was homosexual. I've heard rumors that I was gay, I'm almost certain that I am not.

If we are going to use what other characters say about the character, Theon's own father questions his manliness, to his face. If Stannis implying Renly is gay is solid evidence that Renly is gay, what does it say when Theon's own father does the same??

It means you're equating manliness with heterosexuality, which is a stupid comparison to make. What Theon's father said and what Stannis/Jaime said are not comparable. Theon's being called a soft bitch. Jaime and Stannis are saying Renly/Loras like to have sex with men.

[TrueOrFalse]

My thoughts exactly.

I'll not pay any more attention to this thread's founding wretch, who sees taking a stand on issues of social justice as being symptomatic of a 'plague' originating from 'tumblr'.

Disgusting.

Uhh, that's not what INCBlackbird was saying at all. I think you should probably go back and read her posts again because you obviously haven't understood what she was actually saying.

And "disgusting"? Seriously?! :rolleyes:

You're outraged over something you haven't even read properly.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

^Agree. Actually, it's more offensive to assume that Theon is gay because he has some feminine traits and believes he should have died with Robb. And that's quite hypocritical if it comes from Tumblr, a place that it's like a fortress for the defence of minorities and critic of stereotypes.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: the need of some people to make a character gay is borderline morbid. Apparently, we've all returned to our childhoods in which if two people talk each other, they are in love, and as we're inclusive now, then it's not a men and a female, but if two guys are close, then they are secretly gay and repressing feelings. The only thing needed here is the giggles and we're done. Also, it's not like ASOIAF don't have enough of gay characters.

I blame Ryan Murphy and in a way, JKRowling. I come from the fandom of Glee. While I do enjoy Glee very much, the "need" to make everything gay was what I think it ended up sucking the quality of the show (well, that and many other stuff...). We have this one character that was gay (amazingly portrayed by Chris Colfer), and later, as two girls made a joke about them being lovers, then "omg, they're so cute, they totally should hook up and love each other"... and the pair was born. They were turned into gay from one season to the other just because apparently, two people can't be friends without having sexual feelings for each other. And later, every discussion orbited around them being accurately portrayed or not and everybody had to tip-toe around them so their feelings wouldn't be hurt. At the end, when a character was cast as straight, fans were DISAPPOINTED. Yeah...

Same goes for Dumbledore. He couldn't simply be friends with Grindewald and have the same ambitions. Nope. He had to be gay for him... The only way to be a loyal follower is being in love.

Assuming one person is gay, because "s/he seems to be" is, imo, rude. Even if such person is a fictional character. Human sexuality isn't that simple.