Hangover of the Morning Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 ^^^I also don't understand this new bizarre trend and it certainly does more harm to social equality than good. It's IMHO just people exploiting this otherwise moral cause to advance their own selfish agenda. I've never been very much involved in any fandom (until ASoIaF) so this trend kinda slipped under my radar until I binge watched few episodes of BBC's Sherlock. I googled the show to find out if there were more episodes coming and also wanted to read some reviews and opinions. We all know and loved the Sherlock/Watson bromance from the books and the show definitely played with it a lot and turned it up a notch but I got completely flabbergasted after I found that almost everything on internet is making John and Sherlock being lovers an absolute fact. I honestly felt like a complete idiot at first for missing such an apparently obvious fact. I loved the episode with Irene Adler in particular and only after reading how everybody was deciphering every scene between Sherlock and Irene as it being an obvious proclamation of "Sherlock's love for Watson", it hit me that maybe I wasn't the idiot after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted November 23, 2014 Author Share Posted November 23, 2014 ^Agree. Actually, it's more offensive to assume that Theon is gay because he has some feminine traits and believes he should have died with Robb. And that's quite hypocritical if it comes from Tumblr, a place that it's like a fortress for the defence of minorities and critic of stereotypes. I said it before, and I'll say it again: the need of some people to make a character gay is borderline morbid. Apparently, we've all returned to our childhoods in which if two people talk each other, they are in love, and as we're inclusive now, then it's not a men and a female, but if two guys are close, then they are secretly gay and repressing feelings. The only thing needed here is the giggles and we're done. Also, it's not like ASOIAF don't have enough of gay characters. I blame Ryan Murphy and in a way, JKRowling. I come from the fandom of Glee. While I do enjoy Glee very much, the "need" to make everything gay was what I think it ended up sucking the quality of the show (well, that and many other stuff...). We have this one character that was gay (amazingly portrayed by Chris Colfer), and later, as two girls made a joke about them being lovers, then "omg, they're so cute, they totally should hook up and love each other"... and the pair was born. They were turned into gay from one season to the other just because apparently, two people can't be friends without having sexual feelings for each other. And later, every discussion orbited around them being accurately portrayed or not and everybody had to tip-toe around them so their feelings wouldn't be hurt. At the end, when a character was cast as straight, fans were DISAPPOINTED. Yeah... Same goes for Dumbledore. He couldn't simply be friends with Grindewald and have the same ambitions. Nope. He had to be gay for him... The only way to be a loyal follower is being in love. Assuming one person is gay, because "s/he seems to be" is, imo, rude. Even if such person is a fictional character. Human sexuality isn't that simple. I wanted to say that I agree completely with this! and this is what I've been trying to say but you said it way better. I don't watch glee, so I can't comment on that, though I have a soft spot for ryan murphy because I think american horror story asylum is pretty much the best thing I have ever seen in my life. about the dumbledore thing though. I actually liked that. because I do think it is important to have gay characters (not for representation as the sjw always say but to normalize it.) I like that in the case of dumbledore we don't even know his sexuality until the very end, it's not important, there's no attention drawn to it. which is how it should be, it's just a state of being, not something that a characters entire being revolves arround. tbh, I don't blame either ryan murphy or JK Rowling, I don't blame anyone in particular but rather I blame shipping teenagers who, as you said think that whenever two men talk to eachother they must be gay for eachother. though, I have no problem with shipping in itself, people do what they want. it becomes a problem when people start confusing their shipping fantasies with reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 It's nothing new, fandom has been doing stuff like that for almost 50 years. People wrote slash fiction about Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock during the first season of Star Trek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I really don't see why people reimagining characters as a different race or sexuality or gender is a problem, and it's their imagination, so doesn't really require evidence. When they try to impose it as canon and they rely on stereotypes for their evidence, then that clearly isn'r right, but if they aren't is it a problem? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 There was some popular post in tumblr (where else?) about how hating shippers is an attack of feminism or whatever nonsense, but this post is well, this explains: No, 'Shippers don't care that the plot is non-existant, the pace plods, and everything sucks. They only care that the main characters are sucking each other. It doesn't matter that Spike tried to rape Buffy, and in a shocking show of lack of continuity and lazy writing, Buffy has Spike babysitting her sister the next day after the attempted rape, because 'Shippers know that Spike and Buffy belong together. Just like how Angel and Buffy belong together. And like how Angel and Cordy belong together. Never mind that Mutant Enemy is recycling the vampire-whine/dumb bimbo romance three times over. It's love, baby, forever. Drowning in rancid kerosene is a better fate than hanging out on a fan board nowadays.One of the worst batch of 'Shippers are the Tara/Willow lesboshippers. I never understand how Tara and Willow are supposed to be representative of lesbian lovers. Two girls talking in high-pitched girly voices playing with kittens and holding hands as flowers fall around them - this is an examplary lesbian relationship? Sounds like Kiki and Chiko doing schoolgirl tripping to me. So Tara died. Big deal. She's not interesting when she is alive, and I don't miss her when she's dead, I'm just glad that I don't have to look at her thick-lidded cow-like moo-moo eyes anymore. But across the boards from the Kitten Boards to the dark reaches of Bad TV Plot Hell, there is an uproar the day after Tara got shot on TV, with crazy fans accusing Joss Whedon of homophobia QFT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 "But across the boards from the Kitten Boards to the dark reaches of Bad TV Plot Hell, there is an uproar the day after Tara got shot on TV, with crazy fans accusing Joss Whedon of homophobia." Iconic tbh. Now that is an example of taking it to far :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Iconic tbh. Now that is an example of taking it to far :dunno: IKR? Ryan Murphy has been accused of the hating lesbians, even though he works with known lesbian actresses and writers, as another case. Either way, to stay (kinda) OT, I can't recall if GRRM has been called homophobic, which I think he hasn't. I know he has been praised for including male gays characters in a relationship, but still, it took him 15 years to have a pov. I think he has kinda said that it's not easy for him to write those scenes, nor he will do it because fans want him to. Nevertheless, if he had wanted Theon being gay, he would have made him. Simple as that. ETA; talked too soon... and yes, this site has good analysis, but at the same time, they took the "SJW" to the extreme. http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/94646564700/the-hells-with-grrms-recent-words-about-there-will-be (and before someone calls me anything, I'm putting the "SJW" in between the ""s. My problem with the site is that they want GRRM, ASOIAF and HBO being leaders of the cause and fight for minorities, when they have no obligation to do it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted November 23, 2014 Author Share Posted November 23, 2014 "But across the boards from the Kitten Boards to the dark reaches of Bad TV Plot Hell, there is an uproar the day after Tara got shot on TV, with crazy fans accusing Joss Whedon of homophobia." Iconic tbh. Now that is an example of taking it to far :dunno: and those are sjw, though, that's still a light form of sjws tbh. there's way worse out there. yesterday I saw an sjw post stating that "milk is a tool of white supremacy/imperialism" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 It's nothing new, fandom has been doing stuff like that for almost 50 years. People wrote slash fiction about Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock during the first season of Star Trek. Indeed and in ASoIaF (other than Renley & Loras, duh) Jon & Sam fill the Kirk & Spock, Frodo & Sam, Marcus & Dom (Gears of War), lets pretend the bromance is something more for giggles niche. I don't know how anyone can try and project this onto Theon? Dude was a sad individual with no sense of home who tried to find it in a woman's genitals and then became sexless for his troubles - it's not really the same as the easy to make fun of male bonding type characters mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 TV Renly and Loras are not 'more gay' than the book versions. They are more cliched. There's a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Renly and Loras are so terribly depicted in the show that at some times I feel glad Jon has been cut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 IKR? Ryan Murphy has been accused of the hating lesbians, even though he works with known lesbian actresses and writers, as another case. Either way, to stay (kinda) OT, I can't recall if GRRM has been called homophobic, which I think he hasn't. I know he has been praised for including male gays characters in a relationship, but still, it took him 15 years to have a pov. I think he has kinda said that it's not easy for him to write those scenes, nor he will do it because fans want him to. Nevertheless, if he had wanted Theon being gay, he would have made him. Simple as that. ETA; talked too soon... and yes, this site has good analysis, but at the same time, they took the "SJW" to the extreme. http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/94646564700/the-hells-with-grrms-recent-words-about-there-will-be (and before someone calls me anything, I'm putting the "SJW" in between the ""s. My problem with the site is that they want GRRM, ASOIAF and HBO being leaders of the cause and fight for minorities, when they have no obligation to do it) Yea, I agree - that article is kind of rude, I find. The point of ASoIaF is to tell a story that is set in a mostly paternal fantastic universe - not to champion this or that social right. If you want a book or show that champions a social issue you are into, read a book that does or watch a show that does. I think it;s just to do with popularity - when anything becomes popular, all these external issues and opinions try and latch onto it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Renly and Loras are so terribly depicted in the show that at some times I feel glad Jon has been cutAye, Renly was the least well served by the show, omission would probably be a better fate than 80's frat comedy stock gay characterdom. I mean...AFRAID OF THE SIGHT OF BLOOD FFS.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Aye, Renly was the least well served by the show, omission would probably be a better fate than 80's frat comedy stock gay characterdom.I mean...AFRAID OF THE SIGHT OF BLOOD FFS.... I DO KNOW HOW REPRODUCTION WORKS WHAT ARE THOSE BOOBS? I BETTER GET DRUNK INSTEAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I DO KNOW HOW REPRODUCTION WORKS WHAT ARE THOSE BOOBS? I BETTER GET DRUNK INSTEADi would like to respond to this post, but I am gay tv character and need someone dominant to decide on my reaction for me. Meanwhile I will concentrate on looking fabulous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobmartell Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I don't even know where the idea Theon as a gay or bisexual man comes from, even after reading the thread. It's bizarre and a complete misreading of pretty much everything in the text.This. Not only a misreading of text but a misuse of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 This. Not only a misreading of text but a misuse of time.If we're ascribing values to time spent, though, a website dedicated to discussions of fictional characters from a fantasy series is probably not the best bang-for-bucks starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Well, to keep it OT, has any other character kept his/her homosexuality hidden or deny it? Putting aside the fact that mostly men HAVE to marry to have more children. I can't remember one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Well, to keep it OT, has any other character kept his/her homosexuality hidden or deny it? Putting aside the fact that mostly men HAVE to marry to have more children. I can't remember one.There seems to be no Judeo-christian hangover re: homosexuality in the series. The tv show has left a lot of people assuming it's there, just under the surface, but imo few characters seemed as comfortable in their skin as Renly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Well, to keep it OT, has any other character kept his/her homosexuality hidden or deny it? Putting aside the fact that mostly men HAVE to marry to have more children. I can't remember one. No, I don't think that 'coming out of the closet' is an issue that ASoIaF deals with at all. Re show Loras and Renly - they have to make them accessible to a wide range of viewers. They may be cliche' gay but so are most TV gay characters. Renly and Loras in the books are so discretely gay (as I suspect they would have to have been in the world presented and considering their stations in life) that their relationship is hard to notice. There seems to be no Judeo-christian hangover re: homosexuality in the series. The tv show has left a lot of people assuming it's there, just under the surface, but imo few characters seemed as comfortable in their skin as Renly. The show has to pander to Judeo-Christian sensibilities also, to make sense to the broad section of it's viewer base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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