(TWOIAF Spoilers) Bloodraven almost as ruthless as Tywin

[Til]

Tywin's savaging of the Riverlands alone is worse than Bloodraven. He commanded Gregor, Lorch and the Bloody Mummers to go out and rape, kill and burn all the lords and smallfolk they could find. The individual killings that Bloodraven is responsible for pales before the wanton slaughter and horror that Tywin ordered. And that's not even counting the Sack of King's Landing, the ordered murders of Rhaenys and Aegon, the extirpation of the Reynes and Tarbecks, the gang rape of Tysha, the mental abuse of Tyrion, the Red Wedding, etc.

Bloodraven was a ruthless guy, but he has nothing on Tywin.

[Fire Eater]

Because he confessed.

Except that confession was given after being thrown into the black cells, and he wasn't even given a trial. Ned is entitled to trial, the confession didn't come on the night of Cersei's coup, but days after. There was nothing that could have stopped them from giving Ned a trial.

[Lady Barbrey]

If Bloodraven is a greenseer, he got glimpses of the future well before he wed a weirwood. Has anyone considered his complete enmity to the Blackfyre line, and the murder of the last one, was because he saw that bloodline in some way playing havoc with a positive end game? That's what I thought when we found out why he was sent to the wall. He's a smart man; he would know Egg would have to banish him. He did it anyway because it was important.

Either Bloodraven is far more evil than Tywin or far better. We don't know his endgame yet. But while I see ruthlessness commensurate with the age Bloodraven lives in, I don't see psychopathy. Tywin was a psychopath. Not as bad as Ramsay, true, but it only takes one bad scene like Tysha's rape to scream psychopath at us. I miss Tywin as a character but there is no doubt in my mind Tyrion did the world a huge favor.

[John Doe]

Except that confession was given after being thrown into the black cells, and he wasn't even given a trial. Ned is entitled to trial, the confession didn't come on the night of Cersei's coup, but days after. There was nothing that could have stopped them from giving Ned a trial.

You usually get thrown into a cell after being arrested after being accused for a crime.

[John Doe]

Tywin's savaging of the Riverlands alone is worse than Bloodraven. He commanded Gregor, Lorch and the Bloody Mummers to go out and rape, kill and burn all the lords and smallfolk they could find. The individual killings that Bloodraven is responsible for pales before the wanton slaughter and horror that Tywin ordered. And that's not even counting the Sack of King's Landing, the ordered murders of Rhaenys and Aegon, the extirpation of the Reynes and Tarbecks, the gang rape of Tysha, the mental abuse of Tyrion, the Red Wedding, etc.

Bloodraven was a ruthless guy, but he has nothing on Tywin.

Like Robb did in the Riverlands and the Westerlands. Therefore he is worse than Bloodraven.

[Mr Hodor]

Well she was raped and the mountain doesn't do nothing by accident

And Gregor confessed the death

bashing Pia's teeth, rape of the girl in the inn were not planned.

[Maid So Fair]

The thing about Bloodraven that you can respect is that he does hi own dirty work. On several occasions we see him make personal sacrifices to the good of the realm. He didnt care about being labeled a kinslayer or his own honour (and there's no indication he hated Daemon, either) and did what was necessary by killing Daemon and his sons so the King wouldn't have to. He knew Aegon would have no choice but to punish him yet he did what he considered necessary to save the realm another bloody rebellion. He gave up his own power and he served in the NW instead of deserting at the first opportunity as he surely could have. I can't see Tywin ever doing something like that.

bashing Pia's teeth, rape of the girl in the inn were not planned.

When you set a tiger loose in a playground, it's hardly an accident if a child gets hurt.

[Mr Hodor]

Some of the major arguments in this forum are

1. Tywin burned riverlands:

We do not know what happened during the blackfyre rebellions and hence we dont know what Bloodraven did. All men hating him just for killing a pretender seems far fetched. He might have burned some crops as well, though we need more info

2. Red wedding:

Tywin didnt do it. He let freys do them and promised forgiveness.

3. Employing men like Amory, Hoat and Gregor.

Robb employed Hoat too. And in BR's day men didnt trust each other for the fear that that the other might be BR's spy. He is said to be better master of whispers than lady misery.

4. Excessive force in Reyne and Tarbeck

He had to restore Lannister pride. Also compared to BR, who wanted to execute most rebel lords, Tywin did forgive lords at blackwater

5. Ordering the rape and death of Elia martell

I accept Tywin's explanation to Tyrion. He had just confessed ordering death of Aegon and Rhaenys, nephew and niece of the viper. why would he lie about the third person.

Agree with these two points

6. BR did his dirty work.

7. Rape of Tysha.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I mean why do fans hate Tywin and not bloodraven

Probably because Bloodraven did not have any likeable characters that the reader was invested in killed. Because Bloodraven understood honor. He understood what he was sacrificing when he executed Aenys. He made a calculated decision to sacrifice his honor, probably knowing that he would have to be executed or exiled to maintain the credibility of the Iron Throne. He made a sacrifice for the good of something other then himself and his wealth, personal power, personal prestige, and personal auctoritas. He understood loyalty. He stood by his King and his heirs even when it was dangerous to do so, and when he could have profited better by switching sides.

I'm not sure if Tywin even believes in honor. I'm not sure if Tywin has even been loyal to anything other then himself and "Lannisterdom". I'm not sure if Tywin has ever sacrificed himself or one of his family for something other then himself or his family legacy. Tywin, in the end, seems to be self-centered.

[The Wolves]

Tywin's savaging of the Riverlands alone is worse than Bloodraven. He commanded Gregor, Lorch and the Bloody Mummers to go out and rape, kill and burn all the lords and smallfolk they could find. The individual killings that Bloodraven is responsible for pales before the wanton slaughter and horror that Tywin ordered. And that's not even counting the Sack of King's Landing, the ordered murders of Rhaenys and Aegon, the extirpation of the Reynes and Tarbecks, the gang rape of Tysha, the mental abuse of Tyrion, the Red Wedding, etc.

Bloodraven was a ruthless guy, but he has nothing on Tywin.

Word, Tywin is a monster and he never did anything that didn't benefit him or his house as a whole. If there was ever true evil in this series Tywin is the epitome of evil.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Tywin's speech about how it's better to kill one man than hundreds... well, that's what BR did. IT was dishonourable, if you look it under certain perspective, but at least, he was right. And he paid for it by going to the Wall.

Tywin talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, the hypocrite. He didn't just kill Robb Stark. He didn't just kill the rebellious Reynes. He annihilated whole families so no other families dare to defy him. That's not what BR did at all.

So, there is no point of comparison. BR was definitely cold and pragmatic, no denying on that. But he was not cruel. He actually worked with the best intentions for the realm in mind. Tywin didn't: he only cared for what it was good for House Lannister and his pride as a Lannister.

[Moondancer]

Tywin's speech about how it's better to kill one man than hundreds... well, that's what BR did. IT was dishonourable, if you look it under certain perspective, but at least, he was right. And he paid for it by going to the Wall.

Tywin talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, the hypocrite. He didn't just kill Robb Stark. He didn't just kill the rebellious Reynes. He annihilated whole families so no other families dare to defy him. That's not what BR did at all.

So, there is no point of comparison. BR was definitely cold and pragmatic, no denying on that. But he was not cruel. He actually worked with the best intentions for the realm in mind. Tywin didn't: he only cared for what it was good for House Lannister and his pride as a Lannister.

Had Tywin allowed for Red Wedding to happen in Casterly Rock, then yes, BR's and Tywin's actions would be eligible for comparison.

Instead, we have a man with "there's a tool for every task, and a task for every tool" adage. The likeness stops at both of them being capable Hands.

[Maia]

He didn't just kill Robb Stark. He didn't just kill the rebellious Reynes. He annihilated whole families so no other families dare to defy him. That's not what BR did at all.So, there is no point of comparison.

Tywin seemed to expect that only Robb would be killed, and his preference had been for that to happen during the march. But Robb was too careful and always kept guards around him. The Red Wedding in it's final form was Frey brainchild.

As to Reynes, Tywin couldn't get at the guilty ones, since they had barricaded themselves in an impregnable underground fortress. He figured out a way to take the fortress quickly and, yes, there was collateral damage, but when a fortress is stormed, there is one too. It was certainly easier on the Reyne peasants than a 3-year siege would have been.

You have more of a point with Tarbecks, actually. In the Westerlands reading, the mass execution of male Tarbecks was triggered by captive Lord Tarbeck telling Tywin that he'd just be ransomed and the things would continue as before. And Ellyn Tarbeck was offered terms through Kevan, but laughed in his face. But yea, there was no military necessity to exterminate them. Tywin probably feared that Tytos would compensate the survivors in such a way that they'd continue to be a threat - and now with blood feud against the Lannisters, in addition to everything else. But still...

And younger Bloodraven did argue for mass executions of the Blackfyre rebels, although the older version of him in The Mystery Knight did mellow up a bit and spared those for whom it was the first time.

And yes, Bloodraven did things for the good of the realm, as he saw it and eventually payed the price for his actions.

Older Tywin clearly let his/Lannister self-interest take priority when it conflicted with the good of the realm. But that was a jaded, disappointed man. Was young Tywin the same? The one who payed the crown's debt to the Iron Bank, something that he later wouldn't do for his own grandsons? Not IMHO.

I think that Tyrion - Tywin parallels are quite significant here. Tyrion did initially have good intentions, but became embittered and vengeful because of lack of appreciation and all the betrayals. We now know that there were much stronger parallels between the T's experiences than previously imagined. Why not this, too?

[Vikingkingq]

It was the Feys who broke laws and customs of Westeros, not Tywin.

I wasn't thinking of the Red Wedding, although Tywin still gave the order for that to happen.

I was specifically thinking of the wholesale murder of women and children in the Rains of Castamere and his sacking of a defenseless city during Robert's Rebellion.

[Fat Mac]

I wasn't thinking of the Red Wedding, although Tywin still gave the order for that to happen.

I was specifically thinking of the wholesale murder of women and children in the Rains of Castamere and his sacking of a defenseless city during Robert's Rebellion.

The city definitely had defenses.

[Maid So Fair]

snip

If Tywin didn't outright organise Red Wedding, he at least sanctioned it as there's absolutely no way Walder Frey would dare proceed without Tywin's blessing. Killing everyone else was always part of the plan as well, since they could hardly expect to publicly murder Robb and not expect his army to respond by seeking bloody vengeance. It was also Tywin who CHOSE to ally with Walder Frey and Roose Bolton, fully aware of who and what they were, just as it was Tywin who CHOSE to send Gregor after Elia. The fact that some details didn't work out exactly as he planned (not that there's any evidence he particularly cares) doesn't absolve him in the slightest. He knew what he was doing. Like Bloodraven, he should have the balls to take responsibility for his own actions.

Bloodraven's suggestion to execute the rebels is hardly comparable to Tarbecks/Reynes, because it's obvious that it applies to the actual perpetrators. He wasn't proposing to kill every man in the Blackfyre army, or slaughter their entire families. Tywin might have had little choice with Tarbecks/Reynes, but he does it again and again, whether it's his plan for Duskendale, sack of KL, or the pillaging of Riverlands, he repeatedly targets innocents.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

:agree:

Seeing what Aerys did I doubt the Blackfyres would have made worse kings.

Bitttersteel was more honorable than Bloodraven.

Started several pointless wars in favour of illegitimate claimants.

Broke vow to join the Nights Watch, left and incited more rebellion.

Commanded his men to go on fighting after his death, even insane enough to command that his gold coated skull be carried with them.

Exactly how is he honourable?

[Northern light]

Tywin seemed to expect that only Robb would be killed, and his preference had been for that to happen during the march. But Robb was too careful and always kept guards around him. The Red Wedding in it's final form was Frey brainchild.

As to Reynes, Tywin couldn't get at the guilty ones, since they had barricaded themselves in an impregnable underground fortress. He figured out a way to take the fortress quickly and, yes, there was collateral damage, but when a fortress is stormed, there is one too. It was certainly easier on the Reyne peasants than a 3-year siege would have been.

You have more of a point with Tarbecks, actually. In the Westerlands reading, the mass execution of male Tarbecks was triggered by captive Lord Tarbeck telling Tywin that he'd just be ransomed and the things would continue as before. And Ellyn Tarbeck was offered terms through Kevan, but laughed in his face. But yea, there was no military necessity to exterminate them. Tywin probably feared that Tytos would compensate the survivors in such a way that they'd continue to be a threat - and now with blood feud against the Lannisters, in addition to everything else. But still...

And younger Bloodraven did argue for mass executions of the Blackfyre rebels, although the older version of him in The Mystery Knight did mellow up a bit and spared those for whom it was the first time.

And yes, Bloodraven did things for the good of the realm, as he saw it and eventually payed the price for his actions.

Older Tywin clearly let his/Lannister self-interest take priority when it conflicted with the good of the realm. But that was a jaded, disappointed man. Was young Tywin the same? The one who payed the crown's debt to the Iron Bank, something that he later wouldn't do for his own grandsons? Not IMHO.

I think that Tyrion - Tywin parallels are quite significant here. Tyrion did initially have good intentions, but became embittered and vengeful because of lack of appreciation and all the betrayals. We now know that there were much stronger parallels between the T's experiences than previously imagined. Why not this, too?

Seriously, this love for realpolitik is bit too much for me. Tywin had the upper hand when he had the Reynes besieged and his solution was over the top. My personal belief is that he did out of spite not because he had to.

[John Doe]

Seriously, this love for realpolitik is bit too much for me. Tywin had the upper hand when he had the Reynes besieged and his solution was over the top. My personal belief is that he did out of spite not because he had to.

What would you have done?

Send them away to another country, which leads to less respect among your vassals and bears the problem of future claimants on the lands? Let some live, so that they want to avenge their relatives?

[John Doe]

Tywin's speech about how it's better to kill one man than hundreds... well, that's what BR did. IT was dishonourable, if you look it under certain perspective, but at least, he was right. And he paid for it by going to the Wall.

Tywin talked the talk but didn't walk the walk, the hypocrite. He didn't just kill Robb Stark. He didn't just kill the rebellious Reynes. He annihilated whole families so no other families dare to defy him. That's not what BR did at all.

So, there is no point of comparison. BR was definitely cold and pragmatic, no denying on that. But he was not cruel. He actually worked with the best intentions for the realm in mind. Tywin didn't: he only cared for what it was good for House Lannister and his pride as a Lannister.

Why should he let his own (wester)men be killed and spare his enemys? Robbs' army wasn't innocent at all, they would have continued the pointless rebellion, killig peasants and westerman in the process.

He killed all the Reynes because else some would have wanted to avenge their relatives. The puishment for rebelling against your lord usually is death, and they were rebells.