markg171 Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 You are making an easy mistake to make. Swinging a sword requires space, and the tower is a mere watch tower, with just enough room for living quarters, and cramped living quarters at that. Dayne is armed with a great sword, and Ned and company arrive on horses. Of course they are going to meet outside the house, because a fight with swords inside would be impossible. Take note that Whent is kneeling when Ned arrives, yet they say that they don't bend their knees easily. For a full discussion of the tower of joy sequence see the links in my signature. I'm sorry, does no one know how to use a bow or crossbow? You'd think if you were sent to guard a tower, the best way to do so would be with bows, from inside the tower. Standing outside the tower and only bringing swords to guard a tower is the stupidest thing you could possibly do. Unless you're a gaoler and not a defender.Jaime has already noted that Arthur Dayne would never allow his camp to be unprotected with every defensive measure taken, yet you think he would try and defend a tower with nothing but 3 swords, and stand outside the tower to do so? Makes no sense for what he know of him. We do know however that when Martin has guys guarding a prisoner in a tower, he places them outside the tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToTheWolves Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I think this works on a few levels. First, it confirms that Ned believes that Jon is a bastard born from lust. Second, it makes clear that Ned has the same lusts as other men. Third, it makes clear that Jon looks like Ned. Fourth, there is some deliberate ambiguity: the reference to the promise to Lyanna and our knowledge that there is a family resemblance between Ned and Lyanna makes it unclear whether Ned is referring to his own lusts or to Rhaegar's (although there is a decent argument that Ned is referring to lusts sent to men by the Old Gods, which would not apply to Rhaegar).I personally think here that Ned was referring to Robert lusting after so many women and fathering so many bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 doesn't work so well with the Bael the bard story, does it?Of course it does. That's where it comes from, and the central metaphor of the tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Twinslayer Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I'm sorry, does no one know how to use a bow or crossbow? You'd think if you were sent to guard a tower, the best way to do so would be with bows, from inside the tower. Standing outside the tower and only bringing swords to guard a tower is the stupidest thing you could possibly do. Unless you're a gaoler and not a defender.Jaime has already noted that Arthur Dayne would never allow his camp to be unprotected with every defensive measure taken, yet you think he would try and defend a tower with nothing but 3 swords, and stand outside the tower to do so? Makes no sense for what he know of him. We do know however that when Martin has guys guarding a prisoner in a tower, he places them outside the tower.It is kind of odd that they fight from outside the tower. Everyone else defending a tower against a superior force fights from inside (e.g., Yoren does it in ACOK, Dunk prepares to do it is The Sworn Sword).If it was honourable for Ned to fight 7 versus 3, you'd think the KGs could stand at the top of the tower and drop large stones on Ned's men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I think this works on a few levels. First, it confirms that Ned believes that Jon is a bastard born from lust. Second, it makes clear that Ned has the same lusts as other men. Third, it makes clear that Jon looks like Ned. Fourth, there is some deliberate ambiguity: the reference to the promise to Lyanna and our knowledge that there is a family resemblance between Ned and Lyanna makes it unclear whether Ned is referring to his own lusts or to Rhaegar's (although there is a decent argument that Ned is referring to lusts sent to men by the Old Gods, which would not apply to Rhaegar). It doesn't 'confirm' anything. Ned's thoughts were two-fold: his own penchant for keeping promises, even to his detriment; and Robert's penchant for wenching and forgetting. The fact that he thinks about the promises he made to Lyanna in one paragraph and then thinks about Jon in the next is telling. But he doesn't think about Jon being a bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 It is kind of odd that they fight from outside the tower. Everyone else defending a tower against a superior force fights from inside (e.g., Yoren does it in ACOK, Dunk prepares to do it is The Sworn Sword). If it was honourable for Ned to fight 7 versus 3, you'd think the KGs could stand at the top of the tower and drop large stones on Ned's men. The KG had every reason to think they would win that fight. They had less numbers but superior skill and arms. And they almost did...Dayne would have killed Ned but for Howland Reed. The KG would never pull a Monty Python and hide in a tower like cowards when they had a job to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Bullshit. Jon goes off to the Wall, giving Ned the perfect opportunity to tell him who his mother was- and he doesn't. You brush this off as if it doesn't mean anything, when it's a pretty big damn deal in the story. Ned refuses to tell anyone at all- even Jon. If he were Ashara's son, it would be disingenuous of Ned not to let Jon know, because it would open up possible opportunities with the Daynes. But no...he says nothing and let's Jon go off to the Wall. Sounds pretty damn selfish for a man who felt so guilty about having a bastard that he brought him home and raised him amongst his trueborn children.But, I said before- you are simply making shit up at this point because you don't have actual answers. You come in here on the offensive and start spouting things like "Ned wasn't honorable!" and "Jon wasn't attractive like his parents were!" because your position is too weak to defend with actual facts- so you twist the truth. I've dealt enough with people who do that, and they aren't worth debating with, because they simply keep making things up to defend their indefensible position. So don't expect more responses from me.Lol at any R+L =J talking about facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Bullshit. Jon goes off to the Wall, giving Ned the perfect opportunity to tell him who his mother was- and he doesn't. You brush this off as if it doesn't mean anything, when it's a pretty big damn deal in the story. Ned refuses to tell anyone at all- even Jon. If he were Ashara's son, it would be disingenuous of Ned not to let Jon know, because it would open up possible opportunities with the Daynes. But no...he says nothing and let's Jon go off to the Wall. Sounds pretty damn selfish for a man who felt so guilty about having a bastard that he brought him home and raised him amongst his trueborn children.But, I said before- you are simply making shit up at this point because you don't have actual answers. You come in here on the offensive and start spouting things like "Ned wasn't honorable!" and "Jon wasn't attractive like his parents were!" because your position is too weak to defend with actual facts- so you twist the truth. I've dealt enough with people who do that, and they aren't worth debating with, because they simply keep making things up to defend their indefensible position. So don't expect more responses from me.Lol at any R+L =J talking about facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 So, you need to neglect the passage: Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.How does that imply he was honorable? We know that Eddard was described as the "quiet wolf" and was too shy to ask Ashara to dance and needed his brother to do so for him. That doesn't sound like the kind of guy who "knows how to take his pleasures" like Robert. It never means he's honorable, but we do know that he was shy before the war and that fits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 How does that imply he was honorable? We know that Eddard was described as the "quiet wolf" and was too shy to ask Ashara to dance and needed his brother to do so for him. That doesn't sound like the kind of guy who "knows how to take his pleasures" like Robert. It never means he's honorable, but we do know that he was shy before the war and that fits And this is where we conclude you are a troll. Thank you so very much for making that clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Of course it does. That's where it comes from, and the central metaphor of the tale. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness That one a stark daughter too? No, it is the product of the union that is symbolified by the blue rose. And Bael's child was a son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Lol at any R+L =J talking about facts. As opposed to someone who takes everything in the story at face value? You're going to have an ostrich egg on your face when this is all said and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Folks, folks... why feed the trolls? There is such a cute nice button... - But, yeah, nothing better to do before TWOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 And this is where we conclude you are a troll. Thank you so very much for making that clear. Please explain how the fact that Eddard was known to be shy and afraid to dance with girls he liked, doesn't explain how Ned wasn't known to go after any girl he wanted like Robert was?You R+L=J fans are all the same. You're perfectly willing to interpret passages however you want, but never interpret a passage in another way that doesn't suit your purpose. Try using the facts of the story instead of using vague interpretations and reaching conclusions on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 New thread here Please explain how the fact that Eddard was known to be shy and afraid to dance with girls he liked, doesn't explain how Ned wasn't known to go after any girl he wanted like Robert was?You R+L=J fans are all the same. You're perfectly willing to interpret passages however you want, but never interpret a passage in another way that doesn't suit your purpose. Try using the facts of the story instead of using vague interpretations and reaching conclusions on your own. If you can take Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.To mean anything besides Ned being known for not being a nympho, you are either trolling, are engaging in some mental gymnastics just for the sake of disagreeing with the mainstream, do not understand English, or have a brain tumor that needs investigating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Folks, folks... why feed the trolls? There is such a cute nice button... - But, yeah, nothing better to do before TWOW. Right you are. Ah, and embarrassingly enough, this thread has just been unpinned. But not closed. I missed that bit, when I started the new one over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 As opposed to someone who takes everything in the story at face value? You're going to have an ostrich egg on your face when this is all said and done.IF Jon does end up being Lyanna's son, then it will be proven with facts. Not reached interpretations of words and perceived symbolism that can have multiple meanings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finger Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 It is kind of odd that they fight from outside the tower. Everyone else defending a tower against a superior force fights from inside (e.g., Yoren does it in ACOK, Dunk prepares to do it is The Sworn Sword).If it was honourable for Ned to fight 7 versus 3, you'd think the KGs could stand at the top of the tower and drop large stones on Ned's men.The important thing is where the other people had gone.They could have outnumbered Ned's posse, but the others had gone.The three KG were looking for death. Whent even kneeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSarellaX Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 So, do you guys think Jon will find out about his parentage soon after his near death experience, during his near death experience, or will it take a while still? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finger Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 The KG had every reason to think they would win that fight. They had less numbers but superior skill and arms. And they almost did...Dayne would have killed Ned but for Howland Reed. The KG would never pull a Monty Python and hide in a tower like cowards when they had a job to do. Not at all. They made themselves killed, as Bael the Bard did, as Quorin halfhand did. They had dismissed their forces and they waited for their foes on foot and without cover. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, the knight who had defeated whoever were in the Kingswood, and another skilled knight. They didn't make a deadly mistake, they did what they had to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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