Aegor and Brynden: Worst uncles ever

[Denam_Pavel]

Daemon I Blackfyre was their far older half-brother. Aegor wasn't neccesarily the guy that singlehandedly talked him into it either. Dunk & Egg lays the blame equally if not moreso on Fireball. World of Ice and Fire is just suggested account of one Maester.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Daemon I Blackfyre was their far older half-brother. Aegor wasn't neccesarily the guy that singlehandedly talked him into it either. Dunk & Egg lays the blame equally if not moreso on Fireball. World of Ice and Fire is just suggested account of one Maester.

Daemon was only 3 or 4 years older than BS, IIRC.

[Lord Varys]

Fire Eater,

we don't know if Daemon II and Bittersteel talked about this whole Whitewalls thing. They most likely did, as it seems that Bittersteel, Daemon II, and the whole Blackfyre family lived in Tyrosh at that time.

It may be that Daemon and Gormon Peake pushed Bittersteel too much and he simply did not share their opinion that this plan had any chance of success.

And we should also keep in mind that Bloodraven did not, in fact, kill Daemon II.

Other stuff:

The idea that Egg was supposed to be a hostage against Maekar is ridiculous. Bloodraven invited Egg to stay at court with his uncle the king and his other family members, and could have gone from their to Summerhall any time he wanted.

We have also no idea what caused Bloodraven to execute Aenys the way he did. My most likely guess is that the whole Great Council thing was a much more explosive affair than we realize. TWoIaF suggests that Bloodraven wanted to prevent another Dance, suggesting that Egg's party and Aerion's party were at each other's throats.

In such a political climate a Blackfyre claimant may have actually have a very good chance of winning the Iron Throne if Bloodraven had not acted the way he did - especially if Aenys was indeed a charismatic orator. Not to mention that even a minority of Lords speaking/voting for Aenys would have strengthened the Blackfyre opposition/loyalists, even if Egg had won in the end, as the whole Realm would have seen how much support they still enjoyed. The Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion could then have put an end to the reign of the Targaryen dynasty.

[Colonel Green]

The man was still unarmed and sworn to the Faith, and didn't take up arms or plot against the Targaryens.

Preaching pro-Blackfyre propaganda is plotting against the Targaryens. He's encouraging rebellious activity to overthrow the Crown. That's sedition.

[Lord Varys]

And Aenys was not 'sworn to the Faith' nor necessarily unarmed.

[Fire Eater]

Bittersteel and Bloodraven to me were consumed in the war to a point it did not matter what blood relation those they killed were.

For the record, you were so right on Daemon, i still like him because i found in his curse war he was a good father and brave man, but his reasoning to go to war seems to be completely because Aegor told him to.

BR was unblooded at the time of the Battle of Redgrass Field I think. His actions were calculated.

I think Aegor was likely telling Daemon to do it for plenty of personal reasons. In terms of parenting, I wonder if Daemon allowed Aegon and Aemon to bully Daemon II and his friend, Alyn Cockshaw? He might have tolerated it with a "boys will be boys" kind of attitude, or felt Daemon II should toughen up.

Fire Eater,

we don't know if Daemon II and Bittersteel talked about this whole Whitewalls thing. They most likely did, as it seems that Bittersteel, Daemon II, and the whole Blackfyre family lived in Tyrosh at that time.

It may be that Daemon and Gormon Peake pushed Bittersteel too much and he simply did not share their opinion that this plan had any chance of success.

And we should also keep in mind that Bloodraven did not, in fact, kill Daemon II.

Other stuff:

The idea that Egg was supposed to be a hostage against Maekar is ridiculous. Bloodraven invited Egg to stay at court with his uncle the king and his other family members, and could have gone from their to Summerhall any time he wanted.

They did have some talk given I doubt Bittersteel would have let Daemon's heir go to Whitewalls without his leave. Daemon wanted to go there due to his dream of a dragon hatching there.

Aegor also disapproved of Daemon II.

The implication was to use Egg as insurance against Maekar, BR"s biggest rival in House Targaryen.

We have also no idea what caused Bloodraven to execute Aenys the way he did. My most likely guess is that the whole Great Council thing was a much more explosive affair than we realize. TWoIaF suggests that Bloodraven wanted to prevent another Dance, suggesting that Egg's party and Aerion's party were at each other's throats.

In such a political climate a Blackfyre claimant may have actually have a very good chance of winning the Iron Throne if Bloodraven had not acted the way he did - especially if Aenys was indeed a charismatic orator. Not to mention that even a minority of Lords speaking/voting for Aenys would have strengthened the Blackfyre opposition/loyalists, even if Egg had won in the end, as the whole Realm would have seen how much support they still enjoyed. The Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion could then have put an end to the reign of the Targaryen dynasty.

BR executed Aenys since it meant one less Blackfyre claimant, and as a warning to anyone holding Blackfyre sympathies. Aerion was years dead by the time of the Great Council.

I doubt that Aenys would have sat the IT given he lacks the support of the lords of the realm, the majority of whom fought against his house. Also, it would mean civil war since they would be dislodging the Targaryens.

The Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion ended in a huge defeat.

Preaching pro-Blackfyre propaganda is plotting against the Targaryens. He's encouraging rebellious activity to overthrow the Crown. That's sedition.

Was he given a trial first? He didn't command any swords, and he could have been simply sent to the Wall or imprisoned.

[Wmarshal]

BR was unblooded at the time of the Battle of Redgrass Field I think. His actions were calculated.

I think Aegor was likely telling Daemon to do it for plenty of personal reasons. In terms of parenting, I wonder if Daemon allowed Aegon and Aemon to bully Daemon II and his friend, Alyn Cockshaw? He might have tolerated it with a "boys will be boys" kind of attitude, or felt Daemon II should toughen up.

True enough.

After becoming his son in law no doubt, Daemon still rebelled simply because Aegor told him to do it, I now believe fully he would have made a bad king if Aegor could control him so. As to parenting, I doubt it was that serious, Alyn was nothing but a overly emotional asshole the whole of MK, I take any complaints he have on anyone with a gain of salt, Daemon was their brother, he does not remember in any particular bad way, save they laughed at his prophecy.

[Lord Varys]

Fire Eater,

the implication George is trying to give the unwary reader in TSS and TMK is that Maekar and Bloodraven are indeed rivals. But just because people like Septon Sefton and Kyle the Cat think this is the case does not mean that it is. TWoIaF made it very likely that this was never actually the case as Bloodraven continued to serve as Hand under Maekar, suggesting that this 'alleged rivalry' was nonsense born from the way certain people liked to/chose to interpret the fallout between Aerys I and Maekar.

Just because Maekar wanted to be Hand, and just because he felt his brother should have appointed him rather than their bastard-uncle does not mean that Maekar hated/did not like Bloodraven. Maekar's trouble was with his brother, not so much Bloodraven.

When Bloodraven considers to take Dunk & Egg with them to KL after Whitewalls he immediately relents after Egg says to him that his father would not particularly like that idea, suggesting that Bloodraven does not want to provoke Maekar. But he was in a dilemma: Considering Dunk & Egg's stupid behavior throughout the whole Whitewalls affair it is easily imaginable that they will eventually get themselves killed on the road. And who would Maekar then blame for Egg's death? Bloodraven, the man who could have brought his son home/at court but allowed him to continue his travels.

Aerion was also not 'years dead' by the Great Council, but rather about a year or so, perhaps even shorter. Aerion killed himself only shortly after the birth of Maegor, and the boy was born in 232 AC. And TWoIaF states that Bloodraven did want to risk another Dance of the Dragons when he called the Great Council. How do you think such a scenario would be possible if there was no tension between Egg's and Aerion's supporters? It's simply the only option. Aerion's and Egg's parties must be at each other's throat at court, as Prince Daeron was dead for a longer period of time, and his followers would clearly not be as much at odds with Egg as Aerion's.

The fact that Prince Maegor did not enjoy much support at the Great Council does not come as a surprise, as Aerion would neither be well-loved throughout the Realm, nor would an infant king be popular among the majority of the lords, but this does not mean that Aerion/Maegor did not have powerful supporters in key positions at court.

In such a climate Aenys Blackfyre could have become a compromise candidate, especially if Egg's enemies had joined with the remaining Blackfyre loyalists and the supporters of Aerion/Maegor. We simply don't know enough to dismiss this possibility out of hand. Especially since we neither know whether Aenys had been approached by Blackfyre loyalists to present his claim to the council or whether he had come up with that idea all by himself (unlikely, in my opinion).

Not to mention the fact that the whole Blackfyre cause could have profited immensely if Aenys had been allowed to speak before the council and win considerable support among the Lords of the Realm. As I've said, even if Aenys had not been chosen by the council, if he had gathered some support there, the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion three years later could have been much more successful in such a scenario.

But the way Bloodraven dealt with Aenys clearly hammered home the fact that Blackfyres and their supporters could not hope for mercy after all this time.

[MissMatchedEyes]

After reading Worlds, something hit me, these guys need to destroy each other single handle led to the complete destruction of house blakfyre. Don't get me wrong, Daemon should never have let Aegor talk him into it, these two just kept lighting the fire. Aegor, putting swords in Daemon's sons hands instead of forging peace, and Brynden seeking to just to kill them all. You would forget they are the blackfyres uncles. What do you guys think?

OP, best thread title ever!

[Winterfell is Burning]

Fire Eater,

the implication George is trying to give the unwary reader in TSS and TMK is that Maekar and Bloodraven are indeed rivals. But just because people like Septon Sefton and Kyle the Cat think this is the case does not mean that it is. TWoIaF made it very likely that this was never actually the case as Bloodraven continued to serve as Hand under Maekar, suggesting that this 'alleged rivalry' was nonsense born from the way certain people liked to/chose to interpret the fallout between Aerys I and Maekar.

Just because Maekar wanted to be Hand, and just because he felt his brother should have appointed him rather than their bastard-uncle does not mean that Maekar hated/did not like Bloodraven. Maekar's trouble was with his brother, not so much Bloodraven.

When Bloodraven considers to take Dunk & Egg with them to KL after Whitewalls he immediately relents after Egg says to him that his father would not particularly like that idea, suggesting that Bloodraven does not want to provoke Maekar. But he was in a dilemma: Considering Dunk & Egg's stupid behavior throughout the whole Whitewalls affair it is easily imaginable that they will eventually get themselves killed on the road. And who would Maekar then blame for Egg's death? Bloodraven, the man who could have brought his son home/at court but allowed him to continue his travels.

Aerion was also not 'years dead' by the Great Council, but rather about a year or so, perhaps even shorter. Aerion killed himself only shortly after the birth of Maegor, and the boy was born in 232 AC. And TWoIaF states that Bloodraven did want to risk another Dance of the Dragons when he called the Great Council. How do you think such a scenario would be possible if there was no tension between Egg's and Aerion's supporters? It's simply the only option. Aerion's and Egg's parties must be at each other's throat at court, as Prince Daeron was dead for a longer period of time, and his followers would clearly not be as much at odds with Egg as Aerion's.

The fact that Prince Maegor did not enjoy much support at the Great Council does not come as a surprise, as Aerion would neither be well-loved throughout the Realm, nor would an infant king be popular among the majority of the lords, but this does not mean that Aerion/Maegor did not have powerful supporters in key positions at court.

In such a climate Aenys Blackfyre could have become a compromise candidate, especially if Egg's enemies had joined with the remaining Blackfyre loyalists and the supporters of Aerion/Maegor. We simply don't know enough to dismiss this possibility out of hand. Especially since we neither know whether Aenys had been approached by Blackfyre loyalists to present his claim to the council or whether he had come up with that idea all by himself (unlikely, in my opinion).

Not to mention the fact that the whole Blackfyre cause could have profited immensely if Aenys had been allowed to speak before the council and win considerable support among the Lords of the Realm. As I've said, even if Aenys had not been chosen by the council, if he had gathered some support there, the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion three years later could have been much more successful in such a scenario.

But the way Bloodraven dealt with Aenys clearly hammered home the fact that Blackfyres and their supporters could not hope for mercy after all this time.

It's entire possible that Maekar and BR were really rivals or in bad terms, but reconciled eventually. Possibly when they fought together in the 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion.

And you know, BR could simply have refused Aenys per mission to talk. Killing Aenys in the long run achieved absolutely nothing since the Blackfyres continued to fight and only resulted in BR being sent to the Wall, unable to help.

[Lord Varys]

If they had truly been rival (or rather, if Bloodraven had considered himself a rival of Maekar, and intended to claim the Iron Throne for himself) he would have not allowed Egg to continue his journey with Dunk. He would have taken him back to KL, and he would have used him as hostage against Maekar, just as he used Daemon II as a hostage against Bittersteel/Haegon.

Neither Dunk nor Egg had any way to prevent Bloodraven from doing that. The fact that Bloodraven did nothing of this sort strongly suggests to me that Bloodraven did not consider Bloodraven an enemy/rival.

Even more importantly, Maekar sulking at Summerhall instead of hanging out at court and causing problems for Bloodraven/Aerys on council and court also suggests that Maekar was not actually in a power struggle with Bloodraven.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I don't mean they were rivals in the sense they want to kill each other, just that there was some bad blood between them.

[Ulthosian Stark]

BR should of sniped him at some point, like he did Daemon. I mean if your already a kinslayer why not?

I love BR, Bittersteel was just a bitter man who chose the losing side

[Maia]

It's entire possible that Maekar and BR were really rivals or in bad terms, but reconciled eventually. Possibly when they fought together in the 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion.

I agree with this. It is clear that neither of them actually wanted to be a king, but they were rivals for the Handship, IMHO, and there were a few years of hurt feelings and sulking on Maekar's part over being overlooked for the post. There just wasn't the deep hatred that some people imagined.

And you know, BR could simply have refused Aenys per mission to talk.

Sure, but I don't know that it would have been enough to prevent Aenys from appearing and adressing the Great Council, and neither do you. It is very likely that Aenys had powerful backers among the Egg-hating nobility of Westeros, backers whom Bloodraven couldn't touch during what was effectively an interregnum without sparking a civil war.

Killing Aenys in the long run achieved absolutely nothing since the Blackfyres continued to fight and only resulted in BR being sent to the Wall, unable to help.

It likely prevented Aenys being chosen as King and/ or him derailing Egg's election to the throne. So, it did achieve BR's goals. I have to wonder if some of the people who have been later promised Aegon V's children in marriage, weren't the ones secretly sponsoring Aenys.

Also, the subsequent Blackfyre rebellions had little enough support, so it isn't like long-term consequences were that bad. Yes, BR couldn't help afterwards, but he was already 58 at the time. Odds were, that he wouldn't have been able to hang around for much longer anyway.

[Veltigar]

We have also no idea what caused Bloodraven to execute Aenys the way he did. My most likely guess is that the whole Great Council thing was a much more explosive affair than we realize. TWoIaF suggests that Bloodraven wanted to prevent another Dance, suggesting that Egg's party and Aerion's party were at each other's throats.

Since the only info we have of the great council was of Jeor Mormont (IIRC), I think we shouldn't be entirely convinced of the claim that nobody really supported Maegor. On the contrary, I believe he was easily as popular as Egg. The clues are there imo. His mother was of an older line of Targaryens than Egg himself was, his father was Egg's older brother, we know from the reading on the Westerlands that Lord Gerion played a vital part in the election of Egg (which doesn't make it sound like a walk in park imo), Egg himself was ridiculed for his feeling with the smallfolk and he was married to a mere Blackwood (no double dose of Targ blood for the children).

Knowing Aerion, he would also have fostered quite a big retinue of courtiers. I think that, the moment Maekar became King, Aerion probably started attracting some cronies. Showering them with favour, acting like the crown prince, etc. Those people would not wish to be removed from power, especially when Egg, the new king, would probably advocate strongly against them. I'm also curious to meet Maegor's mother, who knows what kind of woman she was. Perhaps she was harmless, but she could have been an Allicent/Cersei type for all we know.

In such a political climate a Blackfyre claimant may have actually have a very good chance of winning the Iron Throne if Bloodraven had not acted the way he did - especially if Aenys was indeed a charismatic orator. Not to mention that even a minority of Lords speaking/voting for Aenys would have strengthened the Blackfyre opposition/loyalists, even if Egg had won in the end, as the whole Realm would have seen how much support they still enjoyed. The Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion could then have put an end to the reign of the Targaryen dynasty.

Even if he had no real chance of winning, he might have been a threat. If he stole some supporters of Egg away and tipped the scales in favour of Maegor for instance :)

[Lord Varys]

Yandel presents the Great Council in a way that suggests that Maegor did not enjoy much support, and, come to think of it, the fact that Daenora's claim was not even considered - while Vaelle's was - could suggests that she died in childbirth in 232 AC.

After all, Daenora's claim should have indeed been pretty strong, as she was of the elder Targaryen branch (on the other, the fact that she was already passed over in 221 AC could suggests that she was not considered in 233 AC, but that's not very likely as Rhaenys was still a claimant in 101 despite the fact that Jaehaerys passed her over in 92 AC).

My guess is that Aerion did indeed have a bunch of influential followers, a party of his own, at court, since even before the time Maekar ascended to the Iron Throne (we learn in TMK from Uthor Underleaf that 'the Bright Prince has friends'). Those cronies would have become even more powerful when Aerion became Prince of Dragonstone after Daeron's death.

Those people would have been influential at court, determined to rule the Realm as regents throughout the time of Maegor's 15+ years minority, which, in turn, may have been the reason why Bloodraven felt compelled to call a Great Council to settle the succession. Even if Maekar did not yet formally install Maegor as Prince of Dragonstone - which I believe is the case, as he did not expect to die so soon himself - the usual custom of succession would make Maegor the next king.

Aerion and his cronies may have not been so popular with the majority of the Lords of the Realm, though, explaining why the Great Council easily dismissed Maegor's claim. However, Egg's enemies as well as Aerion's cronies - preventing the rise of Aerion's most hated brother would have been most important for his supporters - apparently were numerous enough to make Aemon a 'compromise candidate'. And this compromise candidate may have easily been Aenys, as he would have had the Blackfyre loyalists backing, as well as not being unwilling to become king or technically hindered by a vow.

[Colonel Green]

Aerion and his cronies may have not been so popular with the majority of the Lords of the Realm, though, explaining why the Great Council easily dismissed Maegor's claim.

As well, an infant monarch would have attracted little support from most lords not seeking to rule through him in King's Landing, i.e., most of them.

[Fire Eater]

True enough.

After becoming his son in law no doubt, Daemon still rebelled simply because Aegor told him to do it, I now believe fully he would have made a bad king if Aegor could control him so. As to parenting, I doubt it was that serious, Alyn was nothing but a overly emotional asshole the whole of MK, I take any complaints he have on anyone with a gain of salt, Daemon was their brother, he does not remember in any particular bad way, save they laughed at his prophecy.

At least the Targaryens had Baelor Breakspear, so BR wasn't the only one whispering in the king's ear. The Blackfyres lacked a figure like him to counterbalance Bittersteel. Also Daeron II, seemed to be a reasonable guy, where Baelor supposedly got his sense of justice from.

I don't think let Aegor telling Daemon to rebel was the sole reason just one reason. Egg said Fireball played as big an influence as Aegor in convincing Daemon. Fireball was pissed at Daeron II for not letting him join the KG, and was likely hoping to be a member of Daemon's new KG. Daemon was also pissed at being bastard, something he shared with Aegor, and at Daenerys being married to the Prince of Dorne. The lords who were brought to complain to Daemon were part of the anti-Dornish faction, and likely former officials who benefited from Aegon IV's corruption, and were expunged from court after Daeron took over.

Fire Eater,

the implication George is trying to give the unwary reader in TSS and TMK is that Maekar and Bloodraven are indeed rivals. But just because people like Septon Sefton and Kyle the Cat think this is the case does not mean that it is. TWoIaF made it very likely that this was never actually the case as Bloodraven continued to serve as Hand under Maekar, suggesting that this 'alleged rivalry' was nonsense born from the way certain people liked to/chose to interpret the fallout between Aerys I and Maekar.

Just because Maekar wanted to be Hand, and just because he felt his brother should have appointed him rather than their bastard-uncle does not mean that Maekar hated/did not like Bloodraven. Maekar's trouble was with his brother, not so much Bloodraven.

When Bloodraven considers to take Dunk & Egg with them to KL after Whitewalls he immediately relents after Egg says to him that his father would not particularly like that idea, suggesting that Bloodraven does not want to provoke Maekar. But he was in a dilemma: Considering Dunk & Egg's stupid behavior throughout the whole Whitewalls affair it is easily imaginable that they will eventually get themselves killed on the road. And who would Maekar then blame for Egg's death? Bloodraven, the man who could have brought his son home/at court but allowed him to continue his travels.

BR couldn't force them, and he respected Egg enough to make his own decision. BR is calculating, and likely was the kind of guy who likes to seize an opportunity when it is presented to him. Egg and DUnk weren't stupid at Whitewalls. Egg was pretty good at holding his won, managing to cow Lord Butterwell.

Aerion was also not 'years dead' by the Great Council, but rather about a year or so, perhaps even shorter. Aerion killed himself only shortly after the birth of Maegor, and the boy was born in 232 AC. And TWoIaF states that Bloodraven did want to risk another Dance of the Dragons when he called the Great Council. How do you think such a scenario would be possible if there was no tension between Egg's and Aerion's supporters? It's simply the only option. Aerion's and Egg's parties must be at each other's throat at court, as Prince Daeron was dead for a longer period of time, and his followers would clearly not be as much at odds with Egg as Aerion's.

The fact that Prince Maegor did not enjoy much support at the Great Council does not come as a surprise, as Aerion would neither be well-loved throughout the Realm, nor would an infant king be popular among the majority of the lords, but this does not mean that Aerion/Maegor did not have powerful supporters in key positions at court.

In such a climate Aenys Blackfyre could have become a compromise candidate, especially if Egg's enemies had joined with the remaining Blackfyre loyalists and the supporters of Aerion/Maegor. We simply don't know enough to dismiss this possibility out of hand. Especially since we neither know whether Aenys had been approached by Blackfyre loyalists to present his claim to the council or whether he had come up with that idea all by himself (unlikely, in my opinion).

Not to mention the fact that the whole Blackfyre cause could have profited immensely if Aenys had been allowed to speak before the council and win considerable support among the Lords of the Realm. As I've said, even if Aenys had not been chosen by the council, if he had gathered some support there, the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion three years later could have been much more successful in such a scenario.

But the way Bloodraven dealt with Aenys clearly hammered home the fact that Blackfyres and their supporters could not hope for mercy after all this time.

Because there wasn't any tension between Egg and Aerion's supporters but there was a potential succession crisis in the making. Daeron's daughter was a lackwit girl, and men feared Aerion's infant son on the IT, there would be a conflict over who wold be Maegor's regent.

Aenys would have to win support, and he has no friends amongst major houses. The majority of whom fought against his family.

[C.T. Phipps]

The man was still unarmed and sworn to the Faith, and didn't take up arms or plot against the Targaryens.

Eh, he was telling the people their true kings were across the sea and to rise up in support of the Blackfyres.

Priests have, historically, been part of many popular uprisings.

And quite a few are bloody messes.

In Bloodraven's case, his brutality to his kinsmen was practical albeit appalling. The reason he was such an effective figure was because he acted for practicality rather than sentiment.

He killed his kin because they were coming after his kin. It's as simple as that.

[Fire Eater]

Eh, he was telling the people their true kings were across the sea and to rise up in support of the Blackfyres.

Priests have, historically, been part of many popular uprisings.

And quite a few are bloody messes.

In Bloodraven's case, his brutality to his kinsmen was practical albeit appalling. The reason he was such an effective figure was because he acted for practicality rather than sentiment.

He killed his kin because they were coming after his kin. It's as simple as that.

Only on the Iron Isles, or if it is the HS. The priest wouldn't have the faith, and he could be stripped of his position.