R+L=D, B+A=J

[BettyCrocker]

I have been a huge fan of the R+L=J theory since I first heard about it a couple of years ago. As a casual reader of the series at the time, I had not thought much about who Jon's mother was, or for that matter, if Ned was his actual father. So, naturally, when I came across that thread it blew my mind. However, recently the theory, though backed by much textual evidence, has gone virtually unchallenged and has many people convinced that it is cannon. It is not, though. At least not yet.

I believe the best way to prove a theory is to test it against opposing theories which attempt to explain the same occurrence. The text has convinced me that Jon is not Ned's bastard. The series has yet to give any concrete proof though, that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. In order for fresh discussion to take place about this, I would like to introduce a (hopefully) new theory among this forum which postulates that Jon is the son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne, while Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Scandalous stuff, I know.

This is not my idea. I provided the links to the video. Please watch them as I will give my two cents about them below.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-u2gUM4Vvc

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olUOUdlNvyg

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXGBP4SVwcc

There are many things prestonjacobs brings up which does give me pause to rethink R+L=J. For instance, Ashara Dayne was a major factor in the Tourney of Harrenhall, and she continues to haunt Barristan to this day. Ashara must have been a bigger influence in these events than the author has let on, else why have her mentioned as an object of desire for multiple people throughout the novels. Also, Dany’s childhood image of her ‘home’ does not correlate to images from characters depicting what Braavos looks and sounds like. Running bare foot towards a large house with a red door and a lemon tree, doesn’t sound like it could happen in cold, damp, smelly, citrus-fruitless Braavos. (Though I must confess, a lemon could still grow in colder climates, just not bear fruit). Quaithe’s continuous instance for Dany to ‘remember who you are’ could further be interpreted as Dany not actually knowing ‘who she is’. Furthermore, Ned’s dilemma in King’s landing makes much more sense if it was related to a promise made about Dany, rather than to Jon. I do not agree that the dreams where induced by magic, as there is no indication of that. But, they do seem to sway him to stay in King’s Landing after Dany’s life is threatened. Finally, there is a nice symmetry about 2 ‘ice and fire’ couples get together and producing 2 children which embody opposing elements. Especially in a world where the ‘elements’ or seasons are so out of sync and wack as crack… Sorry.

I would also like to add my own thoughts to strengthen this argument. When Dany in the House of the Undying, the phrase “daughter of three” is brought up. This would fit if Lyanna was married (or joined in some other way) to Rhaegar who was also married to Ellia. Also in the House of the Undying, Dany’s vision of Rhaegar speaking with Ellia about how there must “[be] one more” child, while looking directly at Dany. Moreover, it is Dany who is constantly pushing the ‘star-crossed lovers’ romance between Rhaegar and ‘the woman he died fighting for’. It would be ironic if that woman turned out to be her mother and her idolized ‘brother’ was her father.

B+A=J would also still fit with Jon’s dreams about the crypts and how there seems to be some secret within them. Additionally, it doesn’t displace any identity issues Jon has gone through in the series as a bastard of a Stark. It should be said that it is possible that Brandon and Ashara had got married before Jon was born, but not probable. This would also explain the hazy answer George R.R. Martin gave when Barristan was thinking about how Ashara had turned to ‘Stark’ instead of him. Why ‘Stark’? Why not ‘Ned Stark’ if it had already been established in the books that something emotional was connecting those two characters?

Finally, Ashara bearing a child from a Stark does seem to be cannon; however, we have 2 conflicting stories about that child. One story claims that it was Jon Snow, but fathered by Ned, the other claims that it was a still-born girl. If there had been both a baby boy and girl in Starfall both stories from reputable sources would have some credence.

There are, nevertheless, some issues I have with this theory. For one, it is complexly complicated (not sorry). Secondly, I would actually like to know when Ashara and Brandon had time to reproduce. Granted, they had more opportunities than Ned would have had to copulate with Ashara. But, I find it unlikely that she would have crept down to the dungeons to have some kinky BD/SM sex with a Stark. (Actually, who knows? Women’s sex drives were massively suppressed in those days, so maybe this was the best opportunity to let loose and literally ‘screw the man’!). I also find the argument about how Ned ‘not thinking about Rhaegar in several years’ to discredit Jon as Rhaegar’s son to be kind of hollow. When I think about certain people in my life, I don’t think about their fathers and mothers, I think of them as individuals – distinct from who their parents were. This is especially true if one or both parents weren’t around for me to make connections between them. (Hopefully this makes sense.) I also think it would make sense for Ned to have some repressed memories about the whole incident. He does admit to memory loss surrounding the Tower of Joy fiasco, so repressing other thoughts I believe would come naturally to him. This does not, in any case, discredit this theory completely and I believe it’s still treading water.

That’s all I can think of for now. Hopefully you’ll have viewed prestonjacobs’ take upon the matter and add your two cents to the topic. I think this theory is well thought out and is worth some sort of general discussion among this forum. This is my first ever post so I would really appreciate it if you don’t completely tear me to shreds.

Thanks.

[myufa]

What about the blue flower in the ice in the HoTU? That would represent a child of Lyanna and the only Lyanna child candidate at the wall is Jon.

I personally think that the house w the red door was in Dorne but Dany wasn't told that so that Dorne wouldn't be suspected of treason to Robert if anyone found out they were keeping Targs.

And welcome to the forums

[JonSnow4President]

Preston Jacobs continuously implies multiple twisting or deliberate misunderstanding of facts, and massive leaps from the text in his theories.

Dany was born approximately 9 months after the sack.

Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany.

Therefore, Jon was born within a month of the sack occurring.

The rebellion last a year. The rebellion happened after Ned's head was called for, which happened after Rickard traveled to KL, which happened while Brandon was in the dungeons of KL. In other words, he wasn't free to have sex for well over a year before Jon was born. Even if you assume he was able to get some with Ashara in the dungeons, the year+ necessary gestation still makes it IMPOSSIBLE for B+A = J.

That also means Lyanna was dead 8ish months prior to Danys birth...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No. Don't put any stock in these videos, the guy makes crackpots like others breathe.

Brandon was dead for a year when Jon was conceived. Lyanna was dead for half a year when Dany was born. And that's just the most egregicious argument against that "theory".

[midi]

These theories are rarely postulated, because they do not appear to hold any water if we can assume that the information we have on RR and immediately prior to it is even somewhat correct.

And if it is, the timeline doesn't match up with these theories _at_all_

[Mladen]

God, this is worse than Howland= HIgh Septon. These threads are everywhere... :)

It may come as news to Preston Jacobs and apparently whole bunch of people but dead people can't procreate. Trust me on that.

Brandon died before Jon was conceived, some 14-15 months before Jon was born. Dany was born in rather public event (hence the Stormborn) 8 months after Lyanna died. So, no, these theories aren't possible.

[Vikingkingq]

Preston Jacobs continuously implies multiple twisting or deliberate misunderstanding of facts, and massive leaps from the text in his theories.

Dany was born approximately 9 months after the sack.

Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany.

Therefore, Jon was born within a month of the sack occurring.

The rebellion last a year. The rebellion happened after Ned's head was called for, which happened after Rickard traveled to KL, which happened while Brandon was in the dungeons of KL. In other words, he wasn't free to have sex for well over a year before Jon was born. Even if you assume he was able to get some with Ashara in the dungeons, the year+ necessary gestation still makes it IMPOSSIBLE for B+A = J.

That also means Lyanna was dead 8ish months prior to Danys birth...

Bingo. And to get more specific: the worldbook indicates that Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared almost exactly at the beginning of 282 AC and Brandon is jailed shortly thereafter. It is not possible for Brandon to be the father of Jon Snow no matter who the mother is.

[YoungGriff89]

The only way the R+L = D scenario is possible in my opinion is if Viserys and Dany never went to Dragonstone and instead Viserys was lied to and told the TOJ was Dragonstone. It's not too far from the water (a day's ride give or take looking at a map), and to a child the time spent on the boat trip would be hard to gauge. Here Rhaella has a still birth and Lyanna's child who was born about the same time was given to Viserys and said to be his little sister. This doesn't prevent Willem Dary from from being at the tower as well. This would also explain the presence of the Kingsguard at the TOJ if essentially all the royal family is there. To believe this theory you'd have to believe Rhaegar had made plans to fake sending the royal family to Dragonstone and really take them to where his lover was in Dorne. That may require Rhaegar coordinating somewhat with Doran Martell, which in itself is a huge stretch but maybe he could have offered to get Elia and the children to the TOJ as well but the Mad King would not let them leave. It could have been Rhaegar's idea for Varys to perform the baby switch as a contingency.

I'm not saying those things necessarily are what I believe happened but to belive R+L=D I think those are things we'd have to assume happen. If there's any merit to the Dornish Master Plan this could have been a part of it.

“The hill loomed larger down here. Dany had taken to calling it Dragonstone, after the ancient citadel where she’d been born. She had no memories of that Dragonstone, but she would not soon forget this one.”

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. “A Dance with Dragons.”

[Consigliere]

That wouldn't work simply because the whereabouts of Viserys and Rhaella were well known. There was a garrison at DS ready to turn them over and there would have been a household present as well, unless we assume that Rhaella was doing her own cooking, cleaning and washing.

[Vikingkingq]

Tower of Joy is nowhere near the water - it's in the Prince's Pass, right up in the mountains.

Moreover, how would you explain that no one knew that the royal party wasn't on Dragonstone - Stannis took Dragonstone, he would have asked around about whether the royal court was there?

[Ygrain]

Are these threads genuine, or is PJ doing some PRing?

The only way the R+L = D scenario is possible in my opinion is if Viserys and Dany never went to Dragonstone and instead Viserys was lied to and told the TOJ was Dragonstone. It's not too far from the water (a day's ride give or take looking at a map), and to a child the time spent on the boat trip would be hard to gauge. Here Rhaella has a still birth and Lyanna's child who was born about the same time was given to Viserys and said to be his little sister. This doesn't prevent Willem Dary from from being at the tower as well. This would also explain the presence of the Kingsguard at the TOJ if essentially all the royal family is there. To believe this theory you'd have to believe Rhaegar had made plans to fake sending the royal family to Dragonstone and really take them to where his lover was in Dorne. That may require Rhaegar coordinating somewhat with Doran Martell, which in itself is a huge stretch but maybe he could have offered to get Elia and the children to the TOJ as well but the Mad King would not let them leave. It could have been Rhaegar's idea for Varys to perform the baby switch as a contingency.

I'm not saying those things necessarily are what I believe happened but to belive R+L=D I think those are things we'd have to assume happen. If there's any merit to the Dornish Master Plan this could have been a part of it.

“The hill loomed larger down here. Dany had taken to calling it Dragonstone, after the ancient citadel where she’d been born. She had no memories of that Dragonstone, but she would not soon forget this one.”

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. “A Dance with Dragons.”

Eh... take a look at the map again. The Wall is 300 miles long...

[YoungGriff89]

Tower of Joy is nowhere near the water - it's in the Prince's Pass, right up in the mountains.

Moreover, how would you explain that no one knew that the royal party wasn't on Dragonstone - Stannis took Dragonstone, he would have asked around about whether the royal court was there?

Not if a wizard told him not to ;) To believe is possible for there to be some secret Dany is really Rhaegar's daughter cover up (which for a while I entertained as possible when I was randomly thinking about it at work one day) you have to ignore the bigger question of what does it do for the story?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What's wrong with R and L fathering Jon? What's wrong with Dany being actually Aerys and Rhaella's daughter? What's wrong with Brandon not have been able to father a known kid? What's wrong with T, J and C being actually Tywin's? Why everybody has to be someone's secret child?

The other night, I was tuning G'sA for my weekly dosis of McKidd and apparently, Meredith has just found out she has another secret sister... wow... maybe that's the fandom you would feel more comfortable with.

Are these threads genuine, or is PJ doing some PRing?

I've actually come to think that at some point...

[Mladen]

What's wrong with R and L fathering Jon? What's wrong with Dany being actually Aerys and Rhaella's daughter? What's wrong with Brandon not have been able to father a known kid? What's wrong with T, J and C being actually Tywin's? Why everybody has to be someone's secret child?

The other night, I was tuning G'sA for my weekly dosis of McKidd and apparently, Meredith has just found out she has another secret sister... wow... maybe that's the fandom you would feel more comfortable with.

Hey, don't badmouth Greys... I still watch it... As idiotic as it is... :)

And I recommend Latinoamerican soap-operas. They invented the secret child thing...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Hey, don't badmouth Greys... I still watch it... As idiotic as it is... :)

And I recommend Latinoamerican soap-operas. They invented the secret child thing...

Damn, that's true... last soap opera that family was watching (and they kinda sucked me into it) was a about a lady that stole a child who was actually her own daughter's half sister because her lover had a legitimate family and... well. That. I'm trying to remember one that does not involve a child being lost or given away... can't.

[Mladen]

Damn, that's true... last soap opera that family was watching (and they kinda sucked me into it) was a about a lady that stole a child who was actually her own daughter's half sister because her lover had a legitimate family and... well. That. I'm trying to remember one that does not involve a child being lost or given away... can't.

Well, I come from country that was drowning in those TV shows, and then in 2009/10, we wee finally introduced to Turkish TV dramas that always ends in some tragedy and lastly with never-ending Indian shows... So, talk as much as you want, but US has some decent TV shows whatsoever :)

[BettyCrocker]

Are these threads genuine, or is PJ doing some PRing?

lol, no. I am not he. I just thought I should give credit where credit is due.

I came across his videos and thought they were interesting and worth considering. But, if there is a set time frame established somewhere about when Brandon died and when Jon was born, ect. then it may not hold as much water as I initially thought it did.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

lol, no. I am not he. I just thought I should give credit where credit is due.

I came across his videos and thought they were interesting and worth considering. But, if there is a set time frame established somewhere about when Brandon died and when Jon was born, ect. then it may not hold as much water as I initially thought it did.

Thanks for being a fan of the videos.

As I said in the videos and have said to the cast of characters responding to this thread a million times, Jon can simply be passed off as a few months younger. It's as simple as that. A challenge, sure, but doable. The real truth is that the timeline for Robert's Rebellion doesn't make sense to begin with, so no theory will be perfect. R+L=J has massive timeline problems as well with Ned warping around the map in no time. Of course, fans of that theory simply dismiss this hole as unimportant.

Welcome to the forum, by the way. R+L discussions tend to be pretty rude, but the rest of the forum can be pretty darn fun.

[True.Edged]

You totally got it wrong, the truth is R+L=A, and E+A=J. The promise was to keep A safe, which he did, by faking Ash's death and sending her with A to ensure he was taken care of. He never wanted to speak of Dayne, and freaked when Cat mentioned her, because it pained him so that he sent the love of his life to take care of his nephew who was the royal heir. It also made him a treasonous traitor to his best friend. Oh the weight of promises!

[Knight Of Winter]

And I recommend Latinoamerican soap-operas. They invented the secret child thing...

Damn, that's true... last soap opera that family was watching (and they kinda sucked me into it) was a about a lady that stole a child who was actually her own daughter's half sister because her lover had a legitimate family and... well. That. I'm trying to remember one that does not involve a child being lost or given away... can't.

Here we have a saying for characters in Mexican soap operas: be nice to your housekeeping maid. She's probably your mother.

Back to topic - timeline doesn't work; and just sheer amount of hints for R+L=J puts me away from other theories unless they're well-presented with massive textual evidence. This one isn't. Generally I like watching Preston Jacobs' videos, for they provide interesting insights and perspective, but he's way too eager to jump to conclusions based on very little info available.