Bakker XXXII: The Acts of Fane

[Callan S.]

I think soul-binding - as in the Wathi doll and Synthese - creates a Mark, but not compulsions [/possession]. But if Achamian thought that compelling Inrau would Mark him as Bakkakefans says then that begs the question why Esmenet was not Marked.

Because Akka is just guessing?

Or was making up rationalising excuses to not use Inrau as an Mandate asset.

[lokisnow]

Edit: reading comprehension is a bitch, doh

[jurble]

So why do Anagogic mages always use the damn dragon's head to attack people? You think for fighting massed infantry a tidal wave would be an effective analogy. Especially since 'tidal wave' evokes more meaning than dragonhead+fire, since how many Anagogic mages have actually seen a dragon? Even if they haven't seen a tsunami, a sensory knowledge of a regular wave would probably aid in reinforcing the meaning of the spell in someone's mind.

[Anatúrinbor]

You mean like the Meppa Cataract?

[lokisnow]

So why do Anagogic mages always use the damn dragon's head to attack people? You think for fighting massed infantry a tidal wave would be an effective analogy. Especially since 'tidal wave' evokes more meaning than dragonhead+fire, since how many Anagogic mages have actually seen a dragon? Even if they haven't seen a tsunami, a sensory knowledge of a regular wave would probably aid in reinforcing the meaning of the spell in someone's mind.

I dunno maybe because of dungeons and dragons?

[Callan S.]

So why do Anagogic mages always use the damn dragon's head to attack people? You think for fighting massed infantry a tidal wave would be an effective analogy. Especially since 'tidal wave' evokes more meaning than dragonhead+fire, since how many Anagogic mages have actually seen a dragon? Even if they haven't seen a tsunami, a sensory knowledge of a regular wave would probably aid in reinforcing the meaning of the spell in someone's mind.

As I understand it magic is essentially tricking the system/the world. Tricking it for a massive wave would be harder than a smaller trick. Possibly also the idea of a dragon makes it easier to trick - it understands waves better and can see the difference. While dragons blow its mind. A bit like fantasy readers... :)

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Why is it preferable that esmenet wait and starve and die for aka when everyone is pretty certain he's dead or soon will be dead at the hands of the scarlet spires. Esmenet waited until the whole host had left and then had to be dragged away whilst protesting, what the duck more do the jilted esmenetdidntwait folks want?

I understand and you explain so well, it was the rational choice Esement, especially after Kellhus used her for her Norman bloodline (in my mind goes without saying), then used his lies and deception to woo her), so Esement truly means nothing to Kellhus otherthan his brood. And in the TJE she seems to comes this realization. Hell, doesn't even feel the same way about him. And somehow, someway I can see Esement, Akka, and Mimara reunited. In the end as Mimara as the true Anasürimbor of the Celmmoman prophet (CRACKPOT: KELMOMMAS COULD BETHE FULLMINT ALSO, HENCE I THINK HE'S THE CLOSET TO Kellhus of all his children.) Now, as far as Kellhus dead and Mimara (Celmmoman Prophecy) and Esement and as Akka/seseatha concubine. Parallel, it makes lot of since. Hence TSTSNBN. Own little theory, thoughts and mockery welcome, LOL!

[jurble]

You mean like the Meppa Cataract?

That's presumably a cataract (a waterfall), not a tidal wave.

[Hello World]

So why do Anagogic mages always use the damn dragon's head to attack people? You think for fighting massed infantry a tidal wave would be an effective analogy. Especially since 'tidal wave' evokes more meaning than dragonhead+fire, since how many Anagogic mages have actually seen a dragon? Even if they haven't seen a tsunami, a sensory knowledge of a regular wave would probably aid in reinforcing the meaning of the spell in someone's mind.

That's presumably a cataract (a waterfall), not a tidal wave.

I don’t see how Anagogic sorcerers always use the dragonhead, TTT lists several cants besides the Dragon, and you have the Anagogic Daimos as well. As for why they don’t use tidal waves, I don’t think a single Anagogic sorcerer could create such a thing, a waterfall is probably the best you can get.

[Ser Drizztos]

The Dragonsheads, arguably the most powerful anogogic cant, is said to work only because they conjure the imaginary dragonhead as a catalyst for the fire. What do you suggest they use as a catalyst for tidal waves?

[Larry of the Lawn]

As I understand it magic is essentially tricking the system/the world. Tricking it for a massive wave would be harder than a smaller trick. Possibly also the idea of a dragon makes it easier to trick - it understands waves better and can see the difference. While dragons blow its mind. A bit like fantasy readers... :)

I agree. It's because DRAGONZZZZ!! WOOT(TEAT)!!!!!.

[Happy Ent]

So why do Anagogic mages always use the damn dragon's head to attack people? You think for fighting massed infantry a tidal wave would be an effective analogy.

For massed infantry in formation they seem to prefer the Falling Sun.

If the enemy is spread out or moves about a lot, they seem to use the Dragonhead. I assume it covers a larger area and can be swept about, much like a flamethrower. It does less damage than the Falling Sun.

If the enemy is in a house, the Burning Sparrows are used. Even less damage, but they can get behind walls.

Other attack spells are the Meppa Cataract and the Memkotic Furies, but we don’t know much about them.

[jurble]

The Dragonsheads, arguably the most powerful anogogic cant, is said to work only because they conjure the imaginary dragonhead as a catalyst for the fire. What do you suggest they use as a catalyst for tidal waves?

I think the head provides a fount for directionality of the fire. They rely on analogy and lacking flamethrowers, a dragon's head is the best way for them to describe flames in an outward cone e,g. "From my hands, as a dragon's head breathing fire." Presumably "From my hands, as a dragon's breath" would function just as well, but they desire the theatrical aspect of a dragon's head. A tidal wave wouldn't need an equivalent of a dragon's head, because "From my hands, as a tidal wave" is effective enough.

[Callan S.]

I agree. It's because DRAGONZZZZ!! WOOT(TEAT)!!!!!.

YOU MUST TELL ME, WHEN DO YOU SEE THE NEXT BOOK BEING PUBLISHED!?

[Sci-2]

I think the head provides a fount for directionality of the fire. They rely on analogy and lacking flamethrowers, a dragon's head is the best way for them to describe flames in an outward cone e,g. "From my hands, as a dragon's head breathing fire." Presumably "From my hands, as a dragon's breath" would function just as well, but they desire the theatrical aspect of a dragon's head. A tidal wave wouldn't need an equivalent of a dragon's head, because "From my hands, as a tidal wave" is effective enough.

I think you need to actually have the dragon's head for Anagogic sorcery to work. Additionally, I suspect it's better to have the conjured head sweeping the battlefield around you as I presume it's more flexible.

For an attack that emerges from one's person, like HE noted the Burning Sparrows should suffice but this wouldn't be as effect against multiple enemies in an open area.

[lokisnow]

"Your suffering, seswatha, is my salvation."

So says mekeritrig, thoughts? Contextually, it's about memory, but I think it might be a clue, inverted Jesus. Instead of Jesus offering salvation by suffering in all others stead, this suggests salvation is achievable by making others suffer on your behalf.

Crackpot. What if the suffering of the mandate is nothing more than an attempt to ensure seswathas salvation. Alternatively, what if seswathas immortality is suffering inflicted upon him willingly or unwillingly on behalf of someone else?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

"Your suffering, seswatha, is my salvation."

So says mekeritrig, thoughts? Contextually, it's about memory, but I think it might be a clue, inverted Jesus. Instead of Jesus offering salvation by suffering in all others stead, this suggests salvation is achievable by making others suffer on your behalf.

Crackpot. What if the suffering of the mandate is nothing more than an attempt to ensure seswathas salvation. Alternatively, what if seswathas immortality is suffering inflicted upon him willingly or unwillingly on behalf of someone else?

I'll give you this, there's gonna be something twisted about Seswatha revealed in TUC.

[jurble]

I think you need to actually have the dragon's head for Anagogic sorcery to work.

And why's that? Do you need nests for the sparrows? And whence their flames? Do you conjure magical oil pour it onto the sparrows, a magical match strike it, and let them fly? The head is plainly theatrics.

[Sci-2]

And why's that? Do you need nests for the sparrows? And whence their flames? Do you conjure magical oil pour it onto the sparrows, a magical match strike it, and let them fly? The head is plainly theatrics.

So sorcers are willing to engage in theatrics in life & death situations? The same sorcerers that are continually told death holds endless torture for them?

Anagogic sorcery works by analogy, which suggests its anchored by subjetive experiences in the world. Otherwise what anchors the analogies. This differs from Gnosis which turns on grasping the logical universals that are mental phenomena separate from our experienced images ("cartoons" as Bakker calls them) of reality.

In the case of sparrows, the fire flies like a flock of sparrows. That's fine when you just need flames to travel around obstacles to strike a single person. When you want to control the temperature of the flames, as well as being able to sweep the enemy below with fire, you need the spell to be like a dragon's head using its breath weapon.

That's also why the Dragon's Head spell can't breath ice, acid, poisonous gas, or lightning, nor can you have five heads each with a different breath weapon.

[jurble]

So sorcers are willing to engage in theatrics in life & death situations? The same sorcerers that are continually told death holds endless torture for them?

If the theatrical component doesn't actually affect the spells efficacy, why not? Or even if it does, they think the terror of the dragon's head a worthy trade-off for efficacy. The dragon's head isn't a tool you use to combat other mages. It's used when fighting rabble, and groups like the Scarlet Spires hold them in such little regard, I wouldn't be surprised if do consider the benefits of terror to outweigh any advantage gained from removing the head. And the number of mages that actually believe in the afterlife, at least until Kellhus, are a minority.

Anagogic sorcery works by analogy, which suggests its anchored by subjetive experiences in the world. Otherwise what anchors the analogies. This differs from Gnosis which turns on grasping the logical universals that are mental phenomena separate from our experienced images ("cartoons" as Bakker calls them) of reality.

In the case of sparrows, the fire flies like a flock of sparrows. That's fine when you just need flames to travel around obstacles to strike a single person. When you want to control the temperature of the flames, as well as being able to sweep the enemy below with fire, you need the spell to be like a dragon's head using its breath weapon.

And why not, just as easily summon fire like a dragon's breath? If fire can fly like a flock sparrows, it can do the same as a dragon's breath. An anagogic mage has never seen a dragon, adding the head doesn't reinforce the spell's meaning and at worst would effect it negatively as it relies on the strength of an imagined mental dragon. The head offers no advantages, unless mages really can't be bothered to hold their hands in front of them and direct it manually, at which point its advantage depends on the rotational capacity of the head.