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Forever May

Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

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It seems that Aegon I was sterile, and Rhaenys and Visenya chose different ways to get 'impregnated by him' anyway. Rhaenys chose a sperm-donor from her favorites (most likely with blond hair and blue eyes), and Visenya may have used magic to make use of Aegon's sperms that way, making Maegor the only true son of the Conqueror (and perhaps also explaining why Visenya pushed Maegor's claim against Aenys).



I'm pretty sure both was done with Aegon's consent, as he would have realized that he was incapable of fathering an heir 'the usual way'. Maegor seems to be created effectively as a last resort, as 'The Sons of the Dragon' suggests that Aegon feared the boy might die in the wake of Rhaenys' death in Dorne. The Lords were pushing Aegon to take another wife to replace Rhaenys, as Visenya was believed to be barren.



Since there are no paternity tests in Westeros, it is to be expected that some children are not really descended from their official fathers.



Not being descended from Aegon I does not make Aenys and the whole Targaryen dynasty scarce any less Targaryen, as they are all descended from Rhaenys/Aenys, and Alyssa Velaryon, who also had Targaryen ancestors.


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We can't assume that Aegon was sterile. Occasionally, it does turn that non-sterile parents find it very difficult to conceive children.

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Rhaenys and Visenya clearly could conceive. Aegon was married to both his sisters for at least nine years when Aenys was finally born in 7 AC (they were already married when the Conquest began in 2 BC, and we have no idea when they married - it could have been as early as 10 BC, if we consider the age of the siblings in 2 BC).



We know that Aegon shared Rhaenys' bed much more often than Visenya's, yet he failed to conceive an heir (either male or female) for nearly a decade, perhaps even two decades). That does not make it likely that he was fertile, especially as he had two wives. He may have shared Visenya's bed not as often, but when the need for an heir arose (immediately after the Conquest), one would expect that Aegon shared both Rhaenys' and Visenya's bed at the right time for them to conceive.



There are also subtle clues that the infertility of the Lord of Dragonstone was not exactly unknown, as Queen Regent Sharra Arryn had the audacity to suggest that Aegon name her son, King Ronnel Arryn, his heir, when she offered to marry him. This is a pretty big hint that she may have expected that Aegon Targaryen would never be capable of having an heir of his own body.



We could even assume that Argilac's offer had also something to do with that, as he would have expected that, if Aegon did not father a child on Argella, Aegon could never possibly lay claim to the Stormlands in the name of his child by Argella. Rather, the Targaryen holdings would fall to him or Argella after Aegon's death.



Finally it is rather suspicious that neither Yandel (nor Gyldayn in 'The Sons of the Dragon') mention any miscarriages, stillbirths, early death etc. for either Rhaenys or Visenya. If that was the case, I'd concede that Aegon could impregnate a woman, but in absence of that, I very much doubt it.



Aegon does not have to be completely sterile (i.e. not producing viable sperm) but may rather have been a man whose sperm could not possibly inseminate a woman under normal circumstances. Absent artificial insemination, Visenya had to use magic to make it work (explaining Maegor's overall weirdness), whereas Rhaenys looked for a sperm-donor elsewhere.



This was not treason/betrayal etc., but a service to the dynasty, as the Targaryens were desperately in need of an heir, especially in light of the fact that the First Dornish War could very well have led not only to the death of Rhaenys, but also to the death of Visenya and Aegon himself.


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Tyranny, insanity, succession wars, rebellions, and bloody conquests - and what finally turns you off to the Targaryens is loose women and the prospect that the dynasty might not be the product of incest? Why does it matter?

Incest isn't all it's cracked up to be, anyway. By all rights the Targaryens should be way more messed up than they are, but My Little Westeros: Genetics Is Magic intervenes to save the day once again.

:agree: So what if Rhaenys didn't love Aegon as much as he loved her. In some relationships the feelings aren't always completely mutual. At any rate, even if Aenys isn't Aegon's child, his mother was still a Targaryen (after all, Aegon and Rahenys were siblings) and she was a dragon rider. As TPatQ demonstrates, you don't need to be legitimate to ride a dragon. Dany would still be a Targaryen and a dragon rider, she just wouldn't be descended from Aegon.

We can't assume that Aegon was sterile. Occasionally, it does turn that non-sterile parents find it very difficult to conceive children.

That's true, but Rhaenys might have assumed he was, after years of marriage with no child. I think that Rhaenys had other lovers and that the Aegon was sterile theory has merit but I'm not sure entirely she passed off her child by random mummer as Aegon's.

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Hmmm...



OP, if I understand you right, your issue with that was mostly the fact that Aegon (apparently) loved Rhaenys, but Rhaenys (apparently) went out of her way to have sex with other men behind his back and (apparently) had a child that was not even his in Aerys, right? I mean, you mentioned the blood thing, but frankly, you don't seem to care so much about that. It seems to be, how can I say... a "formal excuse" for you to point out what really bothers you.



And if I'm right about that, I can sympatize with you.



I mean, come on, this is basically the same that if, say, Ned fell in love with Catelyn, but Catelyn didn't love her and took other men to her bed when he was away, even going so far a to father children with these men and pass them as his. That is, at the very least, a very, very dickish thing to do. It's understandable in this setting not to love your wife/husband, but if they love you and treat you with all due respect, then you should at least respect them too. If Rhaenys really did all that is rumored that she did, then she was arguarbly worse as a wife than Cersei.


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The whole concept of Rhaenys as a slut makes little sense. Yes, she surrounded herself with favorites - dancers, mummers, and the like - but this does not have to mean that she did not love her brother-husband (on the other hand, it would hardly be surprising if she had lots of affairs, as it is rather unusual to be physical attracted to your own sibling, let alone to be deeply and romantically in love with him/her your whole life).



But my guess is that if she had affairs then most likely with Aegon's permission, and with the goal in mind to conceive the heir House Targaryen desperately needed.


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A few things:

Rumours can hold truth, but the thing is, it is easier to whisper about a dead woman, than about one who survived for 34 more years..

Second, the rumours began because Aenys wasn't as warrior-like as Aegon I. He was a sickly child.. so what? A child being sickly doesn't mean that his father is a singer? But it was enough for whispers, and with Rhaenys' death occurring only three years later, she had only few years to defend herself (should she have felt the need).

No miscarriages or stillbirths are mentioned for Rhaenys or Visenya.. that doesn't mean there weren't any. There were only a few pages on the reign of Aegon I.. after all. Fire and Blood, where Aegon I AMD Aenys I are.concerned, don't seem to mention any either, but Maegors reign has not yet been read.. perhaps the comparison will be made there, with his own children.. there is still a possibility.

Aegon felt secure enough to name Aenys his heir, a position he filled for 30 years. This doesn't proof Rhaenys was faithful, but it does make you wonder... If Aegon was truly infertile, wouldn't magic have been their first solution?

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Dragons are magical beasts and Aegon rode Balerion too much. Perhaps that took its toll on Aegon's balls.


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Rhaenys,



I really think George deliberately inserted this whole thing to cast doubt on the heritage of the whole Targaryen dynasty. That's something he would do...



'The Sons of the Dragon' discussed Rhaenys and Visenya's sons, and I'm pretty sure we would have gotten any stillbirths/children who died in the cradle if there had been any, as Gyldayn also mentioned Aenys' daughter Vaella, who for all intends and purpose was pretty much irrelevant, as she died in the cradle.



Since we don't know much about 'fertility magic' in Martinworld (or magic in general) one could speculate that the spell Visenya used had to be worked by the woman who was trying to conceive, and thus Rhaenys - who was not a sorceress - was incapable of doing it. Another possibility would be that Visenya's magically impregnated herself, creating a male clone of herself (no idea if stuff like that works in Martinworld). In such a scenario she would have slept with Aegon for appearances sake, and afterwards gone through the magical ritual.


But I'd prefer it if Maegor was truly Aegon's only son, with a spell 'assisting' in his conception. That fact would actually vindicate Visenya a lot, especially if she had known/suspected the truth about Aenys' heritage. In that case, Maegor would have been Aegon's true heir, and she may have even been honor-bound to remove him and his whole line...


The fact that Aenys was born first by Rhaenys also suggests that Aegon/Rhaenys wanted Rhaenys' child to inherit the Iron Throne, not Visenya's, suggesting that Aegon/Rhaenys did not tell Visenya about 'their way' to conceive an heir.



'The Sons of the Dragon' really makes it appear as if Aegon only turned to Visenya after he had no other choice - Rhaenys was dead, Aenys seemed to be dying/was unlikely to survive to adulthood, and the Lords were pushing him to take another wife (who then, most likely, would also have proved to be barren, causing even more trouble for the dynasty).



But you are right that the rumors Yandel repeats don't seem to touch upon the core of this whole thing. They seem to originate with biased people, who have difficulties to believe that weakly Aenys could be Aegon's seed. That in itself proves nothing. But they may have been right even if they were wrong. I don't believe the foul rumors about Rhaenys and her many lovers, as I'm pretty sure that Aegon and his sisters were capable of keeping their secrets secret. No one dares to suggest openly that Aegon may have been sterile, after all.


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I mean, come on, this is basically the same that if, say, Ned fell in love with Catelyn, but Catelyn didn't love her and took other men to her bed when he was away, even going so far a to father children with these men and pass them as his. That is, at the very least, a very, very dickish thing to do. It's understandable in this setting not to love your wife/husband, but if they love you and treat you with all due respect, then you should at least respect them too. If Rhaenys really did all that is rumored that she did, then she was arguarbly worse as a wife than Cersei.

Are you taking the piss?

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I really don't understand this forum. First Jon Snow was a Targaryen then Tyrion became a Targaryen. Then everyone from Darkstar to Varys to Meera Reed is a Targaryen. However Aegon appeared late so he can't be a Targaryen.



Now according to the OP Nobody is a Targaryen! I see the reason for your disillusions.


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Rhaenys,

I really think George deliberately inserted this whole thing to cast doubt on the heritage of the whole Targaryen dynasty. That's something he would do...

'The Sons of the Dragon' discussed Rhaenys and Visenya's sons, and I'm pretty sure we would have gotten any stillbirths/children who died in the cradle if there had been any, as Gyldayn also mentioned Aenys' daughter Vaella, who for all intends and purpose was pretty much irrelevant, as she died in the cradle.

Since we don't know much about 'fertility magic' in Martinworld (or magic in general) one could speculate that the spell Visenya used had to be worked by the woman who was trying to conceive, and thus Rhaenys - who was not a sorceress - was incapable of doing it. Another possibility would be that Visenya's magically impregnated herself, creating a male clone of herself (no idea if stuff like that works in Martinworld). In such a scenario she would have slept with Aegon for appearances sake, and afterwards gone through the magical ritual.

But I'd prefer it if Maegor was truly Aegon's only son, with a spell 'assisting' in his conception. That fact would actually vindicate Visenya a lot, especially if she had known/suspected the truth about Aenys' heritage. In that case, Maegor would have been Aegon's true heir, and she may have even been honor-bound to remove him and his whole line...

The fact that Aenys was born first by Rhaenys also suggests that Aegon/Rhaenys wanted Rhaenys' child to inherit the Iron Throne, not Visenya's, suggesting that Aegon/Rhaenys did not tell Visenya about 'their way' to conceive an heir.

'The Sons of the Dragon' really makes it appear as if Aegon only turned to Visenya after he had no other choice - Rhaenys was dead, Aenys seemed to be dying/was unlikely to survive to adulthood, and the Lords were pushing him to take another wife (who then, most likely, would also have proved to be barren, causing even more trouble for the dynasty).

But you are right that the rumors Yandel repeats don't seem to touch upon the core of this whole thing. They seem to originate with biased people, who have difficulties to believe that weakly Aenys could be Aegon's seed. That in itself proves nothing. But they may have been right even if they were wrong. I don't believe the foul rumors about Rhaenys and her many lovers, as I'm pretty sure that Aegon and his sisters were capable of keeping their secrets secret. No one dares to suggest openly that Aegon may have been sterile, after all.

It could be that Aenys wasn't Aegons. I won't be dismissing be the idea. Aegon named him heir, over any other bloodrelative (the same way Corlys named Addam and later Alyn as his heir over his own nephews, or supposed grandchildren), so no matter Aenys' parentage, he rightfully inherited... And, he would have been half a Targaryen no matter what, anyway. So the Targaryen line did continue.

I'm not really certain what to make of Visenya. If she truly magically became pregnant with Maegor, it would appear she cared about the bloodline continuing... Yet with Maegor in exile and Aenys ill, she take over care for Aenys, and he gets better. (that, I find, is also the strange part about the rumours concerning her role in Aenys' death.. he first got better when she took over.. it was only later that he died).

I would find it more likely that she wanted Maegor to take the throne over Aegon, besides personal ambition (which, as Queen Dowager who practically ruled for quite some time, would be unavidable..), that Maegor was an adult, and strong, and as she had raised him, she'd know exactly what he could handle.. their family needed to survive, here was no room for hesitating rulers.

We know little about Prince Aegon.. was he a bit like Aenys? That could have strengthened Visenya's wish to put Maegor on the throne during the uprisings.

In any case, while it could have been that Aegon didn't have any sons conceived the regular way, the rumours concerning Aenys are biased, indeed..

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Are you taking the piss?

Isn't there a "theory" that the father of Catelyn's children is in fact Maester Luwin?

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Are you taking the piss?

No. If I was taking a piss, I would not be able to write. Hands would be busy. Duh.

Also, that's my opinion. If you don't agree, suit yourself; I'm not going to force it upon you. But, hey, a little secret: it's valid interpretation. In my opinion, a woman that cheats openly in a husband that loves and treats her well and goes to the point of passing another man child as his is a horrible wife and person. For example: Robert and Cersei are terrible husband and wife, respectively. I think we can agree with that. As much of a terrible wife Cersei, however, she has excuses like Robert's abuse. Rhaenys, in that case, would not have this excuse; as far as we know, Aegon loved and treated her well, and his marriage to Visenya was because of duty. Of course, she can (and should) be unsatisfied about this and pretty pissed off, but openly humiliating him and passing another man son as his would be a dispropornate retribution. Life, "x slapped me, so I cut off his fingers".

So... can you see why I think the way I do? As a wife, Rhaenys would be worse than Cersei, since she would be doing "worse" (arguably; Cersei had children with her twin brother, but it was a secret and, before the war, was only with him. Rhaenys apparently had sex with many men openly, which led to rumors) and with less justification (say what you will, but as far as I see, Aegon is a much better husband than Bob).

On second thought, I theoretically

could piss without hands. Freestyle. However, things would probably go out of control. I could accidentally piss on my shoes, and that would be bad. At any rate, no, I was not taking a piss.

... But I'm kind of feeling the need right now.

... Be back in a sec.

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No. If I was taking a piss, I would not be able to write. Hands would be busy. Duh.

Also, that's my opinion. If you don't agree, suit yourself; I'm not going to force it upon you. But, hey, a little secret: it's valid interpretation. In my opinion, a woman that cheats openly in a husband that loves and treats her well and goes to the point of passing another man child as his is a horrible wife and person. For example: Robert and Cersei are terrible husband and wife, respectively. I think we can agree with that. As much of a terrible wife Cersei, however, she has excuses like Robert's abuse. Rhaenys, in that case, would not have this excuse; as far as we know, Aegon loved and treated her well, and his marriage to Visenya was because of duty. Of course, she can (and should) be unsatisfied about this and pretty pissed off, but openly humiliating him and passing another man son as his would be a dispropornate retribution. Life, "x slapped me, so I cut off his fingers".

So... can you see why I think the way I do? As a wife, Rhaenys would be worse than Cersei, since she would be doing "worse" (arguably; Cersei had children with her twin brother, but it was a secret and, before the war, was only with him. Rhaenys apparently had sex with many men openly, which led to rumors) and with less justification (say what you will, but as far as I see, Aegon is a much better husband than Bob).

As Lord Varys has argued, the dynasty needed an heir. If Rhaenys gave birth to another man's child, in order that the dynasty should have an heir, then she was performing a service to her husband. And, in all likelihood, she would have done it with her husband's approval.

In any case, Aenys may well have been Aegon's child.

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As Lord Varys has argued, the dynasty needed an heir. If Rhaenys gave birth to another man's child, in order that the dynasty should have an heir, then she was performing a service to her husband. And, in all likelihood, she would have done it with her husband's approval.

In any case, Aenys may well have been Aegon's child.

Oh, sure. I'm not contesting that. Truth be told, I don't really care about her. However, I can see how some people can be pretty annoyed by that and made comparisons so as to show it.

Then I was accused of taking a piss.

Which I absolutely did not.

I mean, I took a piss right now, but not at the time.

That hurt my feelings, being accused injustly. Sniff.

But, anyway... yeah, considering that, if she really did all that, Aegon never did anything, it's probable that he "let her free" or even approved of that. Of course, he could just be too deep in love with her to notice, but that would be far too "romantic" and this is ASOIAF.

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