The Red Widow of Coldmoat Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 That's a pretty safe bet... But are you suggesting that Dany's bedroom window opened up into a greenhouse? If so, it would be equivalent to a greenhouse in Venice, which given the value of the local real estate, would probably not be very realistic. -- Why do readers have such a hard time accepting that GRRM's story has yet another layer of depth/intrigue??? There are probably 4 to 5 books yet to come, the picture we have today of Martin's World barely scratches the surface... Give any single reason we should expect that many more books, especially when Martin has explicitly intended far fewer than 9 or 10 books, and only recently seems to have entertained the idea of an 8th book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Why do readers have such a hard time accepting that GRRM's story has yet another layer of depth/intrigue??? There are probably 4 to 5 books yet to come, the picture we have today of Martin's World barely scratches the surface... Because the lemon tree thing is not layer of depth but of nonsense. Utter nonsense that no one who actually believes in it can comprehensively answer what this theory serves for. No one in entire "lemon tree" camp can actually articulate what would be the purpose of the theory, which for an literary work such as ASOIAF, is quintessential. We are definitely not expecting 4-5 books, but actually 2. We have dug deep in Martin's world. Actually, to be precise, some have dug deep. Some have scratched the surface. Hence, lemon tree nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Give any single reason we should expect that many more books, especially when Martin has explicitly intended far fewer than 9 or 10 books, and only recently seems to have entertained the idea of an 8th book.Is this a serious question? Let's just stop & think about it for a second... It started out as a trilogy & now he is entertaining an 8th book... Logic & common sense should immediately tell you that the series will end up being at least 9 books long, probably more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Because the lemon tree thing is not layer of depth but of nonsense. Utter nonsense that no one who actually believes in it can comprehensively answer what this theory serves for. No one in entire "lemon tree" camp can actually articulate what would be the purpose of the theory, which for an literary work such as ASOIAF, is quintessential. We are definitely not expecting 4-5 books, but actually 2. We have dug deep in Martin's world. Actually, to be precise, some have dug deep. Some have scratched the surface. Hence, lemon tree nonsense. Wow, be ready to eat those words, hahahaI don't have a lemon tree theory, just for the record... A theory is not required to realize that GRRM is up to something...You do understand that? Right??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Wow, be ready to eat those words, hahahaI don't have a lemon tree theory, just for the record... A theory is not required to realize that GRRM is up to something...You do understand that? Right??? And yet another proof of inability to answer some very basic question of the idea/theory/whatever you call it. Simply, the "lemon tree" camp is unable to give any sort of substantial answer. Can't say I am actually surprised. Actually it is quite predictable. Ask the basic literary question and expect avoidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 And yet another proof of inability to answer some very basic question of the idea/theory/whatever you call it. Simply, the "lemon tree" camp is unable to give any sort of substantial answer. Can't say I am actually surprised. Actually it is quite predictable. Ask the basic literary question and expect avoidance.A random reader like myself does not have to invent a theory before GRRM can use a plot device in HIS story... He's the one who incorporated the plot device to begin with you know...OMG, you people can be so funny sometimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 A random reader like myself does not have to invent a theory before GRRM can use a plot device in HIS story... He's the one who incorporated the plot device to begin with you know...OMG, you people can be so funny sometimes Yeah, I am aware we are hilarious. Now, this may come as news for you, but ASOIAF, as book series, is a literary work. And as such, it has some rules, one of them is that any plot device needs to have a purpose. So, here I am, asking you what is the purpose of the "lemon tree" plot device. I am not asking for theory, just the reason why do you think "lemon tree" is actually a plot device and what is its purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Yeah, I am aware we are hilarious. Now, this may come as news for you, but ASOIAF, as book series, is a literary work. And as such, it has some rules, one of them is that any plot device needs to have a purpose. So, here I am, asking you what is the purpose of the "lemon tree" plot device. I am not asking for theory, just the reason why do you think "lemon tree" is actually a plot device and what is its purpose.Good question! That is something we will discover in the remaining books...Martin has stated that the Wall's ability to block warg communications is another plot device. Do we know why? No, we have to wait until the plot unfolds before we understand the actual pot divices... This is partly where the mystery/intrigue comes from... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Well, first why does Lyanna get to decide anything? She's obviously incredibly sick and dying at this point--and I think Lyanna knew that. Given that she probably knew that Rhaegar was dead, along with Aegon, that means baby boy Jon is the heir (if married, so go with me). She's dying and she knows the 3 KG have their vow to protect the king...which means that she's going to hand over baby boy Jon. There are virtually no other options that safeguard that baby. Ned might love her, but until she gets that promise from him, how can she know what he'll do? Oh, I don't know that she does, necessarily. I may have misread your comment, that "The 3KG at the TOJ would take Jon and spirit him away, protecting him and raising him for R and L and then bring him back someday...?" I took that to mean that you thought a trip to Essos, a secret childhood, and an education in the ways of princely responsibility would be something Lyanna might have chosen for Jon. But if there's anything we're all pretty much in agreement about around here, I think it's the fact that Lyanna made Ned promise to raise and protect her son... at Winterfell. ('Course, maybe that's a wrong assumption on my part... and we're not all in agreement about that.) Anyway, given that particular request of Lyanna's seems likely... it was hard for me to imagine that a KG-sponsored trip East would have been what Lyanna wanted. But again, maybe I misunderstood. I agree with what you're saying but given that it's the TOJ and that the TOJ is a giant PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS THING in ASOIAF (going with RLJ or your suggestions, either or works...) I think we need to pay more attention to those names... I'm game. Kingsgrave sounds pretty obvious. How about Nightsong? Is that also obvious? For my first stab at connecting the two... I'll put forward Rhaegar, with his harp, at Summerhall. Singing of dead kings, at night and whatnot. Now it's your turn. What've you got? Fair enough. Like many things, I think it is intentionally ambiguous.If Aegon is real, I would not find it strange for Illyrio to show him fatherly affection. After all, Aegon was his ward, at least for a time... Is that confirmed in the text? I'd actually wondered if this was the case... if Aegon was raised in Illyrio's manse while much younger... but I don't remember reading anything particular to confirm it, and hadn't yet had a chance to go back and look for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I don't remember reading anything particular to confirm it, and hadn't yet had a chance to go back and look for it. I think Illyrio just happened to have a bunch of clothing for a young boy that fit Tyrion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Good question! That is something we will discover in the remaining books... Seriously? And I thought we were the ones who are hilarious. Martin has stated that the Wall's ability to block warg communications is another plot device. Do we know why? No, we have to wait until the plot unfolds before we understand the actual pot divices... This is partly where the mystery/intrigue comes from... There is a difference. Martin told us that, practically saying "this is plot device", same for Sansa's warging etc. We can speculate what each of those things mean. But, if you claim something is a plot device, you are also supposed to answer what it serves for. If there is no answer, than it is just plain making stuff up. So, either "lemon tree" camp has some sort of an idea what this plot device serves for, so we could actually discuss it, or we can safely conclude that it isn't any sort of plot device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Yeah, I am aware we are hilarious. Now, this may come as news for you, but ASOIAF, as book series, is a literary work. And as such, it has some rules, one of them is that any plot device needs to have a purpose. So, here I am, asking you what is the purpose of the "lemon tree" plot device. I am not asking for theory, just the reason why do you think "lemon tree" is actually a plot device and what is its purpose.I will be shocked if you can get addicted to snow to provide ANY REASON for the nonsense he believes. He states that there is foreshadowing for his theory of "Jon dies, his soul goes into Ghost, goes North of the Wall, jumps into Hodor and becomes the Night's King", but he has yet to produce it. The rest of his theories are equally absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I think Illyrio just happened to have a bunch of clothing for a young boy that fit Tyrion... Thanks - yes that's a good point. Clearly it's been a while since I read that first chapter of ADWD. And as I recall, there's a nearly complete absence of male servants in Illyrio's household. (Frey Family Reunion once pointed out to me that in certain ways, Illyrio's manse bears an uncanny resemblance to Craster's Keep... what with a single dominant male surrounded by women subtly characterized as slaves. It's an intriguing connection, worth exploring further.) Anyway. Not sure that helps us to determine Young Griff's authenticity as a Targ, but it does suggest the boy spent some time with Illyrio in Pentos along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 [Aegon is] conspicuously absent from the list of dead Targaryens discussed by Ned and the 3KG at the tower of joy. And so is Rhaenys. In ACOK, Dany's HOTU vision introduces Aegon as the Prince who was promised. It introduces us to Prince Rhaegar telling Elia of Dorne that he thinks Aegon is. In ASOS, Tyrion says Gregor smashed Aegon's head and describes "his blood and his brains still on his hands" afterwards--another powerful hint that the baby Tywin presented to Robert could not be identified. I cannot follow you that this must mean the baby could not be identified. It means his head was a mess, but there are indeed other means to identify some one, if you take care to do so. Teeth (if he had any), eyes, ears, skin, hands, feet... Throw in all the dead people's heads that can't be recognized (Ned, Davos, the miller's boys) Why Ned and Davos? The miller's boys were indeed identifyed, were they not? Throw in all the dead people's heads that can't be recognized (Ned, Davos, the miller's boys) and the hidden princes thought to be dead but actually alive (Bran and Rickon; also Jaime's fear that Jeyne Stark may be pregnant) and I don't see how anyone could be surprised if it turns out that Aegon is alive. There is a bit of truth in the last part of the sentence, I admit. But while you don't see it, I'd be very surprised. We were there, when all the cliffhangers happened. We weren't there at the Sack. "Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."How can you read that without thinking that the "dashed skull" belonged to someone else? Very easily. I think Jorah has got a point - only that Rhaegar was wrong at the time, as he had been more than once before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I have detailed why it would be impossible for me to give you nature of a yet undeveloped plot device... I cannot help you...You think that GRRM made a mistake or it's just a coincidence that he mentioned Lemon Trees in the 'Mercy' chapter - I get that...I don't think it was a coincidence, because Having read the series, I understand how this this writer works...Time will tell, but the odds are in my favor as there are not many coincidences in GRRM-Land... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Dunno you guys, but I'm starting to develop a hate for lemon trees...I wonder how... I wonder why... I hate that lemon tree. Actually, the statement that Aegon is foreshadowed as alive is blatantly incorrect. What is foreshadowed is that the murdered baby couldn't be identified for certain, which ties in with the visions of an impostor. Yes. But I sorta think that was why Pycelle was killed. Of all the people in KL who could potentially I.D. Aegon and know that fAegon is in fact a fake...he'd be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I'm game. Kingsgrave sounds pretty obvious. How about Nightsong? Is that also obvious? For my first stab at connecting the two... I'll put forward Rhaegar, with his harp, at Summerhall. Singing of dead kings, at night and whatnot. Now it's your turn. What've you got? Ok well, without my morning coffee... KingsGrave = Rhaegar's dead. He is now in his grave of the Trident. And there is a new prince/king who is coming out of that pass.Nightsong = Dunno, honestly. That one is rather tricky. But you've got the Night's Watch and you've got a certain Song (of ice and fire) that, I believe, is heavily connected to Jon because of RLJ I think Illyrio just happened to have a bunch of clothing for a young boy that fit Tyrion... ....who are you and what have you done to Addicted to Snow? I don't think it was a coincidence, because Having read the series, I understand how this this writer works...Time will tell, but the odds are in my favor as there are not many coincidences in GRRM-Land... Ah yes. There's the AtS we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I hate that lemon tree.I'm tempted to swear at my lemon tree out of frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Martin has stated that the Wall's ability to block warg communications is another plot device. Do we know why? No, we have to wait until the plot unfolds before we understand the actual pot divices... This is partly where the mystery/intrigue comes from... Martin didnot say that the Wall blocks warging. He just said that why Jon didnot feel Ghost during a certain period of time will be important. As we see from other cases with Varamyr, BR and Bran, the Wall does not have any effect on skinchanging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 For all we know, Ghost was in a place in the north where warging doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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