R+L=J v.121

[Ser Cold Fingers]

The lemon tree could have been a bois d'arc (bodark) tree...and she saw hedge apples instead of lemons.

It's a hardy tree! Much more able to grow in Braavos. :D

[JonCon's Red Beard]

^lol... imagine the last chapter of ADOS with Dany being explained that she never say a lemon tree. "My Princess, I'm sorry but you saw a Maclura pomifera".

"A what?"

"An osage orange, hedge apple"

"Like a hedge knight?"

"A horse apple, monkey ball...", Victarion gruntled. "bois d'arc, bodark, or bodock"

"'bodock'", giggled Dany.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

^lol... imagine the last chapter of ADOS with Dany being explained that she never say a lemon tree. "My Princess, I'm sorry but you saw a Maclura pomifera".

"A what?"

"An osage orange, hedge apple"

"Like a hedge knight?"

"A horse apple, monkey ball...", Victarion gruntled. "bois d'arc, bodark, or bodock"

"'bodock'", giggled Dany.

It's as if GRRM penned that himself!

[Ser Cold Fingers]

So clearly Daenerys seeing a Maclura Pomifera (bodark) instead of a Lemon Tree, undeniably proves Rhaegar & Lyanna were married and they are the true parents of Jon Snow.

Whew...glad we wrapped that one up.

[markg171]

This does not follow, we do not know that Viserys was not yet 13. We have Tyrek, Ermesande Hayford, and Tommen all getting married earlier than 13. And those are just examples off the top of my head.

There is no direct relationship between sexual maturity and then and only then can you get married. Only then can a marriage be consummated.

Then trust in math.

Oberyn tried to raise Dorne for Viserys after the Sack. Jon Arryn put down that when he brought Prince Lewyn's bones to Doran. After that, Oberyn rarely left Dorne. So the most likely time for him to sign the marriage pact, is before Jon Arryn stopped him from raising Dorne.

The Sack occurred in 283. That makes Viserys at least 7 when Oberyn signed the pact. At most 8, seeing as it wouldn't have taken Jon long to bring Lewyn's bones to Dorne and he would have wished to quell the uprising as soon as possible.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Then trust in math.

Oberyn tried to raise Dorne for Viserys after the Sack. Jon Arryn put down that when he brought Prince Lewyn's bones to Doran. After that, Oberyn rarely left Dorne. So the most likely time for him to sign the marriage pact, is before Jon Arryn stopped him from raising Dorne.

The Sack occurred in 283. That makes Viserys at least 7 when Oberyn signed the pact. At most 8, seeing as it wouldn't have taken Jon long to bring Lewyn's bones to Dorne and he would have wished to quell the uprising as soon as possible.

The pact was signed in Braavos, that would make Viserys at least 8 when the pact was signed (he only went to Braavos about halfway through 284AC).

Darry fell ill in 289AC and died soon after (so most likely also 289AC, slightly possibly 290AC). So the pact was signed then the latest (making Viserys 13, slightly possbily 14).

It seems to be that children marry the earliest at 13, but most often, they marry quite some time later (girls in the range of 14-18, boys anywhere from 16 to mid-thirties). However, there are the obvious exceptions... Necessity (Tyrek Lannister marrying Emersande Hayford, so House Lannister can claim her lands before anyone else can; Tommen Baratheon and Margaery, to keep the IT's forces up top) can make it so that marriages occur at an earlier age..

[sj4iy]

Ah, sj4iy, you're taking the lemon tree thing hard, aren't you? Have a hug :) *hug*

LOL, thanks. I feel we must take a stand against the treacherous lemon!

/okay, not really

//I actually have a lemon tree

///I like lemons

////but still!!

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

That Oberyn seldom left Dorne after Robert's Rebellion does not mean that he never left. We have no reason to assume that Oberyn signed the marriage pact during the time period that he tried to raise Dorne for Viserys. In fact, that the marriage pact was signed in secret would lead me to believe that it was after he had given up on publically trying to continue the war against Robert

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That Oberyn seldom left Dorne after Robert's Rebellion does not mean that he never left. We have no reason to assume that Oberyn signed the marriage pact during the time period that he tried to raise Dorne for Viserys. In fact, that the marriage pact was signed in secret would lead me to believe that it was after he had given up on publically trying to continue the war against Robert

Doesn't everything about "seldom left Dorne" and the involvement of Arianne being promised as a bride show that the pact was definitly signed after Jon Arryn´s visit to Dorne?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Doesn't everything about "seldom left Dorne" and the involvement of Arianne being promised as a bride show that the pact was definitly signed after Jon Arryn´s visit to Dorne?

That makes sense.

[Ser Creighton]

Do you all see Baavos is a lie, a lie I tell you. Lemon Trees? There are no lemon trees in Braavos, tis not possible. Further evidence against Dany in Braavos, the house had a Red door. A door is Braavos? I think not there is no wood in Braavos, tis the stone city, wood is rare and magical in Baavos, to have a door? Are you all insane? There are no red doors in Braavos. I have not seen one mentioned ever by anyone other than Dany. There are no doors in Braavos.

In truth there are some very weird things about Dany and Viserys' life. Like not one Targaryen loyalist helped them, not one. They were living on the streets, they were beggars at times. But no help came to them. The Martells made a marriage contract with Vis. Now Viserys was never told about it, the author confirmed that much, but why didn't Darry say something to him when he became sick and was dying? If they were living with the Sea Lord he booted them and the Martells never tried to help them. You don't have to try and do an uprising or anything but for crying out loud put them up someplace. Ned was offering to take care of Roberts bastards, like the Martells could not afford to put two little kids in a nice little house some where. With I don't know maybe an adult and a teacher of some sort. Of course as soon as Dany got power, dip shit shows up, "you are never going to believe this but your brother and my sister were suppose to get hitched, so why don't we get hitched. Sure it says nothing about us, but fuck it, I love you I really do total stranger. No? Ok well I'll just steal your dragons, that should work out well for me. Oh fuck I died."

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Do you all see Baavos is a lie, a lie I tell you. Lemon Trees? There are no lemon trees in Braavos, tis not possible. Further evidence against Dany in Braavos, the house had a Red door. A door is Braavos? I think not there is no wood in Braavos, tis the stone city, wood is rare and magical in Baavos, to have a door? Are you all insane? There are no red doors in Braavos. I have not seen one mentioned ever by anyone other than Dany. There are no doors in Braavos.

In truth there are some very weird things about Dany and Viserys' life. Like not one Targaryen loyalist helped them, not one. They were living on the streets, they were beggars at times. But no help came to them. The Martells made a marriage contract with Vis. Now Viserys was never told about it, the author confirmed that much, but why didn't Darry say something to him when he became sick and was dying? If they were living with the Sea Lord he booted them and the Martells never tried to help them. You don't have to try and do an uprising or anything but for crying out loud put them up someplace. Ned was offering to take care of Roberts bastards, like the Martells could not afford to put two little kids in a nice little house some where. With I don't know maybe an adult and a teacher of some sort. Of course as soon as Dany got power, dip shit shows up, "you are never going to believe this but your brother and my sister were suppose to get hitched, so why don't we get hitched. Sure it says nothing about us, but fuck it, I love you I really do total stranger. No? Ok well I'll just steal your dragons, that should work out well for me. Oh fuck I died."

sj4iy...take a deep breathe...count to ten...lol

[JonCon's Red Beard]

In truth there are some very weird things about Dany and Viserys' life. Like not one Targaryen loyalist helped them, not one. They were living on the streets, they were beggars at times. But no help came to them.

My theory is that Griff said something like "poor girl, I should try to get her and protect her..." until he realised Viserys was with her and said "fuck them, that kid was awful...".

[sj4iy]

I agree that not everything makes sense about Dany's life, but I don't know if that's a hint of something mysterious or simply odd writing.

But I absolutely believe that Martin simply thought that Braavos was further south than it was when he started writing, and had a lemon tree there. He seems to even make fun of it in Mercy, so it's hard for me to take any theory dependent on this lemon tree seriously.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Mark_Evans

[JonSnow4President]

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Mark_Evans

Well, she clearly is either a Texas A&M (yay!) or Tambay Buccaneers (eww) football fan, and had an accidental prophetic vision of a great young player for each of those teams. She just got the name wrong.

Mike Evans

[markg171]

Do you all see Baavos is a lie, a lie I tell you. Lemon Trees? There are no lemon trees in Braavos, tis not possible. Further evidence against Dany in Braavos, the house had a Red door. A door is Braavos? I think not there is no wood in Braavos, tis the stone city, wood is rare and magical in Baavos, to have a door? Are you all insane? There are no red doors in Braavos. I have not seen one mentioned ever by anyone other than Dany. There are no doors in Braavos.

In truth there are some very weird things about Dany and Viserys' life. Like not one Targaryen loyalist helped them, not one. They were living on the streets, they were beggars at times. But no help came to them. The Martells made a marriage contract with Vis. Now Viserys was never told about it, the author confirmed that much, but why didn't Darry say something to him when he became sick and was dying? If they were living with the Sea Lord he booted them and the Martells never tried to help them. You don't have to try and do an uprising or anything but for crying out loud put them up someplace. Ned was offering to take care of Roberts bastards, like the Martells could not afford to put two little kids in a nice little house some where. With I don't know maybe an adult and a teacher of some sort. Of course as soon as Dany got power, dip shit shows up, "you are never going to believe this but your brother and my sister were suppose to get hitched, so why don't we get hitched. Sure it says nothing about us, but fuck it, I love you I really do total stranger. No? Ok well I'll just steal your dragons, that should work out well for me. Oh fuck I died."

I almost wonder if the marriage pact is nothing but a ploy by Doran.

He does admit that while Oberyn was the upfront dangerous one, he also makes sure to tell us that he was no else dangerous in his own way. By the time Dany gets the note, Oberyn and Darry are both dead, and correct me if I'm wrong didn't Arya earlier say that the Sealord was dying? So by the time Dany gets it, all 3 people who you're relying on to have vouched for it are dead. You could write whatever you want and there'd be no one to say it wasn't true

[XSarellaX]

The thing is, at the time the marriage pact was signed, i.e the only confirmed time that Dany could be in Braavos, Dany was max 4 years old. This is easy to determine

We therefore know that Viserys was not yet 13 at the time of the pact, otherwise he would have sailed for Sunspear as soon as he heard of it. That leaves him max 12 years old. Dany is at least 8 years younger than Viserys as she's born in 284 and he 276.

The thing is, assuming Dany is 4 years old does not logically work. We know that Oberyn tried to raise Dorne for Viserys within the first year of the sack, and that he rarely left after that didn't work, so that's the logical time that he arranged the marriage pact.

Which places Dany at 1. Dany would not have any memories from when she was 1, and even 4 is extremely pushing it if Oberyn went later.

So how you can say the house with the red door must have been the Sea Lord's Palace, when the only confirmed time she was there, is when she's somewhere between 1-4 and would not have any memories is beyond believable. There's clearly something up.

I think it's perfectly plausible that Viserys was older than 13. The thing is: he didn't just need to be old enough to consumate the marriage. As soon as Arriane was married to Viserys, it would be obvious Dorne would fight for a Targaryen restoration, and there would be a war. Viserys would become the figurehead, and he would need to be able to lead armies, negotiate with lords, bring people to his cause, etc. He could hardly do that at 13. Specially when he would be fighting against a charming and consagrated warrior like Robert Baratheon.

It's weird that Darry didn't tell Dany and V about the pact, but maybe he knew it well enough that if Viserys knew, he would show up penniless and helpless in Dorne, and just get everyone in trouble. So I believe it's possible Darry trusted Doran to keep tabs on the Targaryens and seek them out when them grew up and found an army, money, or something.

---

I agree it's weird that Dany has the memory of that lemmon tree, but that's not enough to claim Dany is an imposter. Viserys would know if his sister died and they replaced her with another baby, so that theory is flawed, unless you think Viserys is also an imposter. Then one would have to explain what they were doing with Darry, how they got Rhaella's crow, how fake Viserys has memories of his life prior to the Rebellion, etc.

And finding out Dany didn't grow up in Bravos, but, Pentos, Myr, or whatever, doesn't further the plot in anyway.

[Ser Creighton]

I agree that not everything makes sense about Dany's life, but I don't know if that's a hint of something mysterious or simply odd writing.But I absolutely believe that Martin simply thought that Braavos was further south than it was when he started writing, and had a lemon tree there. He seems to even make fun of it in Mercy, so it's hard for me to take any theory dependent on this lemon tree seriously.

Well there is a lot odd about Dany's early life and it doesn't make much sense but I suspect it will. He has left it a bit of a mystery. Griff knew about her and never lifted a finger. Though made the presumption that he and FAegon will go to her and she will super huggie embrace them. She might have, but instead went the wrong direction. Invaded Westeros, started attacking places and they will wait for Dany to arrive with her army and Dragons and then she will wed FAegon and give them Dragons and gold and an army. And the best part about his logic, is that she doesn't even know they exist and she is really busy and not even in Meereen.

"Now that we know how the "Meereenese knot" played out, what was the problem with this? For example, was it the order in which Dany met various characters, or who, when, and how someone would try to take the dragons?"

"Now I can explain things. It was a confluence of many, many factors: lets start with the offer from Xaro to give Dany ships, the refusal of which then leads to Qarth's declaration of war. Then there's the marriage of Daenerys to pacify the city. Then there's the arrival of the Yunkish army at the gates of Meereen, there's the order of arrival of various people going her way (Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, Aegon, Marwyn, etc.), and then there's Daario, this dangerous sellsword and the question of whether Dany really wants him or not, there's hte plague, there's Drogon's return to Meereen..."

"All of these things were balls I had thrown up into the air, and they're all linked and chronologically entwined. The return of Drogon to the city was something I explored as happening at different times. For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn's arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany's marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet."

There does seem to be a mystery here, you see Martin mentions everyone who is on the way. We all read dance and we know who is on the way. The interview took place after Dance. So who is this that Martin did not want to name?

"Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet." He doesn't name this person, and we have seen everyone who is coming. Are we getting a surprise guest? If so, who might that be? Because he is talking about something after Dance and after he named those people who were coming to Dany. I do love surprises.

Anyway, something tells me this person will be very important, though not mentioned by anyone.

[Ser Leftwich]

"Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet." He doesn't name this person, and we have seen everyone who is coming. Are we getting a surprise guest? If so, who might that be? Because he is talking about something after Dance and after he named those people who were coming to Dany. I do love surprises.

Anyway, something tells me this person will be very important, though not mentioned by anyone.

Totally Marwyn.