R+L=J v.121

[Giant of Tarth]

Could I just point something out, lemons aside. I do not wish to discuss JonCon' brutal murder and torture of 10 lemons.

But haven's you all noticed something about Dany?

Dany was born on Dragonstone. I don't doubt this for a second tons of witnesses. Then went to Braavos. I think she did, but it may not be the first place she went. Look what happens with her story and Dragonstone.

Dany while on the edge of the Red waste which is a Red desert. She hatches dragons from stone, loses her hair in the fire, crosses the red waste to get to Vaes Tolloro, and we have 3 small cities. What did Martin place there? A giant dragon skeleton, so big you could ride a horse through it. Meraxes died in Dorne and it was said he was so big he could swallow a horse. We have a cite with old scrolls and an uncut fire opal in a band with some old scrolls. A fire opal was used on a wedding gift for Joff it was used as the sigil of Dorne. Finally A bunch of iron spears with skulls on them. Did you know the Gold Company allied with houses in Dorne, like Yronwood. Dany of course stayed in a small city with fresh water and Gardens in the middle of a desert.

Now fast forward to the pits of Meereen. We have Red sand, then a dragon, Dany loses her hair again and it ends up on Dragonstone at least that is what she called it.

So first time in a rebirth You had dragon stones (petrified eggs) dragons, hair loss (sort of symbolic of children being born, not a lot of hair) and she entered the red waste.

So Dragon stone, dragons, red sand

Second time

Red sand, dragon, Dragonstone.

It's inverted and you can see Martin creating imagery and it all revolves around rebirth.

What can be interpreted is some heavy Dornish symbolism. Not to say it is right but it's the only other place with Red sand I can think of that would have any significance in the story. Not to mention the dragon and the horse thing, seemed pretty blatant.

Maybe some people are right, manybe she was in Dorne for a time, maybe they sent her to Braavos. Not sure but Dragonstone and Red sand seem to go hand in hand with her. Even Qarth which came after the Red Waste. A powerful port and trade city with one of the wonders of the world, though a slave city. Where Braavos is also a famed port and trade city with a wonder of the word though it of course is slave free. Of course she went from Braavos to the free cities and she went from Qarth to the slaver cities.

That's all I got, but it seems a cyclical pattern and it looks like it is related to her birth. You know what would be really perfect for an inverse between her and Jon. Is if her father was actually a Martell. The ruling house of the North and the ruling house of the south. Stark and Martell, and of course her mother would be a dragon and Jon' father would be a dragon. But that could never happen. Ever.

Alright I'm done with this. Just remember a winter son came to Jon about a marriage and a Summer Son came to Dany about a Marriage. One got married one didn't. One tried to steel 2 dragons that were locked away, got burned to death. Not like Jon has two possible Wights locked away that could freeze a person to death. I am sure Alys will be fine cause the dragons never dance. Sure an unnamed person may be coming to Dany, but it's not like an unnamed person may be coming to Jon in the future, with some information, about maybe his past. That could never happen either.

Sorry, i have 2am brain, could you explain Alys's danger? Did you mean the NW as the son of winter came to Jon?

[Mithras]

So we have Dany's UnLemons vs. Sansa's UnKiss?

[corbon]

Personally I have no particular opinion on why the lemon tree story doesn't quite add up with Dany. There's a mystery there, just I'm not sure what GRRM's getting at.

But yeah, my main point was simply to argue that Aegon's story is no less credible than Dany's. There's holes in the stories of both of our presented Targaryen's. If someone thinks Aegon is fake simply because of his backstory, then they should equally think Dany is also fake.

I happen to be in complete agreement that fAegon's (note I use the original meaning, fAegon vs FAegon) backstory is totally credible. Not confirmed enough to be undoubt-able, but totally credible.

There are a lot of arguments made here, by a lot of people, arguing against that backstory credibility but not one of them that I have ever seen has had the remotest smidgen of actual sense in it. Note that this is a different thing than arguing fAegon might be a fake and that other things than his actual backstory cast potential doubt as to his origins.

But the argument about the lemon tree casting doubt on Dany's backstory is even sillier than arguments about how Varys' story is impossible, or even implausible, due to his factor or that reason.

[Mithras]

fAegon's story might be credible but Varys is not, at least for me.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

First, why are we even discussing this in a RLJ thread?

So we have Dany's UnLemons vs. Sansa's UnKiss?

:lol:

fAegon's story might be credible but Varys is not, at least for me.

Varys' story is so absurd that I'm actually waiting that he's purposely telling a lie and he's keeping the "real one" for when the kid is presented to the High Lords.

Could I just point something out, lemons aside. I do not wish to discuss JonCon' brutal murder and torture of 10 lemons.

They had it coming.

[Mithras]

First, why are we even discussing this in a RLJ thread?

fAegon is like a mirror image of Jon. I don't remember the ramifications of his emergence and (likely) annihilation by Dany being discussed in RLJ threads but it will be a very important plot point.

About the lemons: Yeah, it needs to stop.

[Mithras]

Could I just point something out, lemons aside. I do not wish to discuss JonCon' brutal murder and torture of 10 lemons.

“I understand hate well enough.” From the way Griff said the word, Tyrion knew that much was true.

[addicted to snow]

Martin didnot say that the Wall blocks warging. He just said that why Jon didnot feel Ghost during a certain period of time will be important. As we see from other cases with Varamyr, BR and Bran, the Wall does not have any effect on skinchanging.

I disagree, but this is not a good place for discussing it...

[addicted to snow]

Here's a photo of a greenhouse in Venice to go with the lemon tree in Norway.

I think there's a lot of people who find the lemon tree argument rather weak who would nonetheless not find it hard to believe that there's something fishy going on with Dany's house with the red door memories, if only for the fact that GRRM keeps repeating them. To my mind, the oddest thing about them is her memory of the servants kicking them out of the house when Darry died. Generally the servants don't get to just take over a large house when the master dies. When we couple this with the knowledge Dany didn't have of the marriage arrangement between Darry and the Martells, witnessed by the Sea Lord of Braavos, it becomes even odder that nobody would be paying any attention.

I think it's rather more likely that we'll discover that Darry, Dany and Viserys were the guests of the Sea Lord in Braavos and after Darry died they were kicked out due to some political shift rather than the servants getting their way, than that they were actually living in Dorne and the Lord of Braavos came to visit. Remember that trees do grow in Braavos in the "courts and gardens of the mighty", a later clarification from AFFC.

There is the intriguing line in the Mercy sample chapter about how only a fool would make the mistake of not noticing how far north Braavos is and thinking it would be full of lemon trees. This could easily be one of GRRM's jokes about his own continuity errors in earlier books. He's done it before.

This is an interesting possibility...

[markg171]

First, why are we even discussing this in a RLJ thread?

:lol:

Varys' story is so absurd that I'm actually waiting that he's purposely telling a lie and he's keeping the "real one" for when the kid is presented to the High Lords.

They had it coming.

I thought we were discussing it because some were arguing that it was Aegon and not Jon at the TOJ. Thus we were questioning the reliability of Vary story and how it might match up to there being KG at the TOJ.

Secondly if Aegon at the TOJ, but he's still real, then it throws all the assumptions about Jon being a king out the window as Aegon is the elder brother.

So I would say that discussing whether or not Aegon is real matters a great deal to R+L=J

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Secondly if Aegon at the TOJ, but he's still real, then it throws all the assumptions about Jon being a king out the window as Aegon is the elder brother.

Until the day Aegon dies?

And that's why nobody would ever accept King Renly or King Baelon or King Robb.

Ah, and Jon is King in the North/Winter King by Robb's will... long live the king!

...and I saw some arguments that, Mance subdued, Jon would be King beyond the Wall (distalthought I could not quite follow, but that does not mean it must be plain wrong).

[The guy from the Vale]

I thought we were discussing it because some were arguing that it was Aegon and not Jon at the TOJ. Thus we were questioning the reliability of Vary story and how it might match up to there being KG at the TOJ.

Secondly if Aegon at the TOJ, but he's still real, then it throws all the assumptions about Jon being a king out the window as Aegon is the elder brother.

So I would say that discussing whether or not Aegon is real matters a great deal to R+L=J

If Aegon had been at the ToJ, Ned wouldn't think of him as dead.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

If Aegon had been at the ToJ, Ned wouldn't think of him as dead.

And if the argument is that Aegon had been there but was sent away by the time Ned gets there, that still doesn't address the fact that all three Kingsguard are waiting at the Tower of Joy instead of splitting up, leaving Aegon completely unguarded by Kingsguard.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

First, why are we even discussing this in a RLJ thread?

Why are we discussing what? Lemons? Dany? Vaes Tolorro? Young Griff? All of the above?

I thought we were discussing it because some were arguing that it was Aegon and not Jon at the TOJ. Thus we were questioning the reliability of Vary story and how it might match up to there being KG at the TOJ.

Secondly if Aegon at the TOJ, but he's still real, then it throws all the assumptions about Jon being a king out the window as Aegon is the elder brother.

So I would say that discussing whether or not Aegon is real matters a great deal to R+L=J

Agreed, in general. The survival of young Aegon would impact what we think we know about Jon's story significantly. If young Aegon was rescued from King's Landing and moved to safety, then the presence of the three KG in the Prince's Pass would be much more satisfactorily explained by the need to protect him (Rhaegar's heir and the Prince that was Promised), than it would be by anything having to do with Lyanna or Jon Snow.

And if the argument is that Aegon had been there but was sent away by the time Ned gets there, that still doesn't address the fact that all three Kingsguard are waiting at the Tower of Joy instead of splitting up, leaving Aegon completely unguarded by Kingsguard.

If the best way to protect Aegon at that point in time was to ensure that his survival remained a secret... then the most effective way for the KG to protect that secret would be to act as if there were no Aegon at all. And the worst possible decision they could have made would have been for one of them to "flee" the confrontation with Ned. The Kingsguard does not flee, you see? Therefore Ned and his companions would have been very curious to find out what purpose that last KG was riding off to serve...

[BearQueen87]

If Aegon had been at the ToJ, Ned wouldn't think of him as dead.

And I feel like this really ends that whole debate.

[sj4iy]

The reason I don't believe Aegon's story...we'd have to believe:

1. That Elia agreed to save one of her children and not the other when both could have been saved.

-or-

2. That Elia didn't recognize her own son.

Neither makes sense.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The reason I don't believe Aegon's story...we'd have to believe:

1. That Elia agreed to save one of her children and not the other when both could have been saved.

-or-

2. That Elia didn't recognize her own son.

Neither makes sense.

Maybe those are not the only alternatives available to Martin. Perhaps Elia was not given a choice. Or perhaps, for whatever reason, it was not the case that both could have been saved. The fact is that Martin has written a story in which the claim has been made that one child (of two) survived - and there is no clear evidence available at this point that allows us to dismiss that claim. There is certainly ambiguity and room for doubt. Individually, we may decide to believe or not to believe the claim - and we may envision different outcomes to the story. But uncertainty and ambiguity are integral to Martin's work, and at this point it seems quite unlikely that he's made the kind of blatant story-telling error that would justify our writing-off Young Griff as an "obvious" imposter. To the contrary, in fact... I think the appearance of (f)Aegon is intended to make us question established interpretations of the story. Including, among other things, just what exactly Sers Hightower, Whent, and Dayne were doing in the Prince's Pass when Ned Stark came riding by at the end of Robert's Rebellion.

[BearQueen87]

Maybe those are not the only alternatives available to Martin. Perhaps Elia was not given a choice. Or perhaps, for whatever reason, it was not the case that both could have been saved. The fact is that Martin has written a story in which the claim has been made that one child (of two) survived - and there is no clear evidence available at this point that allows us to dismiss that claim. There is certainly ambiguity and room for doubt. Individually, we may decide to believe or not to believe the claim - and we may envision different outcomes to the story. But uncertainty and ambiguity are integral to Martin's work, and at this point it seems quite unlikely that he's made the kind of blatant story-telling error that would justify our writing-off Young Griff as an "obvious" imposter. To the contrary, in fact... I think the appearance of (f)Aegon is intended to make us question established interpretations of the story. Including, among other things, just what exactly Sers Hightower, Whent, and Dayne were doing in the Prince's Pass when Ned Stark came riding by at the end of Robert's Rebellion.

Quite unsurprisingly, I disagree. I don't think fAegon's appearance in intended to make us question what was going on at the TOJ because Aegon (the real babe) has never been connected to the TOJ in any way shape or form. Like theguyfromtheVale said above, Ned, one of the last survivors of the TOJ battle (apart from Mr. Reed who is hanging out in his floating castle) never thinks about Aegon as anything but dead. And we know that Ned, in his own internal and private thoughts, tends to focus on things he can't talk about out loud, like Lyanna and the promises and his own thoughts on Rhaegar and how Ned really views Jon.

The appearance of fAegon might make us question what was happening in King's Landing and what is going on with Varys and Illyrio, but not the TOJ. They are two separate storylines. And that's when you have to focus on Varys as a character, his connection to Illyrio, textual hints (like a sudden Targ-Blackfyre history lesson) and even the literary trope of the hidden prince.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Quite unsurprisingly, I disagree...

... :cool4: ... :cheers:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I don't think fAegon's appearance in intended to make us question what was going on at the TOJ because Aegon (the real babe) has never been connected to the TOJ in any way shape or form...

There's one other thing I'll mention that hasn't come up yet in this discussion... and that is the Lemore=Ashara theory. It's only a theory, of course. But if Ashara Dayne faked her suicidal leap from the Pale Stone Tower in order to help raise and protect Rhaegar's son Aegon, then it would certainly be worth considering how and when the boy was given into her care. One strong possibility would be that he was carried south from King's Landing to Starfall, where the two of them took ship and left Westeros. Along the way, of course... he would have passed by the tower of joy. (And any KG that assisted with that rescue would also have traversed the Prince's Pass... either coming or going.)

I know. Lots of ifs. Wheels within wheels. "If" in one hand, piss in the other, etc. But that's what we're all doing here, right? And if this is how Aegon's story is eventually revealed to have played out, then you can color me unsurprised. :)