R+L=J v.121

[Ser Creighton]

I almost wonder if the marriage pact is nothing but a ploy by Doran.

He does admit that while Oberyn was the upfront dangerous one, he also makes sure to tell us that he was no else dangerous in his own way. By the time Dany gets the note, Oberyn and Darry are both dead, and correct me if I'm wrong didn't Arya earlier say that the Sealord was dying? So by the time Dany gets it, all 3 people who you're relying on to have vouched for it are dead. You could write whatever you want and there'd be no one to say it wasn't true

"Were Varys and Illyrio aware of the betrothal contract that Prince Doran and Ser Willem Darry had made? And why didn't Darry or someone tell Viserys about this agreement before his death?"

"To the first question: no. As to the second, Viserys was an immature child when it was decided, and he wasn't ready for the information."

He is using the pact as a ploy with Dany, but the pact was in fact real. Martin tells us why Varys wasn't told about it. For me it's just odd that he did nothing to help them but then like an idiot sends his son over there with a contract that means nothing to Dany. When he found a use for her it was all lets be allies, before that he could of given a fuck. I don't know what to make of it. But I must suggest this is not really the place to talk about that. It's not really tied to R+L=J and I don't want to piss off the Mods. Because they do like us to stay on topic and they have mentioned that on this thread.

[Ser Creighton]

Totally Marwyn.

Nope he named Marwyn and we know he is coming already in the first paragraph. This is someone he chose not to name. I don't think it is Marwyn, Marwyn is clearly one of the balls he said he had too toss in the air, and decide the timeline of this list of people coming to Dany. But then he goes and brings up this unknown. Vic has not arrived yet either, technically. But he is not talking about him either, he is listed right next to Marwyn, it seems like someone new. Quaithe, or perhaps a Dayne. Perhaps a lady Ashara, but I suspect it will be connected to Jon in some way, someone really unexpected or it's Marwyn. I prefer to speculate as it will be a long time before the next book, so I have plenty of time to change my mind.

You know how I feel about Parallels, and I think an unknown will show up for both Jon and Dany. Though Jon will get 3 people and Dany one and it will happen while Jon is not with himself so to speak and Dany is away on Drogon. In fact I will go out on a limb and say it is a Dayne, Ashara Dayne. That should get the old Cracky juices flowing.

[Ser Leftwich]

Nope he named Marwyn and we know he is coming already in the first paragraph. This is someone he chose not to name. I don't think it is Marwyn, Marwyn is clearly one of the balls he said he had too toss in the air, and decide the timeline of this list of people coming to Dany. But then he goes and brings up this unknown. Vic has not arrived yet either, technically. But he is not talking about him either, he is listed right next to Marwyn, it seems like someone new. Quaithe, or perhaps a Dayne. Perhaps a lady Ashara, but I suspect it will be connected to Jon in some way, someone really unexpected or it's Marwyn. I prefer to speculate as it will be a long time before the next book, so I have plenty of time to change my mind.

You know how I feel about Parallels, and I think an unknown will show up for both Jon and Dany. Though Jon will get 3 people and Dany one and it will happen while Jon is not with himself so to speak and Dany is away on Drogon. In fact I will go out on a limb and say it is a Dayne, Ashara Dayne. That should get the old Cracky juices flowing.

Perhaps he was talking about Jorah Mormont. Jorah going back to Dany seemed inevitable, but it was likely very open-ended as to how it would actually happen, from GRRM's pov. He could have written Jorah into a number of the story lines of the characters converging on Meereen.

ETA: Though Jorah is not an 'unknown.'

[Kingmonkey]

"Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet." He doesn't name this person, and we have seen everyone who is coming. Are we getting a surprise guest? If so, who might that be? Because he is talking about something after Dance and after he named those people who were coming to Dany. I do love surprises.

Khal Jhaqo?

[BearQueen87]

I'm taking a stand against lemons.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You're my hero

[BearQueen87]

Perhaps he was talking about Jorah Mormont. Jorah going back to Dany seemed inevitable, but it was likely very open-ended as to how it would actually happen, from GRRM's pov. He could have written Jorah into a number of the story lines of the characters converging on Meereen.

ETA: Though Jorah is not an 'unknown.'

*sad whimpering*

[BearQueen87]

Just a general observation after scanning the past few pages I missed...

Yes, there are defiantly oddities in Dany's life, but the lemon tree is not one of them, IMO. The lemon tree is much more of a symbol and has symbolic importance to Dany than it being some sort of giant clue. It's her idea of home, with its connotations of sweet and sour and bitter and poignant all wrapped into one. It's also not something she thinks about a lot, at least not in relation to the red door, which is far more weighty in her concept of home.

Also, don't know who said it, but I agree that there was likely some sort of regime change in Braavos and that we get a hint of that from Syrio in AGOT when he speaks to Arya.

[Kingmonkey]

Still arguments about lemon trees?

Look, it's all very simple. We all hear that lemons grow in Dorne. We've heard it said so often that by the laws of GRRMisms it must be a clue to something missing. That's how GRRM works. Well you know what else is mentioned frequently as growing in Dorne? Fire peppers. FIRE. Not just regular peppers, but fire ones. Like Targaryens and dragons. Well, it's a Song of Ice and Fire, so what does ice get? Something that's a direct opposite of a fire pepper? Well here's a clue. You're cutting chili, you get chili burns, you know what you use to stop the burn? Lemon juice. Lemon juice cancels chili juice out. So lemons are the opposition to chili peppers, just as ice is the opposition to fire. Frankly it's obvious, and the whole Braavos thing just foreshadows it.

ICE LEMONS.

Fire peppers grow in the far south, ice lemons grow in the far north. Just like ice dragons. If they grow beyond the wall, they'll certainly flourish in Braavos, much further south.

What Dany saw were Ice Lemons from beyond the wall, a rare delicacy sent to the Sea Lord of Braavos by Bloodraven. Why Bloodraven, you ask? What reason would he have to send a gift to the Sea Lord of Braavos? Well obviously he'd want to have a way of keeping tabs on the last of the Targaryens, right? There are no weirwoods in Braavos. We keep being told about no trees in Braavos, and what's the most important kind of tree in the book? It's obvious that this is the point GRRM is making with that. Without actually saying it, he's telling us there are no weirwoods in Braavos. Ah, but that doesn't mean there's no weirwood in Braavos. The House of Black and White uses weirwood for the white door. What other door is mentioned as being in Braavos? A red door. Red and white, those colours sounding familiar to anyone? DO YOU BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND?

Weirwood, even in wood form, seems to be associated with revelation. There's the doors to the HoB&W, there's Ned's bed where Theon has his dream, and wasn't there a weirwood door at the HoTU too? But magic over long distances is tricky. Bloodraven would need to have something familiar to him to be able to use magic on it at range, we know that familiarity with the subject makes the magic easier. So Bloodraven sent some ice lemons as a gift to the Sea Lord of Braavos, but really as a magical focus he could use to keep an eye on Dany and Viserys.

BLOODRAVEN WAS WARGING THE LEMON TREE.

I hope this resolves everything.

[BearQueen87]

Still arguments about lemon trees?

Look, it's all very simple. We all hear that lemons grow in Dorne. We've heard it said so often that by the laws of GRRMisms it must be a clue to something missing. That's how GRRM works. Well you know what else is mentioned frequently as growing in Dorne? Fire peppers. FIRE. Not just regular peppers, but fire ones. Like Targaryens and dragons. Well, it's a Song of Ice and Fire, so what does ice get? Something that's a direct opposite of a fire pepper? Well here's a clue. You're cutting chili, you get chili burns, you know what you use to stop the burn? Lemon juice. Lemon juice cancels chili juice out. So lemons are the opposition to chili peppers, just as ice is the opposition to fire. Frankly it's obvious, and the whole Braavos thing just foreshadows it.

ICE LEMONS.

Fire peppers grow in the far south, ice lemons grow in the far north. Just like ice dragons. If they grow beyond the wall, they'll certainly flourish in Braavos, much further south.

What Dany saw were Ice Lemons from beyond the wall, a rare delicacy sent to the Sea Lord of Braavos by Bloodraven. Why Bloodraven, you ask? What reason would he have to send a gift to the Sea Lord of Braavos? Well obviously he'd want to have a way of keeping tabs on the last of the Targaryens, right? There are no weirwoods in Braavos. We keep being told about no trees in Braavos, and what's the most important kind of tree in the book? It's obvious that this is the point GRRM is making with that. Without actually saying it, he's telling us there are no weirwoods in Braavos. Ah, but that doesn't mean there's no weirwood in Braavos. The House of Black and White uses weirwood for the white door. What other door is mentioned as being in Braavos? A red door. Red and white, those colours sounding familiar to anyone? DO YOU BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND?

Weirwood, even in wood form, seems to be associated with revelation. There's the doors to the HoB&W, there's Ned's bed where Theon has his dream, and wasn't there a weirwood door at the HoTU too? But magic over long distances is tricky. Bloodraven would need to have something familiar to him to be able to use magic on it at range, we know that familiarity with the subject makes the magic easier. So Bloodraven sent some ice lemons as a gift to the Sea Lord of Braavos, but really as a magical focus he could use to keep an eye on Dany and Viserys.

BLOODRAVEN WAS WARGING THE LEMON TREE.

I hope this resolves everything.

Omg. You solved ALL THE THINGS!

Bloodraven is warging Ghost, the Raven, the Lemon Tree, probably Drogon and Dany's silver mare!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Today I was squeezing lemons to macerate our Christmas meal... we got 10 lemons we cut in half and squeeze. I couldn't do it without laughing all the way. My family was like "wtf is wrong with you???".

I blame you all because my family now believes I'm insane.

[Kingmonkey]

Bloodraven is warging Ghost, the Raven, the Lemon Tree, probably Drogon and Dany's silver mare!

No. Drogon IS the silver mare. Drogon from the future, under a glamour.

[The Wolves]

Today I was squeezing lemons to macerate our Christmas meal... we got 10 lemons we cut in half and squeeze. I couldn't do it without laughing all the way. My family was like "wtf is wrong with you???".

I blame you all because my family now believes I'm insane.

Lol!!

[sj4iy]

Today I was squeezing lemons to macerate our Christmas meal... we got 10 lemons we cut in half and squeeze. I couldn't do it without laughing all the way. My family was like "wtf is wrong with you???".

I blame you all because my family now believes I'm insane.

Bloodraven was screaming in agony. I hope you're proud of yourself ;)

[The Twinslayer]

Interesting!

You read it much differently than I do, in that case. I immediately thought he married both his sisters and probably at the same time.

I'm surprised that you got polygamy out of that quote. I think you got there before GRRM did.

There is no explicit mention of polygamy anywhere in AGOT. Even when we learn that Aerys followed the family tradition by marrying his sister, he only had one wife, the logical inference (and, I think, what GRRM meant there) is that Aegon married his first sister and then, when she died, he married the second one.

But either way, I think my point still stands: the possibility that Aegon survived the Sack is heavily foreshadowed but any hint about polygamy is at best just a vague and stray whisper in a quote that is really all about incest.

[sj4iy]

"Aegon's body with ruined head" = heavy foreshadowing that he's alive because Varys said so

"Aegon and his sister wives (which is a historical fact)" = vague and stray whisper that has no relevance to the plot

Makes sense.

[Ser Creighton]

Could I just point something out, lemons aside. I do not wish to discuss JonCon' brutal murder and torture of 10 lemons.

But haven's you all noticed something about Dany?

Dany was born on Dragonstone. I don't doubt this for a second tons of witnesses. Then went to Braavos. I think she did, but it may not be the first place she went. Look what happens with her story and Dragonstone.

Dany while on the edge of the Red waste which is a Red desert. She hatches dragons from stone, loses her hair in the fire, crosses the red waste to get to Vaes Tolloro, and we have 3 small cities. What did Martin place there? A giant dragon skeleton, so big you could ride a horse through it. Meraxes died in Dorne and it was said he was so big he could swallow a horse. We have a cite with old scrolls and an uncut fire opal in a band with some old scrolls. A fire opal was used on a wedding gift for Joff it was used as the sigil of Dorne. Finally A bunch of iron spears with skulls on them. Did you know the Gold Company allied with houses in Dorne, like Yronwood. Dany of course stayed in a small city with fresh water and Gardens in the middle of a desert.

Now fast forward to the pits of Meereen. We have Red sand, then a dragon, Dany loses her hair again and it ends up on Dragonstone at least that is what she called it.

So first time in a rebirth You had dragon stones (petrified eggs) dragons, hair loss (sort of symbolic of children being born, not a lot of hair) and she entered the red waste.

So Dragon stone, dragons, red sand

Second time

Red sand, dragon, Dragonstone.

It's inverted and you can see Martin creating imagery and it all revolves around rebirth.

What can be interpreted is some heavy Dornish symbolism. Not to say it is right but it's the only other place with Red sand I can think of that would have any significance in the story. Not to mention the dragon and the horse thing, seemed pretty blatant.

Maybe some people are right, manybe she was in Dorne for a time, maybe they sent her to Braavos. Not sure but Dragonstone and Red sand seem to go hand in hand with her. Even Qarth which came after the Red Waste. A powerful port and trade city with one of the wonders of the world, though a slave city. Where Braavos is also a famed port and trade city with a wonder of the word though it of course is slave free. Of course she went from Braavos to the free cities and she went from Qarth to the slaver cities.

That's all I got, but it seems a cyclical pattern and it looks like it is related to her birth. You know what would be really perfect for an inverse between her and Jon. Is if her father was actually a Martell. The ruling house of the North and the ruling house of the south. Stark and Martell, and of course her mother would be a dragon and Jon' father would be a dragon. But that could never happen. Ever.

Alright I'm done with this. Just remember a winter son came to Jon about a marriage and a Summer Son came to Dany about a Marriage. One got married one didn't. One tried to steel 2 dragons that were locked away, got burned to death. Not like Jon has two possible Wights locked away that could freeze a person to death. I am sure Alys will be fine cause the dragons never dance. Sure an unnamed person may be coming to Dany, but it's not like an unnamed person may be coming to Jon in the future, with some information, about maybe his past. That could never happen either.

[The Twinslayer]

I can't provide a quote that says that they only grow in Dorne, but every quote we have names Dorne as the place to get them, not Braavos.

The innkeeper finds it hilarious that they think there could be lemons growing in the riverlands, and the riverlands are further south than Braavos, so Braavos definitely can't grow them.

There's also the fact that citrus trees are stated to NOT grow in Braavos

So yeah, if anybody's background story doesn't quite add up, it's Dany's over Aegon's. I'm not saying I personally agree with this, but she's the one who's been with us all along and she's the one who's story doesn't add up so if you're looking for the hidden pretender, it should her not Aegon. Just because she has dragons doesn't mean she can't be a Blackfyre. Blackfyre's are Targaryen's after all. She still does have the blood of the dragons whether she's Blackfyre or Targaryen.

I am with you on Aegon's back story. It is very plausible. From an in-universe perspective, the idea that Aegon survived and was spirited away is at least as plausible, if not more plausible, than the idea that Bran survived. And of course, Bran's survival is itself foreshadowing that Aegon survived.

I am confused by the lemon tree issue (although I don't understand why anyone would want to be rude to you about it). Is the point just that Aegon's back story is no less credible than Dany's? Or are you taking it further and suggesting that Dany is not Rhaegar's and Viserys' sister? If it is the former, I get it. If it is the latter, I really don't get it -- wouldn't Viserys know if Dany was actually his sister?

[The Twinslayer]

"Aegon's body with ruined head" = heavy foreshadowing that he's alive because Varys said so

"Aegon and his sister wives (which is a historical fact)" = vague and stray whisper that has no relevance to the plot

Makes sense.

I think you missed the point. Go back to the time before ADWD was published. There is all kinds off forshadowing that Aegon will reappear before Varys' speech in ADWD (although of course the return of Aegon is the subject of the discussion between Varys and Illyrio that Arya overhears in AGOT).

Regarding polygamy, Aegon and is "sister-wives" are never mentioned in AGOT (nor are they mentioned in ACOK, ASOS, AFFC, or ADWD). Tyrion mentions "Aegon Targaryen and his sisters" but we never get "sister wives."

In AGOT, we are told he married his two sisters, but we are not told that he was married to both at the same time. In ACOK, Jorah makes an ambiguous statement that can be read to suggest that he was married to both simultaneously. Other than that, to the best of my recollection, you have to wait for the world book to get in-story confirmation that any Targaryen ever practiced bigamy or polygamy.

[markg171]

I am with you on Aegon's back story. It is very plausible. From an in-universe perspective, the idea that Aegon survived and was spirited away is at least as plausible, if not more plausible, than the idea that Bran survived. And of course, Bran's survival is itself foreshadowing that Aegon survived.

I am confused by the lemon tree issue (although I don't understand why anyone would want to be rude to you about it). Is the point just that Aegon's back story is no less credible than Dany's? Or are you taking it further and suggesting that Dany is not Rhaegar's and Viserys' sister? If it is the former, I get it. If it is the latter, I really don't get it -- wouldn't Viserys know if Dany was actually his sister?

Personally I have no particular opinion on why the lemon tree story doesn't quite add up with Dany. There's a mystery there, just I'm not sure what GRRM's getting at.

But yeah, my main point was simply to argue that Aegon's story is no less credible than Dany's. There's holes in the stories of both of our presented Targaryen's. If someone thinks Aegon is fake simply because of his backstory, then they should equally think Dany is also fake.

[Giant of Tarth]

Ser Creighton

Very nice. You mention dragon bones twice, are you saying there will be a dragon down in the upcoming battle?