R+L=J v.121

[JonSnow4President]

Just how cold is Braavos? It's on the Ocean, so I can't imagine it being that cold. When it gets to about 50 here, people start complaining about how it's freezing, and that still has a good 25-30 before a lemon tree is remotely threatened. I don't recall any mention of frost, ice, or snow despite the fact we're already in late autumn/early winter.

Edit: In the summers, I don't think it's an issue. It's important to remember that, if the lemon tree is at the sealord's palace, agriculture and the ability to consistently produce crops isn't an issue. It comes down to what kills the tree, which (according to an article written by a professor at my alma mater, which has Agricultural in the name), is sustained temperatures in the upper 20s. If it's occassionally cold, wrapping a (rare and expensive) tree/status symbol in what are essentially blankets, then having a fire nearby would easily keep it alive through any winter I can imagine would happen in a coastal city at roughly the same latitude as the Vale.

[sj4iy]

Except Dany says that the tree was outside. That means that they weren't controlling the weather like you can inside or in a greenhouse

There are ways, was my point. I'm sure the sea lord of Braavos could afford to keep a lemon tree and have people who knew how to care for it.

[Kingmonkey]

Here's a picture of a lemon tree growing out of doors.

http://gardkarlsen.com/stavanger/lemon_at_Flor_Fjare.jpg

It's in Norway.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dunno you guys, but I'm starting to develop a hate for lemon trees...

I wonder how... I wonder why...

[Ygrain]

Except Dany says that the tree was outside. That means that they weren't controlling the weather like you can inside or in a greenhouse

/sigh/

Yet another topic you need to educate yourself on. Outside conditions can be controlled. It's called arranging a microclimate. A southern wall exposed to the sun, on a higher ground, can do wonderful tricks.

[markg171]

/sigh/

Yet another topic you need to educate yourself on. Outside conditions can be controlled. It's called arranging a microclimate. A southern wall exposed to the sun, on a higher ground, can do wonderful tricks.

Except Braavos does not get sunny days. It's climate is cloudy and misty.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Except Braavos does not get sunny days. It's climate is cloudy and misty.

Those two are not exclusive to each other. Plants grow in cloudy misty climates. You talk like Braavos is in complete darkness all the time. And sunny days is not the same as having sun. If Braavos does not get sunny days, then NOTHING could grow there.

[addicted to snow]

If you think the "Prince's pass" name is meaningful, how about the fact that the ToJ is half way between the evocatively named "Nightsong" and "Kings Grave"?

I don't think that these names surrounding the TOJ on a map are an accident... I think this is exactly how GRRM works... He can't help himself...

[addicted to snow]

/sigh/

Yet another topic you need to educate yourself on. Outside conditions can be controlled. It's called arranging a microclimate. A southern wall exposed to the sun, on a higher ground, can do wonderful tricks.

I always lean in favor of more intrigue as opposed to less & I don't think that GRRM mentioned the absence of lemon trees by mistake. However, I am not really invested in this argument either way.

Two quick questions though:

• is there a lot of 'higher ground' to be utilized in such a way in Bravos?

Do you think GRRM was thinking about microclimates when writing Dany's story?

[markg171]

Those two are not exclusive to each other. Plants grow in cloudy misty climates. You talk like Braavos is in complete darkness all the time. And sunny days is not the same as having sun. If Braavos does not get sunny days, then NOTHING could grow there.

Well when the only place we are told that lemon trees grow in is Dorne, a place of constant sun and heat, which is the complete opposite type of climate and hemisphere as Braavos, yes you should start wondering.

Dany's background makes far less sense than Aegon's does. Believing Aegon is who he is presented as requires only for you to accept that Varys smuggled the child out of KL, while he was virtually unguarded due to the fact that the only KG present, was specifically ordered by Aerys, the king, to guard himself and not the royal family. Believing Dany is exactly who she is presented as, requires you to accept that a plant grew in the climate that is completely unsuited to its nature, and the exact opposite of what we are presented as the only option where it can grow.

If anyone is the secret Blackfyre based on their background not adding up, it's Dany, not Aegon.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

This is the point I was making, except the speculation that Aegon was alive started before ACOK. The clues are all there in AGOT.

Unlike certain other theories (e.g., Targaryen polygamy, which is never mentioned in AGOT).

I am still catching up and haven't read all of tonight's posts. Still I wanted to thank you for the elaborate reply on Aegon's survival being forshadowed in AGoT which I hope to find time to get back to later.

Here, on the point of Targ polygamy there is:

For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride.

AGoT 3 Daenerys I

So incest is already mentioned as a Targ habit and polygamy is mentioned in the one single instance with Aegon I.

On the Aegon (possible VI) survival forshadowing I was struck by your aforementioned post by the coined wording "red ruin".

This "red ruin" is important as it will get repeated once in every book safe the last, ADwD, where we get "red ruin" served twice. It evoces "RedruM" from Shining or it might just adversely rhyme

"red ruin" on

"red 'errin'" - red herring. Whatever it is, there's probably more to it yet to be dug up.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And Dany doesn't add up because her back story doesn't. Lemons don't grow in Braavos yet as far as she knows she grew up there. So there's way more wrong with her story than Aegon's. Aegon you might get the feeling it's too perfect, but Dany's is just plain wrong.

Didn't GRRM once state that he had believed Braavos to have been quite a bit more to the south originally, before maps were drawn? I seem to recall something of Braavos originally having been at the height of KL, not the Fingers.

In any case, the Sealord of Braavos, who has been associated with Dany, has the place and opportunity to grow a lemon tree. He is rich, and a lemon tree is exotic. It wouldn't be a strange thing for this rich guy to want a lemon tree, to show of wealth. Look at real life history.

Dany associates the red door and the lemon tree with innocence, with a happy life without worries. She constantly wants to go back to that. When at the house with the red door and the lemon tree, she was safe, not part of wars, no part of any plots, or so she has always believed. Yet when Quentyn presents his letter, signed by the Sealord, he breaks even that illusion, without knowing. That's why Dany "felt strange" when reading the letter.

Braavos can grow trees... We see the city surrounded by trees. The fact that no trees can be seen on the streets of Braavos, is because the city is all stone - men placed stones there, leaving no place for trees to grow.

Checking out the official maps, we see some green on the smaller islands (including the island locating the Palace of the Sealord). There, plants and trees should be able to grow.

[Ygrain]

I am still catching up and haven't read all of tonight's posts. Still I wanted to thank you for the elaborate reply on Aegon's survival being forshadowed in AGoT which I hope to find time to get back to later.

Here, on the point of Targ polygamy there is:

AGoT 3 Daenerys I

So incest is already mentioned as a Targ habit and polygamy is mentioned in the one single instance with Aegon I.

On the Aegon (possible VI) survival forshadowing I was struck by your aforementioned post by the coined wording "red ruin".

This "red ruin" is important as it will get repeated once in every book safe the last, ADwD, where we get "red ruin" served twice. It evoces "RedruM" from Shining or it might just adversely rhyme

"red ruin" on

"red 'errin'" - red herring. Whatever it is, there's probably more to it yet to be dug up.

Actually, the statement that Aegon is foreshadowed as alive is blatantly incorrect. What is foreshadowed is that the murdered baby couldn't be identified for certain, which ties in with the visions of an impostor.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Actually, the statement that Aegon is foreshadowed as alive is blatantly incorrect.

:agree:

What is foreshadowed is that the murdered baby couldn't be identified for certain, which ties in with the visions of an impostor.

Which is grieving us here...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Actually, the statement that Aegon is foreshadowed as alive is blatantly incorrect. What is foreshadowed is that the murdered baby couldn't be identified for certain, which ties in with the visions of an impostor.

I agree that the inability of identification isn't hinting towards definite survival.. but it doesn't have to mean 'imposter'. All it does, is leaving the possibility open, from the beginning, for Aegon to show up at some point.. be it really him, or not.

The beauty about the rAegon/fAegon issue is, that practically every single hint associated with the issue, can be explained in two ways, that each favor one side of the issue.

[Ygrain]

Which is grieving us here...

??? - That is, except the obvious dead baby issue.

I agree that the inability of identification isn't hinting towards definite survival.. but it doesn't have to mean 'imposter'. All it does, is leaving the possibility open, from the beginning, for Aegon to show up at some point.. be it really him, or not.

The beauty about the rAegon/fAegon issue is, that practically every single hint associated with the issue, can be explained in two ways, that each favor one side of the issue.

I didn't say that the dubious identity necessarily hints towards an impostor, but that it ties in with other hints at an impostor as it is the only Targ that can be considered as unaccounted for.

[corbon]

Believing Dany is exactly who she is presented as, requires you to accept that a plant grew in the climate that is completely unsuited to its nature, and the exact opposite of what we are presented as the only option where it can grow.

Lemon trees grow all over the place. In Norway, as supposedly demonstrated in post #143, in Christchurch, NZ, where my Indonesian wife was astonished at the bountiful harvest of my Nana's outdoor lemon tree (indonesian lemons tend to be much smaller and less juicy than the ones my Nana's tree provided in copious amounts for such a small tree) and many other places. They do not require a particularly hot or arid climate, though they do like the sun.

The wiki (yes, I know) says that lemons come chiefly (not exclusively) from Dorne. I don't imagine thats a terrible corruption of the text its based on.

Please provide a quote that says lemon trees grow only in Dorne and nowhere else in the world. And even then, that will only prove that such trees grow there naturally as a commercial source of fruit, not that individual trees cannot be found elsewhere.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

??? - That is, except the obvious dead baby issue.

Working through the discussions of rAegon/fAegon is grievous, or at least those are my feelings toward it.

[Mithras]

I don't rule out the possibility that Ned planted a lemon tree in the glass gardens for Sansa. After all, he built a sept for Cat.

[addicted to snow]

I don't rule out the possibility that Ned planted a lemon tree in the glass gardens for Sansa. After all, he built a sept for Cat.

That's a pretty safe bet...

But are you suggesting that Dany's bedroom window opened up into a greenhouse? If so, it would be equivalent to a greenhouse in Venice, which given the value of the local real estate, would probably not be very realistic.

--

Why do readers have such a hard time accepting that GRRM's story has yet another layer of depth/intrigue??? There are probably 4 to 5 books yet to come, the picture we have today of Martin's World barely scratches the surface...