The root causes of Stannis love

[The Dragons Hand]

I like Stannis, but some of his fans make me wish I didn't.

As for Stannis' claim, I still view it as inferior to the Targaryen line, simply because Robert was placed on the throne because he had the most Targ blood. So it remains that

Aegon Brightfyre > (T)Aegon > AeJon StarKaryen > Daenerys > Stannis

The issue being the Brightfyre claim is so long unclaimed it's almost irrelevant, Aegon like isn't true, I don't figure Jon wants the IT and Aegon Blackfyre is just a fresh conqueror.

Stannis has a number of the same advantages Daenerys has, his claim is recent, the person he claims to be the heir of actually sat the IT.

But in the end this is pretty much irrelevant, blood claims matter little if you can't back them up with fire. In that regard Tommen is the true heir.

He is called Iron, but the way he refers to R'hllor's faith as a "Red hawk" makes it clear he is not so unyielding as that. Being blunt in how he speaks can vary with me, sometimes it's what needs to be said, sometimes it's being to sulky to play the game. I don't mind Stannis constantly talking about his rights, but it's odd how Daenerys doing the same thing is received so poorly, that works for a lot similarities they have. *Because they do have a number of them* His wit is great, but I do agree with the sentiment that his being branded as a non-comedic character makes people receive it better. The concept of equal justice is decent in theory, but at the end of the day, highborn lords have more sway and treating them like the smallfolk is uncharacteristically naive. Back to the Daenerys comparisons, because I haven't enraged enough people. What I like about Daenerys' internal conflict is that she separates what she wants to do and what she's going to do quite clearly, the young girl and the Queen. Stannis is simply relentless, and his somewhat similar conflict is about people not liking him. There is the odd moment of internal conflict, like with the aftermath of killing Renly, but they are not so common. I find it more interesting and relatable in the Dany case. Being strong is like being brave, you can only really do it in the face of your weakness.

[The Dragons Hand]

Davos only exists because GRRM needed a way to show what Stannis was doing without using Stannis as a POV.

So, like a Catelyn that actually gets to stay around his protagonist?

[The Drunkard]

So, like a Catelyn that actually gets to stay around his protagonist?

Maybe? I don't know GRRM's reasoning for making Cat a POV rather than Robb, only Davos and Stannis.

[The Dragons Hand]

Maybe? I don't know GRRM's reasoning for making Cat a POV rather than Robb, only Davos and Stannis.

He has said he wonders if he should've mad Robb a PoV. But anyways, I suppose Davos isn't around Stannis that much recently, but other PoV's pick up the slack.

[Guest]

I am not obsessed with Stannis, but if he won overall I would be okay with it. The main reason being that, simply put, when the Wall sent out a call for help he is the only one who remembered his duty and answered it. Some of the stuff he does is messed up, but overall he is a ruler who, while not particularly a good person, does his best to uphold the law and protect the realm. Out of the whole lot of them he is one of only two claiments that does something to help the common folk - Dany frees slaves, Stannis returns to save the Wall to protect the people.

So, when you take him and put him up against some of the other characters, I think it's easy to see why people like him so much.

[Bastard of Nightsong]

Stop trying to make R'hllor happen! It's not going to happen!

But R'hllor is so fetch!

[Primalsplit]

Because he is the Mannis! Nuff Said!

[Eden-Mackenzie]

Have you seen Cersei's Small Council? Aurane Waters. Qyburn. Her closest and most trusted confidante? Taena of Myr. If you love Stannis for his democratic approach, Cersei deserves your love just as much. Does she have it?

There is no comparison between Stannis and Davos and Cersei and Aurane Waters. Davos rescued Stannis, his wife, and the whole of Storm's End during a siege; he served Stannis faithfully and loyally for years; he told Stannis the truth rather than what Stannis wanted to hear, and suffered the consequences for it. Only then did Stannis name him hand, after seeing the disastrous results of being counseled by yes-men. Cersei named Aurane Waters to the council because she wanted to bang a guy who somewhat sort of resembled Rhaegar and because she wrongly assumed that promoting someone who was a relative nobody would make him loyal to her and easy to control. Jaime tells her what poor choices he and the rest of her counsellors are, but she is wrapped up in her paranoia about Tyrion and the Tyrells to listen. She's not being democratic, she's being idiotic.

The first time she had seen him (Aurane Waters)for half a heartbeat she almost thought Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the ashes.

AFFC, Cersei, p. 214 (nook)

Seen up close, his (Aurane Waters) hair was more silvery than gold, and his eyes were grey-green where Prince Rhaegar's had been purple. Even so, the resemblance... She wondered if he would shave his beard for her. Though he was ten years her junior, he wanted her; Cersei could see it in the way he looked at her.

AFFC, Cersei, p. 281 (nook)

"Paxter Redwyne would be a better choice. He commands the largest fleet in Westeros. Aurane Waters could command a skiff, but only if you bought it for him."

"You are a child Jaime. Redwyne is Tyrell's bannerman, and nephew to that hideous grandmother of his. I want none of Lord Tyrell's creatures on my council."

AFFC, Jaime pp. 273-274 (nook)

[Eden-Mackenzie]

To the OP, for me, I like Stannis simply because he's a flawed three-dimensional character who has many qualities both good and bad. He's very much like Jaime Lannister in there's both repulsive and sympathetic qualities to the man. Stannis is a dour, humorless, unpleasant person but he also has a devotion to the job of being King as well as the idea it's a burden rather than a reward. He's (semi) devoted to an insane fire god but said fire god may actually be the only thing which can save Westeros. He's a kinslayer and adulterer but with reasons for both as well as guilt.

Plus how can you not like a guy who says not to put beloved brother on a missive because it'd be a lie?

Stannis is the character I feel the most conflicted about. I was intrigued by him from the beginning, he's mentioned throughout AGOT, and his absence is conspicuous and unexplained. I needed to know more about him and I needed to know it yesterday. And then he finally appears, and I thought "Well, that's different. Please, tell me more." And then I hated him. He refused to compromise with Renly, told Catelyn he would deal with her traitor son next, and murdered Renly with a shadowbaby. Even though I felt horrible for Davos, I was glad Stannis lost the Blackwater, simply because I could not support ACOK Stannis, even though he was the rightful king. Stannis being the lone survivor of TWO5K counts against him for me, if he had just worked with Renly and Robb things could have been so different. But then, we started to see more of who he actually is, and by the end of ADWD, I was on Team Stannis, but with an asterisk because of ACOK. I go through the same cycle with every reread, because Stannis is a well-written, complex character with his own, somewhat rigid, set of rules, and he is true to himself. Stannis is Stannis no matter if it is Cressen, Davos, Catelyn, Jon, Asha, or Theon describing him.

Also, this:

Stannis Baratheon.

How do I begin to explain Stannis Baratheon?

Stannis Baratheon is flawless.

I hear his teeth are insured for 10,000 golden dragons.

I hear he does R'hllor commercials... In the North.

His favourite movie is Papadopoulos & Sons.

One time he met Melisandre on a beach. She told him he was the Lord's Chosen.

One time he defeated a Wildling army north of the Wall.

It was awesome.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

There is no comparison between Stannis and Davos and Cersei and Aurane Waters. Davos rescued Stannis, his wife, and the whole of Storm's End during a siege; he served Stannis faithfully and loyally for years; he told Stannis the truth rather than what Stannis wanted to hear, and suffered the consequences for it. Only then did Stannis name him hand, after seeing the disastrous results of being counseled by yes-men. Cersei named Aurane Waters to the council because she wanted to bang a guy who somewhat sort of resembled Rhaegar and because she wrongly assumed that promoting someone who was a relative nobody would make him loyal to her and easy to control. Jaime tells her what poor choices he and the rest of her counsellors are, but she is wrapped up in her paranoia about Tyrion and the Tyrells to listen. She's not being democratic, she's being idiotic.

(You're saying it as if "democratic" and "idiotic" were mutually exclusive.)

Sure, their personnel choices are very different, but the fact is, both Stannis and Cersei elevated lowborn men to highest offices, and Stannis gets shitloads of praise just for the fact itself. I'm trying to illustrate that there is nothing praiseworthy in the fact itself.

Also: Aurane Waters might have been a pretty boy, but the same cannot be said about Qyburn.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

(You're saying it as if "democratic" and "idiotic" were mutually exclusive.)

Sure, their personnel choices are very different, but the fact is, both Stannis and Cersei elevated lowborn men to highest offices, and Stannis gets shitloads of praise just for the fact itself. I'm trying to illustrate that there is nothing praiseworthy in the fact itself.

Also: Aurane Waters might have been a pretty boy, but the same cannot be said about Qyburn.

Oh, they definitely are not mutually exclusive - I live in Texas and am fully aware of the idiocy that democracy brings out in people. ;)

Rather than idiotic, I could describe Cersei's appointments as dictatorish (dictatorly? dictatorific?). She is surrounding herself with people she believes to be yes-men, simply because she believes they will say "yes" to her and they are not Tyrells. Stannis at least is taking into consideration a person's actual merits when promoting them. Did he make some mistakes? Absolutely, but he isn't infallible, and at the time they seemed like decent choices. He was reluctant to put Davos in charge at first, hence the Florent (I think) he appointed admiral for Blackwater. But eventually he said fuck it and went with Davos, because Davos had shown he was capable and deserving, which has nothing to do with Davos's caste. And to me, that is way Stannis deserves praise for picking Davos, and I like to think that is why others also praise him for it, even if they don't know that's why they are praising him. Because I do agree with you, picking someone solely because they are of low birth is not in and of itself praiseworthy, I just disagree that that was Stannis's motivation.

Aurane was picked for the services he could offer Cersei in the bedroom. Qyburn was picked because he had other services to offer, and because he made sure to present himself to Cersei as the antithesis of her previous counsellors. As Jaime, Tyrion, Kevan, and Tywin were all aware, Cersei has terrible reasoning, logic, and decision making skills.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Davos is more of a protagonist than Stannis

Davos is the good man trying to steer the relentless iceberg that is Stannis Baratheon. The iceberg crushes all in its way mostly without second thought or remorse, and as one can expect when trying to steer something like that, its nearly killed him multiple times.

[HosteenOsteen]

A great and thorough OP.

My only contribution is to quote GRRM himself:

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man,

​I think this is the heart of it.

[Tommen]

But R'hllor is so fetch!

If you're from Dorne, why are you white? (Trololol)

[Nyrhex]

Stop trying to make R'hllor happen! It's not going to happen!

R'hllor: I'm sorry that people are so jealous of me... but I can't help it that I'm so popular.

[Lointain]

Because he is a Baratheon version of Tywin Lannister; with a nice minion - Davos Seaworth - and a misterious minion - Melisandre - at his side.

[Hand to King Davos]

Good list, OP. I would add some of my own.

1. Stannis is a meritocrat.

Davos is a smuggler, but Stannis recognizes his talent, raising him all the way to Hand of the King.

2. Stannis is not very friendly, and people look down on him for no other reason than "I don't like him" (looking at you, Renly)

I sympathize with him for this. He has the ability, but he isn't popular, so people don't like him. I feel the same way sometimes, where people don't believe me because I am not attractive/funny/likeable.

3. Stannis has that indefinable quality that is badassness.

There are some things that Stannis just doesn't care about, like what your family name is, or what people will like, or whether it is even reasonable. If something must be done against all odds, Stannis is the guy.

One quote that sums up almost everything I love about Stannis is when he makes Davos Hand.

"Your lords will complain, Your Grace."

"Then we will make new lords."

He doesn't care what the lords think, he doesn't care who Davos's father was, and he doesn't care about throwing a bone to a lord like Florent. Davos deserves it, so Davos gets it. End of discussion.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

an extra item for the OP, in my opinion.

Since many characters have been whitewashed by the tv show like daenerys at some degree, and mostly the lannisters, while Stannis has been butchered to be seen as a really bad guy, I think being a fan of him as became some kind of book reader identity for some of us.

Its like, "yeah, I like Stannis cause I read the books and know how awsome he is in there (unlist many are convinced of this). I wont buy this HBO shit, you unsullied."

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

an extra item for the OP, in my opinion.

Since many characters have been whitewashed by the tv show like daenerys at some degree, and mostly the lannisters, while Stannis has been butchered to be seen as a really bad guy, I think being a fan of him as became some kind of book reader identity for some of us.

Its like, "yeah, I like Stannis cause I read the books and know how awsome he is in there (unlist many are convinced of this). I wont buy this HBO shit, you unsullied."

:agree:

[Nictarion]

an extra item for the OP, in my opinion.

Since many characters have been whitewashed by the tv show like daenerys at some degree, and mostly the lannisters, while Stannis has been butchered to be seen as a really bad guy, I think being a fan of him as became some kind of book reader identity for some of us.

Its like, "yeah, I like Stannis cause I read the books and know how awsome he is in there (unlist many are convinced of this). I wont buy this HBO shit, you unsullied."

Daenerys hasn't been "whitewashed" on the show. They've shown every dark act from the books so far, and even invented new ones (killing Doreah anyone?).

I didn't care for Stannis before I ever saw him on the show. First impressions are huge, and he came off as an unlikable jerk when we first met him in Cressen's prologue chapter. Although he's done some things to counter that since then like saving the Wall, and going after the Boltons.