Charlie Hebdo under terrorist attack

[Happy Ent]

What is islam other than muslims? What is christianity other than christians or communism other

than communists?

Huh? Communism, Fascism, or Islam are ideologies. (Vile ones, I find.) Criticising ideologies is the very lifeblood of political discourse.

(Why criticism of Islam is called Islamophobia is beyond me. Or rather, it’s not: “a word created by fascists, and used by cowards, to manipulate morons” (Cummins). But I’ll bear it. I’m a fascophobe as well, and a communophobe and a totalitariaphobe. No skin off my back.)

Communists, fascists, and muslims are people. They are often born into those roles. Totalitarian ideologies are hard to get out of.

[The Iceman of the North]

Is this because

(i) all criticism of ideologies is irrational? (I could understand that argument)

(ii) Islam is not an ideology?

Or (iii) - Islam in this sense refer to the adherents as well as the ideology itself.

ETA:

Why criticism of Islam is called Islamophobia is beyond me.

Where did you get the idea that all criticism of Islam is Islamophobia?

[mcbigski]

This is part of why the amount of radicalized Muslims is rising. When your talking about Al Qaeda or ISIS or many of the radical groups, your talking about Sunni extremism. When peaceful Sunnis, and other sects see people demonizing Islam based on the actions of Sunni terrorists they get pissed. If repeatedly hammered with this, you can see how they could get radicalized themselves when they would have lived a quiet, peaceful life otherwise.

What if when they got pissed, they directed their piss on the extremist Sunnis instead of innocents reacting to the attack from extremist Sunnis? Is that an outrageous thing to hope for? Your sort of thinking smacks of blaming the victim to me. And after a certain number of incidents, if one doesn't start to clean one's own house, I start to conclude he's OK with his living conditions, and eventually complicit in them.

[DJDonegal]

Is this because

(i) all criticism of ideologies is irrational? (I could understand that argument)

(ii) Islam is not an ideology?

I'm not trying to make a point related to either of these statements.

My poiny point was that non-Muslims should not be afraid of the people representing Islam (Muslims) simply based on that one piece of information about the individual. That's where the word Islamophobia is most commonly used, and to try and apply the word to something else and suggest that's what the word really means ignores the fact that that's not what it means in most cases in which it's used.

[lojzelote]

What kind of prevention?

In the first place, it would be great if we could freely say that there is a huge problem within Islam in Europe. It appears that many muslims who have come to Western Europe decades of years ago and their children and grandchildren who have grown up in West have not been properly integrated at all, in fact, many of them have been separated from the rest of society and rejected Western values, and now they are getting radicalized and engage in fighting for IS and similar activities.

I think it would be wise for Europe to stop for a moment and rethink whether we should continue this way, i.e. take on new and new waves of immigrants who will almost undoubtedly end up unemployed and living in ghettos, and build for them new and new mosques. Perhaps we should solve the problem among muslims we've already got before spreading Islam further.

[Suttree]

Xenophobia for the win.

Lojzelote, what is the "huge" problem? Why do you think it's a threat to you personally, when the chances are barely above nil that you will ever face danger from an Islamic extremist?

I find it sad that in order to criticize any religion, one apparently first has to preface it by saying that you think "all religion is bad". As if that is the only way to be taken seriously.

You're not even making sense at this point. It was your assertion that the issue is not religious fundamentalism. You then went on to say that Christian fundamentalists for example have not commited acts of terror which is demonstrably false, all while ignoring the numerous other global examples provided from other religions. One has to conclude your are either being disingenuous or are woefully uninformed on the topic.

[lojzelote]

Xenophobia for the win.

Lojzelote, what is the "huge" problem? Why do you think it's a threat to you personally, when the chances are barely above nil that you will ever face danger from an Islamic extremist?

The huge problem had been described in the next few sentences.

Why do I feel threatened? Well, aside of the fact that apparently now people are getting shot at work in Allah's name, just a few days ago, I have been verbally attacked on the bus by a muslim who felt "provoked" and "offended" because I have dared telling my friend that I can't wait to try the wild boar steak for dinner.

[DJDonegal]

Why do I feel threatened? Well, aside of the fact that apparently now people are getting shot at work in Allah's name, just a few days ago, I have been verbally attacked on the bus by a muslim who felt 'provoked' and 'offended' because I have dared telling my friend that I can't wait to try the wild boar steak for dinner.

OK, I can't comment on the personal experience you had...

But as to those being shot at work; it wasn't a random attack. These attackers planned to attack that specific company and specific group of people. So that doesn't move the needle on the chances of you being directly affected. As Suttree says; those chances are barely above nil.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Suttree,

Here's something I struggle with, do people moving into a place with a distinctly different culture have any obligation to change their culturally driven behavior when moving into that new place. I want people to be free to practice their faith, but, what if their faith demands they seek to force others to practice their faith as well? I don't quite know what to do with that.

[Suttree]

The huge problem has been described in the next few sentences.

Why do I feel threatened? Well, aside of the fact that apparently now people are getting shot at work in Allah's name, just a few days ago, I have been verbally attacked on the bus by a muslim who felt "provoked" and "offended" because I have dared telling my friend that I can't wait to try the wild boar steak for dinner.

And 77 people were murdered in Oslo. Why does that change the realistic threat level you face from a Christian extremist? Again the danger to you personally is practically nil.

As for your anecdotal story, just be glad you were not on your way to say an abortion clinic and faced the type of vitriol that comes from those "offended" by your choice. Your irrational fear doesn't give you an excuse to act as if these things are somehow unique to Islam alone and then start blaming immigrants.

[Salafi Stannis]

Suttree,

Here's something I struggle with, do people moving into a place with a distinctly different culture have any obligation to change the culturally driven behavior when moving into that new place. I want people to be free to practice their faith, but, what if their faith demands they seek to force others to practice their faith as well? I don't quite know what to do with that.

Islam encourages that people try to convince others to follow Islam. I don't do that myself, just as I don't do a lot of things in Islam, but still.

[lessthanluke]

Islam encourages that people try to convince others to follow Islam. I don't do that myself, just as I don't do a lot of things in Islam, but still.

So if you don't do a lot of stuff in Islam are you really a muslim?

[DJDonegal]

I want people to be free to practice their faith, but, what if their faith demands they seek to force others to practice their faith as well? I don't quite know what to do with that.

Like Mormons?

[Salafi Stannis]

So if you don't do a lot of stuff in Islam are you really a muslim?

Well, the basic requirement for being a Muslim are: accepting that Allah is God and that Muhammad is his messenger, praying, fasting during Ramadan, giving a certain amount of your wealth to charity (minimum of 1/40th of your overall wealth every year if you can afford it) and going to Hajj at least once in your life if you're able. I haven't had the chance to go to Hajj yet. What I meant is that I'm not the best Muslim, I don't do a whole lot of encouraged activities and I do a lot of prohibited things, but hey, nobody's perfect.

[The Iceman of the North]

Suttree,

Here's something I struggle with, do people moving into a place with a distinctly different culture have any obligation to change the culturally driven behavior when moving into that new place. I want people to be free to practice their faith, but, what if their faith demands they seek to force others to practice their faith as well? I don't quite know what to do with that.

Your ancestors certainly didn't bother to.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Since you're bringing unrelated subjects into this... Say what you will, Czechoslovakia took this stance after the end of WWII and sent their traditional, millions-counting German minority back to Germany, and it worked out quite well for them.

Not just Czechoslovakia. Eastern Europe in general was ethnically cleansed of Germans during the final stages of the war, with about 12 million people being deported out of whom 0.5 - 2 million died/were killed. It's something that isn't very often mentioned when talking about WW2.

Anyway, it will be important to see if these terrorists are ISIS affiliated or not. Because they did promise to launch a wave of terror attacks on Europe, in which case this act might only be the first of many. If they are only Al Qaeda it might not be as serious.

[Salafi Stannis]

It baffles me how so many people think if someone's a Muslim they automatically hold archaic beliefs. I'm a Muslim, but that doesn't mean I'm sexist/misogynistic or homophobic or that I hate "disbelievers".

[lojzelote]

And 77 people were murdered in Oslo. Why does that change the realistic threat level you face from a Christian extremist? Again the danger to you personally is practically nil.

As for your anecdotal story, just be glad you were not on your way to say an abortion clinic and faced the type of vitriol that comes from those "offended" by your choice. Your irrational fear doesn't give you an excuse to act as if these things are somehow unique to Islam alone and then start blaming immigrants.

I live in a country where some 95% of original population are atheists, and there is pretty much no Christian immigration. On the other hand, Muslim immigration have started few years ago and they are already making themselves known. Last month there had been a discussion on TV about whether to allow or not to allow veils in schools and hospitals (for nurses)... and that was something. To quote the chairman of muslim community in our country, the sharia law is "wise" in its stance towards the rights of women. I assure you nothing like that is happening with Christians, at least not where I am. So forgive me, if I am far more concerned with Islam fundamentalism rather than with Christian fundamentalism.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

KStM,

Islam encourages that people try to convince others to follow Islam. I don't do that myself, just as I don't do a lot of things in Islam, but still.

So does Christianity. If a Christian attempts to impose "church law" on a given Nation-State (dispite the fact that I am Christian) I'm going to have a problem with that.

[Salafi Stannis]

KStM,

So does Christianity. If a Christian attempts to impose "church law" on a given Nation-State (dispite the fact that I am Christian) I'm going to have a problem with that.

Your point was about Islam apparently encouraging Muslims to force their religion upon others, which is untrue, there's even a quote from the Quran that says "let there be no compulsion on religion" and another which says "you have your religion and I'll have mine". As for trying to turn non Muslim countries into Muslim countries/impose Sharia law, I wholeheartedly oppose that.