Charlie Hebdo under terrorist attack

[peterbound]

I'd like to ask a question to posters saying Muslims as a whole are to blame. Am I then to blame aswell? I don't seem to enforce my religion on anybody, and I certainly don't hold any beliefs that anybody calls archaic, misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted, nor do I harbour any hatred towards anybody of a different faith, so, if Muslims as a whole are to blame, as I've heard does it extend to me aswell, and if so, why?

I think the bigger question is, as a member of Islam, what have you done to help the religion progress, or stop these acts.

Do you actively speak out against it to fundamentals? Do you even have that sort of exposure?

I think the majority of the 'other side' blame all of islam because they don't see the majority of the peaceful sort speak out, or act in a manner that condemns the actions.

I get the silliness in blaming you. I do, but I think answering those questions would help some understanding for those who are blaming.

ETA: I just want to add. I don't blame you. I do, however, know that these are the questions that are asked around the kitchen table when these discussions come up.

[Suttree]

Are you seriously arguing that both in number and extent, Christian-related atrocities are comparable to Islam-related in recent years?

Haven't posted anything remotely like that. I've just pointed out that there are fundamentalists in other religions Christianity(Northern India), Buddhism(Myanmar) etc. carrying out abhorrent acts right now as in recent years. In the US, call me crazy but the killing of an abortion doctor by Christian extremists or a radio host by Mormon extremists because of his religious views are faith based. These examples are not stated members of a particular religion. They are all members of religious extremist groups. Talk about facepalm, I'm not sure how it's possible to miss that distinction.

I've stated it a number of times but if you want to make the case that Islam is uniquely violent by all means do so.

Its not uniquely more violent, but its at a stage in its history that all other major religions have seemingly finished with.

See examples of India and Myanmar above.

That makes it appropriate to ask questions when this sort of violence occurs that do not get asked when other sorts of violence do.

As do I.

Just saying that somehow equating the perverted faith of these inhumane monsters to that of the vast majority of Muslims is pretty ridiculous. Further singling out Islam without examining any of the root causes of Islamic extremism isn't particularly useful.

I think the majority of the 'other side' blame all of islam because they don't see the majority of the peaceful sort speak out, or act in a manner that condemns the actions.

Totes bro. We never see that.

The usual suspects trying to find excuses while 12 human beings were slaughtered because they dared to draw pictures...

Wtf? Not a single person has done that.

[mormont]

The usual suspects trying to find excuses while 12 human beings were slaughtered because they dared to draw pictures...

No one - absolutely no one - in this thread has tried to 'find excuses' for the atrocity at the offices of Charlie Hebdo.

I think the majority of the 'other side' blame all of islam because they don't see the majority of the peaceful sort speak out, or act in a manner that condemns the actions.

And yet, invariably, when something like this happens, moderate Muslims do speak out and condemn it. They're ignored. Then they're blamed for not speaking out.

[Salafi Stannis]

Agreed with Mormont, Muslims absolutely do speak out, my mosque speaks out against such atrocities all the time. And it's not even just moderates, I know extremely devout Muslims who speak out against these actions because it simply has no part in the faith.

[peterbound]

No one - absolutely no one - in this thread has tried to 'find excuses' for the atrocity at the offices of Charlie Hebdo.

And yet, invariably, when something like this happens, moderate Muslims do speak out and condemn it. They're ignored. Then they're blamed for not speaking out.

I agree. This is what they see:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/01/07/islam-allah-muslims-shariah-anjem-choudary-editorials-debates/21417461/

[Corvinus85]

I'd like to ask a question to posters saying Muslims as a whole are to blame. Am I then to blame aswell? I don't seem to enforce my religion on anybody, and I certainly don't hold any beliefs that anybody calls archaic, misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted, nor do I harbour any hatred towards anybody of a different faith, so, if Muslims as a whole are to blame, as I've heard does it extend to me aswell, and if so, why?

We only blame you for The Blackwater. :P :grouphug:

[Wise Fool]

So you believe someone today is more likely to be killed by a radical Christian than a radical Muslim? Suttree, as usual, you are either clueless or share similar beliefs with these radicals.

Thanks for that, Officer Thought-Police.

Ok, this might sound like a silly argument, but based on my very scarce knowledge of Islam and the Quran, most of the so-called "depictions of Muhammad" are not actually depictions of Muhammad, but drawings that trigger the viewer to infer that they are depictions of Muhammad. Allow me to elaborate:

1. Nobody alive has seen Muhammad, nor are there any high-quality images of him that could tell us what exactly he looked like

2. It is general knowledge that Muhammad was of Arab ethnicity and styles himself in the traditional-of-that-time Arab garb.

3. From 1 and 2 it follows that any drawing of a Arab man with the letters "Muhammad" on top can be inferred to be a depiction of the "holy Prophet".

However, this is a fallacy, because not every drawing of that kind is a depiction of that Muhammad, because Muhammad is a common name to this day and Arab men are quite widespread too. When a person sees a depiction of an Arab man with the name Muhammad and considers it a depiction of the Muhammad, he becomes guilty of the very thing he feels offended by - for it is his interpretation of the drawing that actually depicts Muhammad(the "Prophet"), not the author of the drawing.

From the above it follows that it cannot be proven that anyone from Charlie Hebdo has ever depicted Muhammad (Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim). However, based on the recent attacks, it could be proven that the attackers are guilty of interpreting the drawings as depictions of Muhammad - therefore they are guilty in the face of Islam and would be accordingly punished in the afterlife.

P.S. And this is why the Quran's prohibition against depicting Muhammad makes absolutely no sense to begin with, but who am I, a simple infidel, to argue with a book that is holy to hundreds millions of good men and women around the world ...

A bit of a silly argument. The accuracy of the depiction does not matter, and to infer what someone else has depicted does not make you somehow responsible for the depiction.

I mean that's sort of like if I were to draw a penis, and then ask you what this is, and you said that it's a penis, and then I would observe what a dirty mind you have because of course that's not a penis. It's just a drawing meant to trigger you to infer that it's a penis.

[Salafi Stannis]

I think the bigger question is, as a member of Islam, what have you done to help the religion progress, or stop these acts.

Do you actively speak out against it to fundamentals? Do you even have that sort of exposure?

I think the majority of the 'other side' blame all of islam because they don't see the majority of the peaceful sort speak out, or act in a manner that condemns the actions.

I get the silliness in blaming you. I do, but I think answering those questions would help some understanding for those who are blaming.

ETA: I just want to add. I don't blame you. I do, however, know that these are the questions that are asked around the kitchen table when these discussions come up.

I speak out to anybody who'll listen, and so does my mosque. And I absolutely do have that sort of exposure, living very close to the site of a famous terrorist attack.

[Salafi Stannis]

We only blame you for The Blackwater. :P :grouphug:

This made my day :grouphug:

Seriously, I can't tell you how much I needed that.

[dog-days]

Do you read properly? I already said "allcaps" are awful. Emphasizing a very limited amount of words with Caps is different. Not every internet platform supports Bold or Italics, and some people can be accustomed to only use Caps for emphasis.

Then do without them. Use evidence. Use reason. Reject the hyper-emotionalism that malforms internet political debates.

[Fjordgazer]

Then do without them. Use evidence. Use reason. Reject the hyper-emotionalism that malforms internet political debates.

So now you want to extend your "argument" to any for form of emphasizing text, not only Caps? If i'm understanding you right, that's silly. Bold, Italics and Underline were not invented by Tumblr or Facebook for millennial kids.

Haven't posted anything remotely like that. I've just pointed out that there are fundamentalists in other religions Christianity(Northern India), Buddhism(Myanmar) etc. carrying out abhorrent acts right now as in recent years. In the US, call me crazy but the killing of an abortion doctor by Christian extremists or a radio host by Mormon extremists because of his religious views are faith based. These examples are not stated members of a particular religion. They are all members of religious extremist groups. Talk about facepalm, I'm not sure how it's possible to miss that distinction.

If you haven't posted "anything remotely" like that, then you accept my premise that Islam-inspired violence is more prevalent than Christian-inspired violence. So now the argument boils down to this:

I've stated it a number of times but if you want to make the case that Islam is uniquely violent by all means do so.

In the name of what other religion are there cartoonists being assassinated? Is that "unique" enough for you?

Jesus! [not that i believe in him anymore]

[Salafi Stannis]

Criticise Islam by all means, but too many posters here are taking the blame to Muslims (and not just extremists mind you, all Muslims) and that is unjustifiable and morally repugnant.

[Rockroi]

I'd like to ask a question to posters saying Muslims as a whole are to blame. Am I then to blame aswell? I don't seem to enforce my religion on anybody, and I certainly don't hold any beliefs that anybody calls archaic, misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted, nor do I harbour any hatred towards anybody of a different faith, so, if Muslims as a whole are to blame, as I've heard does it extend to me aswell, and if so, why?

I do not blame Muslims, other than the Muslims who did this.

I blame Islam for producing the ideology that launched these attacks.

And I do believe that its up to moderate Muslims to do heavy lifting and to root out "the wrong Muslims." Saying you don't like it when 12 people are slain in your Prophet's name is only a start. Stop supporting those that do this; stop having your government shelter them - I mean... where was bin Laden found again? Oh, that's right, "moderate" Pakistan. Stop accepting the loud rhetoric from your criminally depraved breather whose mosques festered the 9/11 plots in Hamburg. Stop turning a blind eye to the supposed "radical" elements. Insist that your sisters' rights are protected and insist that they have autonomy over their bodies s we are doing in the West.

And then, whatever you do, DO NOT then say "Look, I don't agree with what they did... but Muhammad IS sacred to us so ... please do not use his picture ...." Do not ask us to make concessions. We are not the problem.

Do what Western Nations have always done, turn a bright light on the unsavory elements- the decline of the KKK in the US is an incredible example. Have governments that will not tolerate the violence. Don't support Hamas; insist that Hamas take down the Protocols of the Elders of Zion from their web page. Don't support your irrational, illegitimate governments and don't vote promote Hamas INTO a government. Look critically at Israel but stop accepting the vioelnce done to them as a natural reaction to something Israel did. Argue and fiercely protest those in your nation that do these things.

Insist on free markets, free enterprise, and strong, freely elected governments. Fight for them; nobody will give them to you.

And eventually- long term - you will, naturally, turn Islam into a relic the way the West is turning Christianity into one.

[dog-days]

So now you want to extend your "argument" to any for form of emphasizing text, not only Caps? If i'm understanding you right, that's silly. Bold, Italics and Underline were not invented by Tumblr or Facebook for millennial kids.

No, but they have been much abused by them.

[Salafi Stannis]

I do not blame Muslims, other than the Muslims who did this.

I blame Islam for producing the ideology that launched these attacks.

Except Islam did not produce this ideology. The Quran said that "there is no compulsion in religion" and the prophet pbuh said that extremists are "the worst of creation".

[Suttree]

my premise that Islam-inspired violence is more prevalent than Christian-inspired violence. So now the argument boils down to this:

I didn't realize it was a contest over sheer numbers. Also not sure if you missed it but as I said above singling out Islam without examining any of the root causes of Islamic extremism isn't particularly useful. Why are you pretending this all happens in a vacuum?

In the name of what other religion are there cartoonists being assassinated? Is that "unique" enough for you?

You can not possibly be putting this forth as a serious argument. It's rather telling that no one is even attempting to make a case for why Islam in it's essence is inherently/uniquely violent.

Don't support your irrational, illegitimate governments

Totally, just like the west right? Speaking of that...

Do what Western Nations have always done, turn a bright light on the unsavory elements-

It is beyond impressive if you kept a straight face while typing the above.

[Salafi Stannis]

.

[Salafi Stannis]

The prophet Muhammad (pbuh): "Whoever kills one who is under an agreement of protection will not smell the fragrance of Paradise."

[Salafi Stannis]

Prophet Muhammad: "They (extremists) are the dogs of the hellfire, they used to be Muslims but turned disbelievers".

[Castel]

I do not blame Muslims, other than the Muslims who did this.

I blame Islam for producing the ideology that launched these attacks.

And I do believe that its up to moderate Muslims to do heavy lifting and to root out "the wrong Muslims." Saying you don't like it when 12 people are slain in your Prophet's name is only a start. Stop supporting those that do this; stop having your government shelter them - I mean... where was bin Laden found again? Oh, that's right, "moderate" Pakistan. Stop accepting the loud rhetoric from your criminally depraved breather whose mosques festered the 9/11 plots in Hamburg. Stop turning a blind eye to the supposed "radical" elements. Insist that your sisters' rights are protected and insist that they have autonomy over their bodies s we are doing in the West.

And then, whatever you do, DO NOT then say "Look, I don't agree with what they did... but Muhammad IS sacred to us so ... please do not use his picture ...." Do not ask us to make concessions. We are not the problem.

Do what Western Nations have always done, turn a bright light on the unsavory elements- the decline of the KKK in the US is an incredible example. Have governments that will not tolerate the violence. Don't support Hamas; insist that Hamas take down the Protocols of the Elders of Zion from their web page. Don't support your irrational, illegitimate governments and don't vote promote Hamas INTO a government. Look critically at Israel but stop accepting the vioelnce done to them as a natural reaction to something Israel did. Argue and fiercely protest those in your nation that do these things.

Insist on free markets, free enterprise, and strong, freely elected governments. Fight for them; nobody will give them to you.

And eventually- long term - you will, naturally, turn Islam into a relic the way the West is turning Christianity into one.

tl:dr: Amorphous groups of moderates are responsible for everything, the situations that make all the individual cases different and problematic , ISIS vs. Iran vs. random people with guns vs. random Sharia promoters in London are of course irrelevant to getting us to the required destination, which is the greatest value here.