BearQueen87 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Most regulars here do not bash on Dany, nor do I. Why in the world... Nevermind. It was a weird morning and coming into RLJ (my home port) and seeing that Dany was getting some seemingly random, out of nowhere criticism in a thread that normally pretty neutral toward her, just rubbed me the wrong way after I spent a lot of time yesterday talking about the level of discourse that occurs whenever she is brought up. Forget I said anything. Let's just go back to talking about Aerys, Viserys, and the question of succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 For our references. This was posted in another thread and it might be something we want to tuck away for future. Recognizing that the novels couldn’t be condensed into films, Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss sought to adapt them as a television series for HBO, but had to pass several trials along the way. The first was winning over Mr. Martin in a lunchtime meeting that was mostly collegial, but where Mr. Weiss and Mr. Benioff were quizzed about the parents of Jon Snow, a “Game of Thrones” character of mysterious lineage. (“We had a whole conversation about it,” Mr. Benioff said, “and George was pleased that we got the answer right.”)" http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/arts/television/game-of-thrones-on-hbo-from-george-r-r-martin-novels.html?_r=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGBeyondAsshai Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 For our references. This was posted in another thread and it might be something we want to tuck away for future. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/arts/television/game-of-thrones-on-hbo-from-george-r-r-martin-novels.html?_r=1 I love that and have used it for proof of the importance of this issue in the series, and RLJ :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Shiny . . . precious . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 "Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor's Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King's Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that." Why did Ned enter KL via the King's Gate? That is nearly all the way around the city from the direction he was coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Shiny . . . precious . . . Haha, I am on the very last pages of Return of the King now, but Gollum and the Ring already are no more... eta: Why did Ned enter KL via the King's Gate? That is nearly all the way around the city from the direction he was coming from? Maybe the road leading there was clear and he would not have to cross all of the city (if he already had news of the chaos) to reach the red keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Why did Ned enter KL via the King's Gate? That is nearly all the way around the city from the direction he was coming from? It is a bit odd. The Iron Gate or Dragon Gate are closest to the Red Keep and would have been more convenient for an army coming from the Trident. Could be that Jaime was mistaken. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 It is a bit odd. The Iron Gate or Dragon Gate are closest to the Red Keep and would have been more convenient for an army coming from the Trident. Could be that Jaime was mistaken. :dunno: Jaime could be mistaken. Also, we do not know what had happened to various gates during the sack by the Lannister force. Do we know how (via which gate) the Lannister forces entered KL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Doesn't the World Book state that Aerys was the last to die? It does, but look at the context: Yandel is whitewashing the Lannister actions on the day. He suggests it happened during the chaos of storming the walls of the Red Keep, and goes so far as to blame Aerys for ordering Elia and her children killed. Obviously that would be less credible if Aerys had already been killed. I think Jamie's a much more reliable witness on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Jaime could be mistaken. Also, we do not know what had happened to various gates during the sack by the Lannister force. Do we know how (via which gate) the Lannister forces entered KL? I don't recall. It would make more sense if Tywin entered through the Kings Gate, Lion Gate or Gate of the Gods since those are closest to the Goldroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Why did Ned enter KL via the King's Gate? That is nearly all the way around the city from the direction he was coming from? Perhaps to avoid fights with the remainder of Tywin's army? Or simply to avoid that part of Tywin's army, and whatever they had brought with them and left outside of the city (wagons and such)... It does, but look at the context: Yandel is whitewashing the Lannister actions on the day. He suggests it happened during the chaos of storming the walls of the Red Keep, and goes so far as to blame Aerys for ordering Elia and her children killed. Obviously that would be less credible if Aerys had already been killed. I think Jamie's a much more reliable witness on this one. Yet Jaime wasn't there either. What was easier to enter? The Red Keep, or Maegor's Holdfast? Gregor and Amory went over the walls with Maegor's Holdfast, but was the Red Keep undefended then? Doors opened? The King unguarded (in the throne room, yes, but outside the throne room?)..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Maybe our maps are just too recent and maybe in 2007 the King's Road lead to the King's Gate, while in 2012 it leads to the Dragon Gate (in) and River Gate (out South). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Perhaps to avoid fights with the remainder of Tywin's army? Or simply to avoid that part of Tywin's army, and whatever they had brought with them and left outside of the city (wagons and such)... Tywin likely left some small contingent outside the Gate. A scout sees this, informs Ned, so he goes in another way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Tywin likely left some small contingent outside the Gate. A scout sees this, informs Ned, so he goes in another way. Sounds likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalatis Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 "Why is Jaime considered a kingslayer, but nobody ever describes Gregor Clegane as a kingslayer?" Perhaps you have to be crowned to be King? A religious ceremony. It's also possible that the order of events is unknown to the public. And considering some claim that Aerys was the one to kill Aegon, it is not widely known that Gregor was the one who did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Maybe our maps are just too recent and maybe in 2007 the King's Road lead to the King's Gate, while in 2012 it leads to the Dragon Gate (in) and River Gate (out South). Was the map of King's Landing depicting the gates of the city also in the earliest print of A Clash of Kings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Perhaps you have to be crowned to be King? A religious ceremony. It's also possible that the order of events is unknown to the public. And considering some claim that Aerys was the one to kill Aegon, it is not widely known that Gregor was the one who did it. It should also be noted that Jaime is not called "kingslayer" simply because he killed a king but rather that he killed the king he was sworn to protect. I suspect that if Aerys was killed by someone else (non KG), that person would not have been labelled "kingslayer". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 It should also be noted that Jaime is not called "kingslayer" simply because he killed a king but rather that he killed the king he was sworn to protect. I suspect that if Aerys was killed by someone else (non KG), that person would not have been labelled "kingslayer". Correct. Ned even says that Aerys did have to die, but at his hand or by Roberts (Ned II, AGOT) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Yet Jaime wasn't there either. What was easier to enter? The Red Keep, or Maegor's Holdfast? Gregor and Amory went over the walls with Maegor's Holdfast, but was the Red Keep undefended then? Doors opened? The King unguarded (in the throne room, yes, but outside the throne room?)..? "The castle is ours, ser, and the city," Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor's Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King's Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that. It looks like the Red Keep was the priority for the forces led by Crakehall. Essentially once Aerys was dead the battle was won, but the sack and the deaths of Elia and her children was yet to come. Of course this is hindsight and Jaime might be relying on privileged information to know who died first. The Worldbook contradiction at least tells us that the details weren't universally clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Correct. Ned even says that Aerys did have to die, but at his hand or by Roberts (Ned II, AGOT) Correcting myself with the actual quote "Seven hells, someone had to kill Aerys!" Robert said, reining his mount to a sudden halt beside an ancient barrow. "If Jaime hadn't done it, it would have been left for you or me." "We were not Sworn Brothers of the KG" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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