R + L = J v. 126

[IceFire125]

What chapter is this passage from?

ASOS, Dany IV

[BearQueen87]

A Jarl.

http://vikings.wikia.com/wiki/Jarl_Borg?file=Jarl_c1.png

Yeeeeeees! Vikings!!!! (Season three, coming soon!)

[imaginepageant]

A Jarl.

http://vikings.wikia.com/wiki/Jarl_Borg?file=Jarl_c1.png

Another Jarl.

[RumHam]

My view is that yes, the book that is presented at court is indeed titled The World of Ice and Fire (no subtitle, or at least a very different one from the real-world book).

That's sort of a shocker, no? I mean I don't see why Yandel would give a history book written for Robert Joffrey Tommen that title. Maybe he knows something? (...but he couldn't know that right?) Maybe he's a bigger fan of Barth than he lets on in his writings? Maybe he's associated with Marwyn?

[The Twinslayer]

EDIT: a further point. Of course, the king goes without KG protection when he rides a dragon. For example, see the description in TPATQ of Rhaenyra's flight from Dragonstone to KL. There is no KG on the dragon with her, and when she lands she is greeted by Daemon, not by any KGs.

Here is the quote:

"And on Dragonstone, Rhaenyra Targaryen donned a suit of gleaming black scale, mounted Syrax, and took flight as a storm lashed the waters of Blackwater Bay. High above the city the queen and her consort came together, circling over Aegon's high hill.

...

Only when he was certain that the defenders would offer him no harm did he signal for his wife the queen to descend upon Syrax."

[Ser Creighton]

I got a couple of little quotes here that I am not sure if I should post on R+L=J, they come from Bran and Dany chapters, now I know some are not a fan of Dany, but they are actually pretty good quotes and I don't think it is hard to see how they relate to Jon. After all Bran and Dany often give us good Jon stuff. One quote you know but I wanted too put with this other passage and you will see why. Not that it supports anything I have ever posted, either way I think you will find it intresting.

Chapter 71 Swords.

She was Daenerys Stormborn, the Unburnt, khaleesi and queen, Mother of Dragons, slayer of warlocks, breaker of chains, and there was no one in the world that she could trust.

My city, said Dany. I was looking for a house with a red door, but by night all the doors are black.

A red door? Missandei was puzzled. What house is this?

No house. It does not matter. Dany took the younger girl by the hand. Never lie to me, Missandei. Never betray me.

I never would, Missandei promised. Look, dawn comes.

Bran

Most like theyre just some Umbers, he said. Or they could be Knotts or Norreys or Flints come down from the mountains, or even brothers from the Nights Watch. Were they wearing black cloaks, Jojen?

"By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace."

I wonder if that red door really means what we think it means. Kind of funny how it even says it's not a house. I think it is house, just not in this passage. What is that coming, I can't see the sun is in my eyes.

[IceFire125]

I got a couple of little quotes here that I am not sure if I should post on R+L=J, they come from Bran and Dany chapters, now I know some are not a fan of Dany, but they are actually pretty good quotes and I don't think it is hard to see how they relate to Jon. After all Bran and Dany often give us good Jon stuff. One quote you know but I wanted too put with this other passage and you will see why. Not that it supports anything I have ever posted, either way I think you will find it intresting.

Chapter 71 Swords.

She was Daenerys Stormborn, the Unburnt, khaleesi and queen, Mother of Dragons, slayer of warlocks, breaker of chains, and there was no one in the world that she could trust.

My city, said Dany. I was looking for a house with a red door, but by night all the doors are black.

A red door? Missandei was puzzled. What house is this?

No house. It does not matter. Dany took the younger girl by the hand. Never lie to me, Missandei. Never betray me.

I never would, Missandei promised. Look, dawn comes.

Bran

Most like theyre just some Umbers, he said. Or they could be Knotts or Norreys or Flints come down from the mountains, or even brothers from the Nights Watch. Were they wearing black cloaks, Jojen?

"By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace."

I wonder if that red door really means what we think it means. Kind of funny how it even says it's not a house. I think it is house, just not in this passage. What is that coming, I can't see the sun is in my eyes.

Robb looked relieved. “Good.” He smiled. “The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.”

Jon forced himself to smile back. “It was always my color.”

--

Once (Jon) had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard’s heart.

“I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?” Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.”

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Robb looked relieved. “Good.” He smiled. “The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.”

Jon forced himself to smile back. “It was always my color.”

I do love that one. So much stuff, right there the whole time.

[J. Stargaryen]

Robb looked relieved. “Good.” He smiled. “The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.”

Jon forced himself to smile back. “It was always my color.”

--

Once (Jon) had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard’s heart.

“I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?” Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.”

The first part probably took on additional significance with the release of the The Princess and the Queen, or, the Blacks and the Greens, since the Blacks were the side with the rightful claim. Black was always Jon's color, eh?

[Ygrain]

Sorry but NO. And also sorry for not breaking the quotes properly, it's really too long and I am short of time.

The line "Ser Willem is a good man and true" is a rather odd one, and often rather glossed over when people try to understand this dream. Why do they say this to Ned? It's a brief, abrupt exchange between the parties, and this line stands out in giving more detail than appears necessary. Whent stops to comment on the qualities of a man who isn't present - directly paralleling the idea that when the Kingsguard are not present, members of the Kingsguard are required to vouch for the Brother's brother protecting him.

"But not of Kingsguard." This sentence speaks volumes - it means that Willem Darry is not subject to the same set of rules or high standards as KG.

When we look at the dialogue, we see it's divided into a set of challenges; Ned is not really casually commenting on where he believed they would be, he is challenging them to answer why they were not there. The format of the dialogue is, as has been pointed out many times before, oddly ritualistic. They refuse to give a direct answer ("We were not there", "Far away"), and then boast things would have gone differently if they had been. The challenge as to why they are not with Viserys is the only time the 3KG break from this pattern. Instead of giving the "We were not there" type response, they validate the man who has gone to perform that task instead. In terms of the Kingsguard meeting ritual, they could be seen to be justifying why they didn't have to be there. We can almost see in the dream dialogue an echo of a debate between the 3KG, as if as well as talking to Ned, they are treading over old ground in their own discussions of where they should be and what they should be doing.

See above - they are actually not validating him, in the sense that they are not putting him on the same level as themselves.

We don't have to assume that this specific ritual was literally in play at the ToJ to see a rather strong parallel if Viserys was in fact Aerys' successor:

• A king has just been killed, and is succeeded by a boy king
• The (surviving) Kingsguard are all in one place
• The defence of the boy king is performed by (a) brother's brother(s).
• A ritual dialogue ("The words were ritual.")
• A validation of the man/men protecting the king by the absent KG.

Because of the above, an invalid line of reasoning, not to mention that paralelling the ritualisation of the dialogue in the dream with the staff meeting procedure is rather dubious, IMO.

The second example of an absent Kingsguard is from The Princess and the Queen.

This example directly contradicts the suggestion that the first duty of the Kingsguard demands that they must always ensure there is a member of the Kingsguard with the king. In this case, it was presumably felt that his safety was better assured by stealth than arms; it was his safety that was paramount, not the presence of the Kingsguard. Instead, the two Kingsguard who left King's Landing with him went their separate ways to guard his children and heirs. Aegon II was on Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection for half a year; at no point did either of the two Kingsguard feel that their vows demanded that they must go to Dragonstone to protect him rather than continuing their duty to protect the heirs.

It's true that in this example, the King's safety is best ensured without his KG, but it hardly contradicts anything as it is a very specific situation which does not apply to the end of RR as Viserys' location is known. And your last line does not apply at all - in Aegon's case, they were a KG short and there was exactly one KG assigned to each of the royal children, whereas at ToJ there were actually two KG to spare for the task.

Besides, even though the text said that "Larys decreed", Aegon was still present to condone the decision - again, not the case at ToJ.

"Then as now", sound familiar? In Ned's dream, Arthur's response to the question of the Kingsguard's vow and their absence from Dragonstone is "Then or now", providing both a textual and contextual parallel to TPaTQ. This introduction to the Kingsguard specifies that they devote their lives to defending the king's person and kin.

Only, Arthur Dayne says it in an entirely different context - they actually say that they would not put the defence of the king's kin on the same level or even above protecting the king.

In TPaTQ, two members of the Kingsguard are described as fleeing – yet in Ned's dream, "The Kingsguard does not flee." This is the line immediately following "Then or now", which seems to be inviting us to draw a parallel. This of course highlights an obvious flaw in Gerold Hightower's claim – of course the Kingsguard would flee if the king was fleeing and ordered them to go with him. So why does Hightower tell Ned this, when history says otherwise?

Not really sure what you are aiming at here. The TPATQ knights fled KL with the king. The ToJ trio would have fled without the king, in a situation where there was no secrecy vs. safety issue, they would be abandoning the king. What they say is that they wouldn't have abandoned the king then, and they wouldn't abandon him now.

Going back to the patterned response of the 3KG's dialogue mentioned earlier, this is the boast section. They would not have defeated the rebels at the trident, they would not have kept Aerys on the Iron Throne, and they do (did) flee. Each boast is false, but it tells Ned of their confidence, and their adherence to the Kingsguard's duties even if all seems hopeless. Now, just as with "We were not there" and "far away", they are telling Ned (and us) here that they were not breaking their vows, but rather had another duty to perform – at the Tower of Joy – and they are not going to flee from that duty, whatever the cost. The point is that Fell and Thorne would have said they were not fleeing; the king and his family were fleeing, and the Kingsguard were accompanying them. Viserys fled, and had the Kingsguard gone to Dragonstone to be with him, they would not have been fleeing, they would have been doing their duty and accompanying him – then as now.

Why do you claim that the boasts are false? Had they been at the Trident, Rhaegar indeed may have lived and Robert died. Had they been at KL, it wouldn't have fallen to Jaime to be with Aerys all the time and they would have cut him to pieces rather than let him murder the king.

In terms of a debate at the ToJ before Ned's arrival, it's easy to see these arguments winning out. Hightower is, it seems, an honourable man and a stickler for duty. However, at this juncture duty is unclear. Viserys may be Aerys' named heir, but he hasn't actually been crowned yet, and Hightower would not be determined to go to Dragonstone, he would be determined to whatever seemed right. Dayne, on the other hand, would have real reason to argue against Dragonstone; he wouldn't want to go to Dragonstone to support Viserys, effectively conceding defeat to Aerys, rather than following Rhaegar's plan. He has the advantage of precedent to quote, he has the advantage of arguing for following the orders they had been given rather than making their own, and he has the advantage of caring personally what the outcome of the debate should be. I suspect we will find that he was a rather more intelligent man than slow, dependable Hightower, too. Hightower might have been the man with authority, but he doesn't have a dog in the race and only needs to be persuaded that staying is the right thing to do. The Dragonstone option wouldn't stand a chance.

Conclusion: The idea that Viserys might have been named as heir does not demand that the Kingsguard leave the ToJ to go and protect him. There are two parallels that indicate this, one a very direct example of a king on Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection, while the Kingsguard protect the heirs to the throne, the other that the king can be considered safe when he's protected by a Brother's brother who's worth has been validated by members of the KG. If the 3KG are assuming the duty of protecting the king's kin, they are not obliged to go to Dragonstone to be with a king who it is reasonable to consider is secure for the moment, by the clear precedent of Aegon II.

When it comes to the old protect vs. obey debate, people have often suggested that protect would demand that at least one of the 3KG head to Dragonstone. Yet it turns out that the duty of protect can sometimes mean protecting the heirs while the king is safe on Dragonstone. Thus protect vs. obey may simply be a moot point; a strong case can be made for staying at the ToJ whichever side of protect vs. obey you are on -- and it seems likely that Dayne would have made that case.

If we accept this parallel, then by extension, the obvious conclusion is that as the 3KG were absent from Dragonstone and the kings side, they must have had a very good reason, such as guarding the king's kin. The parallel implies something a little more than that too – the fact that the Fell and Thorne were specifically guarding the king's heirs adds weight to the theory the Jon would be next in line after Viserys – and thus that he was considered legitimate.

Conclusion: the TPATQ parallel is invalid because of the vastly different circumstances. Plus, if you also arrive at the conclusion that Jon must have been legitimate, it brings us back to the question I poised some time ago: what is the narrative purpose of naming Viserys heir when it virtually affects nothing?

[markg171]

Sorry but NO. And also sorry for not breaking the quotes properly, it's really too long and I am short of time.

Not really sure what you are aiming at here. The TPATQ knights fled KL with the king. The ToJ trio would have fled without the king, in a situation where there was no secrecy vs. safety issue, they would be abandoning the king. What they say is that they wouldn't have abandoned the king then, and they wouldn't abandon him now.

How then do you explain Lewyn choosing to stand and fight despite the fact that he was mortally wounded and his host had been broken? He'd been commanded to fight Robert's forces, and it seemingly never once crossed his mind to flee with his host. Almost as if he couldn't because of his vows. He'd been told to do something, and he did it. He literally couldn't flee because he'd been told to fight. There's a strong parallel here in my mind. None of the KG could flee once they'd been told to do something.

Only, Arthur Dayne says it in an entirely different context - they actually say that they would not put the defence of the king's kin on the same level or even above protecting the king.

Then why weren't they defending Aerys? If they wouldn't put the defence of the king's kin above the defence of the king, then why were they defending the kin, instead of the king?

[markg171]

Robb looked relieved. “Good.” He smiled. “The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.”

Jon forced himself to smile back. “It was always my color.”

--

Once (Jon) had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard’s heart.

“I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?” Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.”

So Rhaegar was a bastard then?

[IceFire125]

So Rhaegar was a bastard then?

Yup! if I have your eyes and your understanding of the texts, I guess so. Forget what GRRM was trying to tell you with word associations, like you always said, it's in the books remember?

So, who's Jon's Mother again?

[markg171]

Yup! if I have your eyes and your understanding of the texts, I guess so. Forget what GRRM was trying to tell you with word associations, like you always said, it's in the books remember?

So, who's Jon's Mother again?

You're the one who just tried to link a bastard's heart (not Jon's, just bastards in general) which is described as black, with Rhaegar's black heart. So according to your reading of the text, they're connected. In which case, GRRM is telling us that Rhaegar's black heart indicates a bastard's heart, which makes Rhaegar a bastard.

Don't act like I'm the idiot when you try and connect the dumbest things together and it backfires. If I'd simply just read the text and went with what's always in the books, I'd say that Rhaegar is the legitimate son of Aerys as it's in the books. Trying to make all these connections like you are, makes Rhaegar a bastard as only bastard's have black hearts.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Some Daeron and Rhaegar similarities/parallels from Feast, Sam II.

And did GRRM declare a subtle hint that Rhaegar was innocent of raping Lyanna? I think so. ^_^

Fair-haired and hazel-eyed, the handsome young singer (Daeron) out of Eastwatch looked more like some dark prince than a black brother.

...

Even Dareon would be happier. He had always claimed to be innocent of the rape that sent him to the Wall, insisting that he belonged at some lord’s court, singing for his supper. Now he would have that chance. Jon had named him a recruiter, to take the place of a man named Yoren, who had vanished and was presumed dead. His task would be to travel the Seven Kingdoms, singing of the valor of the Night’s Watch, and from time to time returning to the Wall with new recruits.

...

Dareon had not been much of a swordsman, Sam knew from their days training under Alliser Thorne, but he had a beautiful voice. “Honey poured over thunder,” Maester Aemon had once called it. He played woodharp and fiddle too, and even wrote his own songs

-----

“Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance.”

That's Dareon, not Daeron ;)

How then do you explain Lewyn choosing to stand and fight despite the fact that he was mortally wounded and his host had been broken? He'd been commanded to fight Robert's forces, and it seemingly never once crossed his mind to flee with his host. Almost as if he couldn't because of his vows. He'd been told to do something, and he did it. He literally couldn't flee because he'd been told to fight. There's a strong parallel here in my mind. None of the KG could flee once they'd been told to do something.

If Lewyn surrenders, Elia dies. As long as Lewyn fights, he can still hope to turn the battle around. As long ad he dies fighting for Aerys, Aerys could not (logically speaking) think that Lewyn betrayed Rhaegar and House Targaryen. If Lewyn were to surrender or flee, Elia would die for certain.

Lewyn would have had no other choice but to keep fighting, if he wanted to safe Elia (and her children)

[J. Stargaryen]

You're the one who just tried to link a bastard's heart (not Jon's, just bastards in general) which is described as black, with Rhaegar's black heart. So according to your reading of the text, they're connected. In which case, GRRM is telling us that Rhaegar's black heart indicates a bastard's heart, which makes Rhaegar a bastard.

Don't act like I'm the idiot when you try and connect the dumbest things together and it backfires. If I'd simply just read the text and went with what's always in the books, I'd say that Rhaegar is the legitimate son of Aerys as it's in the books. Trying to make all these connections like you are, makes Rhaegar a bastard as only bastard's have black hearts.

No one is acting.

[markg171]

No one is acting.

So you think Rhaegar is a bastard too?

I'm not in the wrong here. GRRM says that bastard's have black hearts. Not that Jon personally has a black heart. Rhaegar is described as having a black heart by Robert. If you're going to try and link the two, you're calling Rhaegar a bastard as it's bastard's who have black hearts.

[Ygrain]

How then do you explain Lewyn choosing to stand and fight despite the fact that he was mortally wounded and his host had been broken? He'd been commanded to fight Robert's forces, and it seemingly never once crossed his mind to flee with his host. Almost as if he couldn't because of his vows. He'd been told to do something, and he did it. He literally couldn't flee because he'd been told to fight. There's a strong parallel here in my mind. None of the KG could flee once they'd been told to do something.

Did he even have an option to retreat? Did he try to hold at least some men from fleeing by his example? Did he know that he was done, anyway, so running was no use?

Really, you're comparing apples and pears... again.

Then why weren't they defending Aerys? If they wouldn't put the defence of the king's kin above the defence of the king, then why were they defending the kin, instead of the king?

Sigh. Time and again: how many KG were there altogether? Seven. How many did Aerys have? Four. Were all of them required to be with him at all times? No, he sent Barristan and Martell to muster his armies while keeping Jaime and Darry. What does this mean? That as long as there are some KG with the king, the rest can be assigned other tasks. The situation kin vs king applies only after the Sack, which is why we are having this whole argument.

So you think Rhaegar is a bastard too?

I'm not in the wrong here. GRRM says that bastard's have black hearts. Not that Jon personally has a black heart. Rhaegar is described as having a black heart by Robert. If you're going to try and link the two, you're calling Rhaegar a bastard as it's bastard's who have black hearts.

An epic fail... yet again.

The father was described as having a black heart, the son was described as having a black heart. Like father, like son.

[markg171]

Did he even have an option to retreat? Did he try to hold at least some men from fleeing by his example? Did he know that he was done, anyway, so running was no use?

Really, you're comparing apples and pears... again.

Sigh. Time and again: how many KG were there altogether? Seven. How many did Aerys have? Four. Were all of them required to be with him at all times? No, he sent Barristan and Martell to muster his armies while keeping Jaime and Darry. What does this mean? That as long as there are some KG with the king, the rest can be assigned other tasks. The situation kin vs king applies only after the Sack, which is why we are having this whole argument.

An epic fail... yet again.

The father was described as having a black heart, the son was described as having a black heart. Like father, like son.

Why do you constantly try and say they knew Aerys had 4 KG? It might be true, but they also damn well knew that Rhaegar was riding off to war and would be taking the KG with him. So they knew that Aerys would be left unprotected or understaffed. Hell you even say right there that they could be assigned other tasks (I. E that Rhaegar told them to do something). So they were told to do something, otherwise the most logical thing that would have happened when Hightower summoned Rhaegar to court to go fight Robert, would be for the KG to go to KL knowing that Aerys' KG would be leaving him. Unless they couldn't which is exactly what they mention.

And no, the only epic fail here is you guys. Jon is not described as having a black heart there. Bastards are described as having a black heart. Jon is described as having black blood that's as dark as a bastards heart. The conversation is about Jon's blood not his heart. So if you try and link Robert's comment of Rhaegar's black heart to this sentence, you are linking him to being a bastard, not Jon.

[Mithras]

Robb looked relieved. “Good.” He smiled. “The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.”

Jon forced himself to smile back. “It was always my color.”

--

Once (Jon) had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard’s heart.

“I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?” Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.”

I am thinking of the Hoares.

Archmaester Hake tells us that the kings of House Hoare were, “black of hair, black of eye, and black of heart.” Their foes claimed their blood was black as well, darkened by the “Andal taint,” for many of the early Hoare kings took maidens of that ilk to wife. True ironborn had salt water in their veins, the priests of the Drowned God proclaimed; the black-blooded Hoares were false kings, ungodly usurpers who must be cast down.

The dragonflame that destroyed Harrenhal put a fiery end to King Harren’s dreams , the domination of the riverlands by the ironborn, and the “black line” of House Hoare.

Qhorin Volmark , a minor lord on Harlaw, was the first man to claim the kingship. His grandmother had been a younger sister of Harwyn Hardhand. On the basis of that tie, Volmark declared himself the rightful heir of “the black line.”