R + L = J v. 126

[sabrecmc]

Patchface's quote about under the sea it snows up and the rain is dry as bone...I keep wanting that to be about ash, like maybe volcanic ash. The only thing I can think of that would look like "snow" spewing up from the volcano and would fall down like dry rain...maybe something to do with the Doom? I don't know. I know people generally use this one as referring to the purple wedding, the nennymoans being Sansa's hair thing.

[markg171]

Oh, I was responding to the argument that Wylla really IS Jon's mother "because Ned says so". If Wylla really were Jon's mother, and Ned sees no issue with telling the king, then it's unbelievable to me that he would keep that from Jon himself.

Ned isn't telling Robert who he fathered Jon on though. He's reminding him. He'd told him years ago, probably when it happened. He can't just not tell him again when Robert already knows that Ned has told him before and is trying to remember the name. Robert knows the name, he can't be lied to here.

Still, non of those are reasons not to tell Jon, when Jon leaves for the Wall (or when Jon is told he will go to the Wall).

And Ned not saying a word also causes stress and serves to separate Ned and Cat. Catelyn says so herself. Ned not telling her the name might hurt even more than him telling her a name would.

Ned left before Jon left for the Wall.

And I disagree. Catelyn never says that the woman caused stress on their relationship, just that Jon's presence caused stress. The only time that it caused stress was when she asked him if it was Ashara Dayne, which was within the first month or so of them living together at Winterfell which doesn't exactly count. Ned told her to never ask him again and to focus on the fact that Jon was his, and after that Catelyn never asks and there's nothing that says there was any stress in their relationship caused by who she was. The fact that they ended up loving each other when they didn't have to as Catelyn had already birthed Ned an heir shows that Ned was right to not tell her. It didn't cause stress, and it helped them to grow closer together and eventually love each other.

Ned not telling his family who Jon's mother was caused his family to grow together. The children focused on the fact that Jon was their father's son, and Catelyn didn't grow jealous or resentful towards Ned.

[The Twinslayer]

The parallel implies something a little more than that too the fact that the Fell and Thorne were specifically guarding the king's heirs adds weight to the theory the Jon would be next in line after Viserys and thus that he was considered legitimate.

I am mostly with you up until this point. In TPATQ, Ser Rickard Thorne was protecting King Aegon II's heir, Prince Maelor. However, Ser Willas Fell was protecting Princess Jaehaera, who is described as simple, but more importantly, female. Jaehaera would be very, very far down the line of succession under the rules Aegon II was following, since his entire claim was based on the notion that neither a female nor someone claiming through a female could inherit the Iron Throne -- at least, unless all possible male claimants were out of the picture. So, for example, Aegon's brother Aemond would come before Jaehaera, as would Prince Daemon Targaryen. So Jaehaera is really not one of Aegon's heirs -- her claim is little (or no) better than that of a bastard.

Also, if Viserys was the last trueborn Targaryen male, and Jon was a bastard, Jon would still have a claim to be the heir of Viserys. It would reallly come down to whether Jon's claim as Rhaegar's bastard was considered stronger than Robert's claim through the female line, as the grandson of Princess Rhaelle -- keeping in mind that these KGs think Robert is a traitor. Which would lead to the same result -- it is okay for the KGs to stay and guard Jon even if he is a bastard.

Then, I would add one other point. Fell and Thorne leave King Aegon II because Lord Larys ordered them to do that. Your analysis suggests that they might have disobeyed the order if it had not involved protecting Aegon's children. I believe they would have obeyed the order even if it involved doing something else, e.g., protecting Aegon's mistress.

EDIT: a further point. Of course, the king goes without KG protection when he rides a dragon. For example, see the description in TPATQ of Rhaenyra's flight from Dragonstone to KL. There is no KG on the dragon with her, and when she lands she is greeted by Daemon, not by any KGs.

[markg171]

Going back to the patterned response of the 3KG's dialogue mentioned earlier, this is the boast section. They would not have defeated the rebels at the trident, they would not have kept Aerys on the Iron Throne, and they do (did) flee. Each boast is false, but it tells Ned of their confidence, and their adherence to the Kingsguard's duties even if all seems hopeless. Now, just as with "We were not there" and "far away", they are telling Ned (and us) here that they were not breaking their vows, but rather had another duty to perform – at the Tower of Joy – and they are not going to flee from that duty, whatever the cost. The point is that Fell and Thorne would have said they were not fleeing; the king and his family were fleeing, and the Kingsguard were accompanying them. Viserys fled, and had the Kingsguard gone to Dragonstone to be with him, they would not have been fleeing, they would have been doing their duty and accompanying him – then as now.

Not sure if this might go hand in hand with this, but at the Trident when the Dornish broke, Lewyn seemingly chose to stand his ground and continue fighting even though he was mortally wounded and his host had broken. He had been commanded to fight Robert forces by Aerys and even when his host broke, he kept fighting.

[The Twinslayer]

Hmmm... We can go by association here. Catelyn named Jon's mother a "ghost", grey is Stark color, Lyanna is the only woman with the statue in Winterfell crypts, and Jon is drawn to those crypts, so some sort of argument can be made.

What is the basis for saying that Lyanna is the only woman with a statue in the crypts?

Their footsteps rang off the stones and echoed in the vault overhead as they walked among the dead of House Stark. The Lords of Winterfell watched them pass...By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts . . . There were three tombs, side by side. Lord Rickard Stark, Ned's father, had a long, stern face. The stonemason had known him well. He sat with quiet dignity, stone fingers holding tight to the sword across his lap, but in life all swords had failed him. In two smaller sepulchres on either side were his children.

Doesn't this mean that all of the dead of House Stark are in the crypts, but only the ruling Lords have swords across their laps?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ned left before Jon left for the Wall.

When Jon said his final goodbye, the people at Winterfell were still trying to get everything together.. They left on the same day.. Ned could have spoken to Jon before, especially since the decision was made a fortnight before..

And I disagree. Catelyn never says that the woman caused stress on their relationship, just that Jon's presence caused stress. The only time that it caused stress was when she asked him if it was Ashara Dayne, which was within the first month or so of them living together at Winterfell which doesn't exactly count. Ned told her to never ask him again and to focus on the fact that Jon was his, and after that Catelyn never asks and there's nothing that says there was any stress in their relationship caused by who she was. The fact that they ended up loving each other when they didn't have to as Catelyn had already birthed Ned an heir shows that Ned was right to not tell her. It didn't cause stress, and it helped them to grow closer together and eventually love each other.

Ned not telling his family who Jon's mother was caused his family to grow together. The children focused on the fact that Jon was their father's son, and Catelyn didn't grow jealous or resentful towards Ned.

Jon's mother does cause a strain on the relationship of Catelyn and Ned

That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

“Perhaps not,” Catelyn said, “but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not.”

Ned turned away from her, back to the night. He stood staring out in the darkness, watching the moon and the stars perhaps, or perhaps the sentries on the wall.

Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

It definitly did not help them grow closer... and Ned not telling the name did not help Catelyn love him more...

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him.

Sure, Jon's presence caused tension too. I never said it didn't.

But the first quote shows that it remained on Catelyn's mind. Her shadow remains between them.

But I wasn't suggesting that Ned would have needed to tell Catelyn, if it had been Wylla, or his other children... He could have told Jon, and only Jon, at some time in the fortnight between the decision to send Jon to the Wall, and Jon actually going to the Wall. They were both at Winterfell that fortnight, after all.

[Mladen]

What is the basis for saying that Lyanna is the only woman with a statue in the crypts?

The statues were only made for Kings and Lords hence no woman ever got a statue in crypt because there weren't Queens in the North (as far as we know) and I don't even remember that at some point, from Thorren to Ned, there was Lady of Winterfell, acting in her own right (I know about "she-wolves")

[Mithras]

“Will it get cold now?” Shireen was a summer child, and had never known true cold.

“In time,” Cressen replied. “If the gods are good, they will grant us a warm autumn and bountiful harvests, so we might prepare for the winter to come.” The smallfolk said that a long summer meant an even longer winter, but the maester saw no reason to frighten the child with such tales.

Patchface rang his bells. “It is always summer under the sea,” he intoned. “The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

Shireen giggled. “I should like a gown of silver seaweed.”

“Under the sea, it snows up,” said the fool, “and the rain is dry as bone. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

“Will it truly snow?” the child asked.

“It will,” Cressen said. But not for years yet, I pray, and then not for long. “Ah, here is Pylos with the bird.”

Shireen gave a cry of delight. Even Cressen had to admit the bird made an impressive sight, white as snow and larger than any hawk, with the bright black eyes that meant it was no mere albino, but a truebred white raven of the Citadel. “Here,” he called. The raven spread its wings, leapt into the air, and flapped noisily across the room to land on the table beside him.

“I’ll see to your breakfast now,” Pylos announced. Cressen nodded. “This is the Lady Shireen,” he told the raven. The bird bobbed its pale head up and down, as if it were bowing. “Lady,” it croaked. “Lady.”

I like to take the bolded quote related to this:

“Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!”

When it snows up, the king should be revealed.

[H.P.]

Holy crap! I thought "v. 126" was an exagerration, but then I clicked on the spoiler tag in the first post...

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Holy crap! I thought "v. 126" was an exagerration, but then I clicked on the spoiler tag in the first post...

Welcome to the show R+L=J, @H.P.Lovecraft?

[H.P.]

double post

[Avalatis]

"Ser Willem is a good man and true"

Your alternative dialogue doesn't fit. More like the Kingsguard are honorable men and they were not going to dismiss someone they knew to be good. The large part of that exchange was the "but he's not of the Kingsguard". This implies that he doesn't have the same duties or obligations of the Kingsguard. Essentially this is a "While he's a good and true man, he doesn't have the same duties as we do". So while Willem is guarding what you propose to be the new Heir, the Kingsguard are of mind that their duties/vows require them to be elsewhere. This can only be explained by the news of Viserys being made heir did not reach them, or such an announcement was not made/made public, or the KG were being king makers which doesn't fit Hightower's character, or Rhaegar's prophecies were so convincing the KG decided that being king makers was the lesser of the two evils.

As has been pointed out by others in this thread (or previous versions). Ned calls him "Prince". Not Heir apparent, or King. There is no reaction by the Kingsguard to this slight.

", as if as well as talking to Ned, they are treading over old ground in their own discussions of where they should be and what they should be doing"

Perhaps, or the more likely explanation is they are stating what they believe to be the obvious. There were no emotional caveats in the writing of this scene to indicate disagreement or further meaning from the Kingsguard as they delivered these lines. It was more like they were stating facts as they saw them. Ser Willem is honorable, they would have stopped Jaime, they are Kingsguard that is why they were not at Dragonstone.

Your example of a Kingsguard meeting doesn't fit. In that case Kingsguard personally assigned and made sure of the King's safety before holding a meeting. They same cannot be stated for the TOJ sequence. While they might trust Ser Willem they had no way of knowing of the King's safety. If at least one of the three had been to dragonstone and seen the heir apparent/king then came to this meeting that would actually fit your example.

Your second example of disguising the king and having the KG go elsewhere as a form of protection still doesn't work. As Robert knows where Viserys is at. Everyone knows he's on Dragonstone. While he might not be in imminent danger, there is actually no way the Kingsguard could possibly know that unless *again* one of the Kingsguard had travelled to Dragonstone to ensure this. Hightower wouldn't just assume the new King was safe and go about his own business.

"This example directly contradicts the suggestion that the first duty of the Kingsguard demands that they must always ensure there is a member of the Kingsguard with the king."

I don't think anyone has stated that specifically. The first duty is to ensure the safety of the King. 99% of the time that would require the Kingsguard to remain in contact with the King (and 100% of the time that requires the KG to at least be able to assess the situation and not blindingly assume their presence would endanger the king). In that 1% chance that the presence of the Kingsguard actually reveals the location of the King to a threat that cannot be stopped by a sword arm then yes they would keep their distance to reduce the chance of a spy seeing them and giving away the location of the disguised King who looks like a peasant.

"Again, we see a direct parallel if Viserys was the king. In both cases, the King has fled from King's Landing to Dragonstone, but the Kingsguard aren't with him."

There is no direct parallel. The big caveat for one case is the King went to dragonstone without *anyone* knowing he went there. Secrecy was the key to ensuring his survival. In the TOJ sequence everyone and their mother knows where Viserys went. There is nothing at all indicating the Kingsguard at the TOJ felt Viserys was more safe without their presence.

"This introduction to the Kingsguard specifies that they devote their lives to defending the king's person and kin."

No. While the Kingsguard do defend the King's kin, there is nothing in this exchange to state that is what they were talking about. There are 3 kingsguard available, nothing you have brought up suggests they couldn't guard the King's kin with 2 Kingsguard. But realistically if there was only one Kingsguard at that tower and they had to choose between guarding the kin of the King or the King himself there is absolutely no doubt they would go to the King.

"This of course highlights an obvious flaw in Gerold Hightower's claim – of course the Kingsguard would flee if the king was fleeing and ordered them to go with him. So why does Hightower tell Ned this, when history says otherwise?"

Because the heir apparent and King in their eyes was in the TOJ? And they do not flee from their duty (which is the implication there).

"They would not have defeated the rebels at the trident, they would not have kept Aerys on the Iron Throne, and they do (did) flee."

There is no way for you to know that. Is it unlikely? Perhaps. It's possible with the three Kingsguard with Rhaegar he wouldn't have died and perhaps Robert would have which could have turned the course of the battle. They also could have provided Aerys with better council about trusting Tywin. And they haven't fled, as they haven't moved throughout all of this. And if the King is in the tower, they are actually sticking to their duty.

"Viserys fled, and had the Kingsguard gone to Dragonstone to be with him, they would not have been fleeing, they would have been doing their duty and accompanying him – then as now. "

This whole segment of your essay seems confusing. What are you even trying to claim here? That the Kingsguard are boastful liars?

"and Hightower would not be determined to go to Dragonstone, he would be determined to whatever seemed right."

You just stated he was a stickler for duty and honorable. You then dismissed this by stating without support that he would "do what is right". Ignoring the contradiction; there is nothing to support that leaving the King/heir apparent without Kingsguard protection is "right".

"he wouldn't want to go to Dragonstone to support Viserys, effectively conceding defeat to Aerys, rather than following Rhaegar's plan"

Dayne did seem like he might be more of an idealist, but this is purely speculation.

"I suspect we will find that he was a rather more intelligent man than slow, dependable Hightower"

No one has stated Hightower was slow or not intelligent. But even if Hightower was "slow" that means duty bound/honor would be even more rigid.

While the work you put into your essay is impressive you went about it with a preconceived notion and outcome that you desired. Instead of using the text to see where the evidence leads, you had a conclusion determined and tried to find text to support it. Some of your speculation on characters seems to contradict what Ned and Jaime thought of the Kingsguard. Without that speculation the argument does not stand.

[H.P.]

Welcome to the show R+L=J, @H.P.Lovecraft?

Thank you! It seems cozy here, I might stick around.

[markg171]

When Jon said his final goodbye, the people at Winterfell were still trying to get everything together.. They left on the same day.. Ned could have spoken to Jon before, especially since the decision was made a fortnight before..

Jon's mother does cause a strain on the relationship of Catelyn and Ned

That brought a bitter twist to Neds mouth. Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a Kings Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.

Perhaps not, Catelyn said, but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not.

Ned turned away from her, back to the night. He stood staring out in the darkness, watching the moon and the stars perhaps, or perhaps the sentries on the wall.

Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandons place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

It definitly did not help them grow closer... and Ned not telling the name did not help Catelyn love him more...

Whoever Jons mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him.

Sure, Jon's presence caused tension too. I never said it didn't.

But the first quote shows that it remained on Catelyn's mind. Her shadow remains between them.

But I wasn't suggesting that Ned would have needed to tell Catelyn, if it had been Wylla, or his other children... He could have told Jon, and only Jon, at some time in the fortnight between the decision to send Jon to the Wall, and Jon actually going to the Wall. They were both at Winterfell that fortnight, after all.

Catelyn is talking about not sending Jon away there. Not that he didn't tell her the name of the mother

[Lion of Lorath]

So here's a cool little thing, intentional or not:

An earl /ɜrl/^[1] is a member of the nobility. The title is Anglo-Saxon, akin to the Scandinavian form jarl, and meant "chieftain", particularly a chieftain set to rule a territory in a king's stead.

The above comes from Wikipedia. Apparently "jarl" means "chieftain." Jarl was killed by the ice. I foresee a Jon-Val situation where Jon figuratively steps into Jarl's shoes as her new lover.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Earls and Jarls once were different titles for kings. Over time it came that more jarls submitted to kings than the other way round, so today in the course of time, a jarl ended up below a king.

[IceFire125]

Some Daeron and Rhaegar similarities/parallels from Feast, Sam II.

And did GRRM declare a subtle hint that Rhaegar was innocent of raping Lyanna? I think so. ^_^

Fair-haired and hazel-eyed, the handsome young singer (Daeron) out of Eastwatch looked more like some dark prince than a black brother.

...

Even Dareon would be happier. He had always claimed to be innocent of the rape that sent him to the Wall, insisting that he belonged at some lord’s court, singing for his supper. Now he would have that chance. Jon had named him a recruiter, to take the place of a man named Yoren, who had vanished and was presumed dead. His task would be to travel the Seven Kingdoms, singing of the valor of the Night’s Watch, and from time to time returning to the Wall with new recruits.

...

Dareon had not been much of a swordsman, Sam knew from their days training under Alliser Thorne, but he had a beautiful voice. “Honey poured over thunder,” Maester Aemon had once called it. He played woodharp and fiddle too, and even wrote his own songs

-----

“Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance.”

[Alia of the knife]

So here's a cool little thing, intentional or not:

An earl /ɜrl/^[1] is a member of the nobility. The title is Anglo-Saxon, akin to the Scandinavian form jarl, and meant "chieftain", particularly a chieftain set to rule a territory in a king's stead.

The above comes from Wikipedia. Apparently "jarl" means "chieftain." Jarl was killed by the ice. I foresee a Jon-Val situation where Jon figuratively steps into Jarl's shoes as her new lover.

A Jarl.

http://vikings.wikia.com/wiki/Jarl_Borg?file=Jarl_c1.png

[imaginepageant]

“Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance.”

What chapter is this passage from?

[JonSnow4President]

What chapter is this passage from?

Pretty sure it's a Dany chapter after Barristan is revealed.