Sansa will marry Jon Snow

[LongRider]

Yes, absolutely. A bastard Kingdom for a bastard. It would make sense to lead his people home again once they'd survived. A Kingdom where they'd never have to kneel and could worship whatever tree they like!

There is something else too. Ygritte taught him that women can have their own choices and feelings when it comes to love and relationships. Jon knew true love with Ygritte, so why would he settle for a cold arranged marriage?

[Le Cygne]

The problem is getting too far off the written page. He's telling a story, he hammers things in with subtle references, but you can't lose sight of the actual story.

There has to be a story. To prefer a tourney in another story over the tourney Sansa actually watched in her own story - her father's tourney - makes no sense. If anything, he's saying, pay attention to SANSA.

She watches Sandor defeat Baratheon, Lannister, and Tyrell. Littlefinger bets against Sandor and loses. She thinks of kissing Sandor while kissing Sweetrobin. Boom, suitors, including Sandor.

This is on the actual pages of Sansa's story. She's thinking of kissing Sandor. She never once thinks of Jon romantically. She directly places Sandor in the marriage bed. Nothing for Jon.

Sansa didn't think of Jon that day until Myranda brought him up. She has been actively thinking about another bastard, quite frequently, Mya Stone. Is she going to marry Mya?

And there's an actual parallel, unmistakable, in her last chapter, Catelyn going up the mountain thinks Mya reminds her of Sansa. Sansa is going down the mountain with Mya.

And there are callbacks to the rescue scene, Sandor put her back on her saddle when she's falling, now she clings to her saddle, and won't fall, she's a woman now. She won't close her eyes. Like she did before!

Catelyn observes Mya was born on the wrong side of the blanket to marry Mychel, because she's a bastard and he is highborn. Instead, Lothor is the one who loves Mya.

Sansa observes Alayne was born on the wrong side of the blanket to marry Loras, because she's a bastard and he is highborn. Instead, Sandor is the one who loves her, and she pretends to kiss Sandor, that matters.

(Also earlier, she thought Lothor was Sandor, when he was rescuing her.)

[LongRider]

Now, there's a number of reasons why people don't like this theory. I think I can categorize, and refute each of the major points of why this theory, with its amount of foreshadowing, doesn't get "official-status" other theories do, like R+L=J.

1)Jon's a fan-favorite, Sansa is a fan-favorite-to-hate

2)People are applying modern cultural expectations to the theory, rather than Medieval Era expectations

3)Foreshadowing and hints get ignored

1)Jon's a fan-favorite, Sansa is a fan-favorite-to-hate

~~~~snip~~~ There is plenty of fan love for both Jon and Sansa. Also plenty of fan hate for Jon. This is not a valid point for anything.

2)People are applying modern cultural expectations to the theory, rather than Medieval Era expectations

******Fans do this with many situations in this series. This is not unique or unexpected.

3)People ignore the foreshadowing

********there is no foreshadowing of this theory.

Let's look at the foreshadowing of this theory, shall we.

1)Jon and Sansa are cousins, and not siblings. Pretty well established at this point, so the marriage is a possibility.

****as far as they know currently, they are siblings. Sansa has told us she doesn't want to be married for her claim. What about that 'foreshadowing'?

2)The Dunk and Egg Novels. The daughter of Sir Ashford's five champions all martch up with so far Sansa's suitors in ASOIAF

***** no they don't, where it the Tyrells and the Arryns?

3)Sansa's dreams in the first novel (of some hero cutting off Janos Slynt's head) and Jon being the one to do the deed.

*****Sansa has no knowledge of this, nor does she say she would marry that hero! LOL!

4)Sansa wanting so badly to go back to Winterfell, and Jon wrestling with the decision of being the heir to Winterfell (Via Stannis)

**********Jon rejected Stannis's offer

5)Finally, Sansa and Jon's stories parallel each other. Sansa starts off as a trueborn daughter of a great Lord, while Jon starts off as a bastard, who is very gloomy about his situation. Then, by ADWD their situations have reversed. Sansa has lost a great deal of her autonomy and now has to masquerade as the bastard daughter of Littlefinger while Jon as has become essentially a Lord in his own right, and even gets the nickname "Lord Snow" and has gained a great deal of autonomy. During Sansa's time as Alayne, she even thinks about Jon in a number of scenes.

**** Sansa is fugitive in hiding under an assumed identity. Jon is not a fugitive nor in hiding. If R+L= J is revealed, Jon may reject it and go on as Jon Snow, we don't know yet how he will react. Also, he's committed to the NW and the coming conflict with the Others.

You can already see in this thread people trying to either refute these points or ignore them outright. The champions at Ashford Tourney has been refuted weakly with the "But Joffrey's not a real Baratheon, so it doesn't matter, CASE CLOSED", even though every other suitor or betrothal lines up. And the fact that Harry Harrdying is Sansa's fourth suitor, and such a minor name would appear elsewhere from GRRM, is simply too much coincidence for this to be simply random conjecture. Furthermore, simply because Joffrey is not a true Baratheon does not mean this foreshadowing means squat. Remember, the only characters who know Joffrey (and Tommen and Myrcella) are true bastards are several of the Lannisters and Stannis, and everyone else knows it just as hearsay.

*****Sansa attended the Hand's Tourney and had her own champions there, didn't you notice? That scene was full of foreshadowing for Sansa's future.

I'd like to also make the point that there's a great deal of readers out there that many manage to miss a lot of themes of the novels, which is probably why the parallel themes of Sansa and Jon don't get noted.

********Quite the assumption there, if 'missing the themes' means, missing what you see, then yes, I missed your themes and read the actual story instead.

[Crazy Joe Wilson]

The problem is getting too far off the written page. He's telling a story, he hammers things in with subtle references, but you can't lose sight of the actual story.

There has to be a story. To prefer a tourney in another story over the tourney Sansa actually watched in her own story makes no sense. If anything, he's saying, pay attention to SANSA.

She watches Sandor defeat Baratheon, Lannister, and Tyrell. Littlefinger bets against Sandor and loses. She thinks of kissing Sandor while kissing Sweetrobin. Boom, suitors, including Sandor.

This is on the actual pages of Sansa's story. She's thinking of kissing him. She never once thinks of Jon Snow romantically. She directly places Sandor in the marriage bed. Nothing for Jon.

Sansa didn't think of Jon that day until Myranda brought him up. She has been actively thinking about another bastard, quite frequently, Mya Stone. Is she going to marry Mya?

And there's an actual parallel, unmistakeable, in her last chapter, Catelyn going up the mountain thinks Mya reminds her of Sansa. Sansa is going down the mountain with Mya.

And there are callbacks to the rescue scene, Sandor put her back on her saddle when she's falling, now she clings to her saddle, and won't fall, she's a woman now. She won't close her eyes. Like she did before!

Catelyn observes Mya was born on the wrong side of the blanket to marry Mychel, because she's a bastard and he is highborn. Instead, Lothor is the one who loves Mya.

Sansa observes Alayne was born on the wrong side of the blanket to marry Loras, because she's a bastard and he is highborn. Instead, pretends to kiss Sandor, that matters.

The problem with Sansa and Sandor is that their stories are going in different directions, if they are ever to cross again. Sandor is either dead, or a cripple on the Silent Isle, whereas Sansa is more than likely going to be heading back to Winterfell, where Jon Snow is more than likely also heading.

Furthermore, while Sansa is yes crushing on Sandor, there's a couple reasons for that. Sansa was starting to mature while at King's Landing, and Sandor was really the only man she knew there to some small degree protected her. To Sansa's maturing thoughts on Knights, Sandor is really the best there is, and the only man she can really identify as good and protecting at the moment. Sandor also showed interest in her, although whether it was a hateful "I am so ugly and Knights are terrible and you used to think Knights were so great I am going to prove you wrong" or not is hard to say. Given that he tells Arya he should have raped her when he had the chance (He is dying and delirious while saying this, but still), to think the two of them would end up together is a bit odd.

With that said, storyline-wise their paths really have not been set up to cross again. Sansa seems to only bring up Sandor in the romantic sense when she is with other men (or boys) because that is the only man right now that she sees as in a tortured way good. But she's headed to Winterfell, to possibly run into another "good warrior guy", so who knows how the new Sansa and new Jon will interact when they do meet?

[LongRider]

~~~~snip~~~

With that said, storyline-wise their paths really have not been set up to cross again. Sansa seems to only bring up Sandor in the romantic sense when she is with other men (or boys) because that is the only man right now that she sees as in a tortured way good. But she's headed to Winterfell, to possibly run into another "good warrior guy", so who knows how the new Sansa and new Jon will interact when they do meet?

Sansa may be heading for WF, eventually, but currently is staying in the Vale. When and if she leaves the Vale her getting back to WF may be as difficult as Arya getting to RR in ASOS. It may be a long time before Jon gets back to WF as well. So saying that Sansa's chances of meeting Jon again before she meets Sandor again have no basis. Sansa has more of chance to meet Sandor than Jon.

[Le Cygne]

Looking at the story through 5/7 of the series and finding ways to dismiss what's on the written pages is not what any author intends. The author said she'd be thinking of kissing him in the next book, too. Why does he keep going there, if the story is over?

And Sansa's story is not about what the reader wants, it's about Sansa wants. The story is about Sansa, not the reader. Also, that's a misrepresentation of the scene. Sansa sees Sandor as her protector, she thought he was there to rescue her once again, at the Fingers.

[Woman of War]

There is something else too. Ygritte taught him that women can have their own choices and feelings when it comes to love and relationships. Jon knew true love with Ygritte, so why would he settle for a cold arranged marriage?

This unfortunately may not be an argument, neither for Sansa nor for Jon.

They both would know what Robb got for his decision and as sweet as it might be to us modern readers if the protagonists madly fall in love and sink into the straw together this might be nothing than the cheesy projection which in fact never happened in history. As soon as leaders took their responsibility seriously they were forced to make a political decision about marriage.

This of course won't have much to do with forcing anyone into a marriage within the books. I guess Martin would write it the way that the characters concerned make the conscious and willing decision to enter a political union for the sake of alliances and first of all in order to secure peace after a horrible war. Erotic attraction may come or not and I think that the story of Ned and Cat has bee described for a reason by Martin.

Now I simply do not see why Sansa should be a clever choice for Jon: he has the love and support of Rickon or Bran already, he would not have to marry the sister of the Lord of Winterfell for it, he is one of them!

The dynastic marriage might though come into play with another house. And some people hate me for it, I do not care, but the most sense makes keeping upright the Lannister/Stark marriage betwwen Sansa and Tyrion. And there would be no element of forced in it if both agree to stay together for political reasons and to finally make the best of it.

I guess the arrangement that makes sense for Jon as a king would be a daughter of House Martell. Or dany if that is the way to avoid a confict between two claimants to the throne, buy one, get one for free.

Now it is rather unlikely that all of the bunch, Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Sansa will still be alive in the end and so we can quietly lean back and wait who will be taken out of the equation by Martin.

[Taenqyrhae]

One also has to question the reasons GRRM has kept Sansa as a POV character so long. It stands to reason that all the characters who have been POV characters throughout the story have an important role to play in the overarching plot of the series. Three Stark children get POVs - Arya, Sansa, and Bran. We know why Bran is important, and Arya's character arc is pointing her in a direction where it's easy to see how she could have a big role, but what is Sansa there for? At first, it seems like she is there to provide a POV from Kings Landing so we can see what's going on there, but we get POVs from other characters in Kings Landing later in the series. I'm not knocking her chapters or saying nothing important happens in her POVs, but it is seeming more and more that the politics of Kings Landing and the Iron Throne are becoming increasingly unimportant in the battles that we as readers know are going to happen.

Note also that Sansa has kept her virginity through a lot of events that would snatch that away from any other female characters in the series. The author's intent seems to be to remind us that she is a strong potential bride for SOMEONE. She's abused and demeaned by a twisted and cruel teenage king, she's surrounded by evil characters, she's married to one of the biggest horndogs in the series and an admitted rapist, she's the travelling companion for an unscrupulous pimp who is obsessed with her mother, and still Sansa is a virgin. Why does she have this plot armor on her hymen? I think who she marries is going to be extremely important in the long run, and who could it be to make it worth keeping her POVs in every single book? I think that there is foreshadowing that "Who Sansa Stark married" is supposed to be an important fact in the history books that the maesters are going to be writing about the events of the series in future centuries. Which characters appear to be the most important to the future of Westeros? There's Tyrian, potential dragon rider and adviser to the Dragon Queen, but it looks like he may be on the side attacking Westeros. Besides, from her first chapters Sansa has been talking about how ugly he is, which pretty much guaranteed she was going to marry him but now that this has happened it doesn't seem like anything will result from it. There is Aegon, but I don't think he is going to survive very long - if he was that important, I don't think his character would be rolled into Gendry's in the show. Dorne's best candidate dies smelling like hot dogs in a bed in Meereen. Most of the players up north aren't going to survive much longer or are ruled out for other reasons. Who's left? Jon Snow-Targaryan, who could end up either ruling all of Westeros from the Iron Throne, or just the king of a new northern Kingdom, or maybe King Beyond the Wall. It makes sense that the story of his bride would be a big part of the series.

[LongRider]

Woman of War said "The dynastic marriage might though come into play with another house. And some people hate me for it, I do not care, but the most sense makes keeping upright the Lannister/Stark marriage betwwen Sansa and Tyrion. And there would be no element of forced in it if both agree to stay together for political reasons and to finally make the best of it."

LongRider replies: :lmao:

[lady jellybean]

Why would george do that to poor jon? Hes attractive to girls with spirite and sass. Vapid sansa would bore him to death.

Sansa is almost going to marry fake ageon and then die. If she dies saving bran, jon, arya or rickon that would be so cool. Hopefully she doesnt murder SR but I can see her doing it. Evil sansa sounds interesting at least.

[LongRider]

One also has to question the reasons GRRM has kept Sansa as a POV character so long.

*****Yeah! Why hasn't Martin killed off this silly tart already!

~~~snip~~~. Why does she have this plot armor on her hymen?

**** I have to admit, this is a great sentence.

I think who she marries is going to be extremely important in the long run, and who could it be to make it worth keeping her POVs in every single book?

****** the possibility that she won't marry is also just as strong. Beside, the maester's already have a husband to write about; Tyrion.

~~~snop~~~

Most of the players up north aren't going to survive much longer or are ruled out for other reasons. Who's left? Jon Snow-Targaryan, who could end up either ruling all of Westeros from the Iron Throne, or just the king of a new northern Kingdom, or maybe King Beyond the Wall. It makes sense that the story of his bride would be a big part of the series.

****** Currently, Jon Snow isn't standing. He's lying face down in the snow, bleeding. I don't think he's dead myself, but whatever. Once his stabbing is resolved, I guess he'll have the super powers needed to break through Sansa's hymen plot armor. Hoo Rah!

[Ser Pounce FTW]

The more Sansa learns about the game, the more it is likely she will be in a political union or no union at all. Despite all her daydreaming about the Hound, expecting anything more than a romp in the hay for the two seems very unrealistic. The series really doesn't seem to be setting up a Romeo&Juliet romance no matter how many BatB references are included based on how the majority of couples who follow their hearts meet disaster. The couples that are more level headed about their marital responsibilities seem to have more success. That doesn't mean being with someone you hate but he does seem to be supporting couples that are being strategic and logical.

[Taenqyrhae]

Why would george do that to poor jon? Hes attractive to girls with spirite and sass. Vapid sansa would bore him to death.

Vapid Sansa would, but Evil Sansa might be appealing. She's changed a lot and could go further down that path. They are developing along the same lines, making some of the same questionable moral choices (see how both Sansa and Jon are involved in situations where young, seemingly orphaned children are at peril), both learning to compromise their morality and use people as cyvass pieces. If Sansa continues down her current path without going too overboard on the dark gray behavior, she'd make an excellent bride for Lord Snow.

[Crazy Joe Wilson]

quote="longrider"] There is plenty of fan love for both Jon and Sansa. Also plenty of fan hate for Jon. This is not a valid point for anything.

[LongRider]

Vapid Sansa would, but Evil Sansa might be appealing. She's changed a lot and could go further down that path. They are developing along the same lines, making some of the same questionable moral choices (see how both Sansa and Jon are involved in situations where young, seemingly orphaned children are at peril), both learning to compromise their morality and use people as cyvass pieces. If Sansa continues down her current path without going too overboard on the dark gray behavior, she'd make an excellent bride for Lord Snow.

Too bad that won't happen.

[Le Cygne]

Once his stabbing is resolved, I guess he'll have the super powers needed to break through Sansa's hymen plot armor. Hoo Rah!

:lol:

Of course the "hymen plot armor" could have something to do with to the bloody cloak she keeps bringing up over and over again. Belonging to the one she's thinking of kissing, dreaming of in bed with her, associating with marriage. Classic red on white consummation symbolism.

[lady jellybean]

Jon wouldnt like evil sansa anymore than vapid sansa. And he wont do anything till her marriage to tryion is handled. Personally I think george is going to have tyrion and sansa stay married to each other.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The dynastic marriage might though come into play with another house. And some people hate me for it, I do not care, but the most sense makes keeping upright the Lannister/Stark marriage betwwen Sansa and Tyrion. And there would be no element of forced in it if both agree to stay together for political reasons and to finally make the best of it.

That would make sense for Tyrion and House Lannister, but not for Sansa and House Stark.

What would the Starks get out of it? Serious trouble with their bannermen, having to support an utterly despised Tyrion the Kinslayer at Casterly Rock, no chance for payback.

What would they gain for that?

The Ashford Champions

1. Lyonel Baratheon
2. Leo Tyrell
3. Tybolt Lannister
4. Humfrey Hardyng
5. Prince Valarr Targaryen

Sansa's suitors so far

1. Sansa's first betrothed to Joffrey Baratheon
2. Sansa's then planned to be wed to Willas Tyrell
3. Sansa's married to Tyrion Lannister
4. Sansa is inoffcially betrothed to Robert Arryn
5. Sansa's now being betrothed to Harry Hardyng

Fixed.

[LongRider]

Le Cygne, on 16 Jan 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Or you could look at the tourney Sansa actually attended, her own father's tourney.

Sansa watched Sandor defeat:

Baratheon

Lannister

Tyrell ("The day is yours")

Also Littlefinger bet against him and lost.

And hey, let's fit Sweetrobin in there, she's pretending to kiss Sandor when she kisses him.

Sansa "knew the Hound would win" and Ned said she "had the right of it" and she remembered: Hehad been the champion in her father's tourney, Sansa remembered.

Just saying, if tourneys are foreshadowing, why not the one she watched?

Boo, you're making too much sense! That's not theory material! Why think that an event early on in the series that Sansa actually attended and that several characters that are to play roles in her storyline were present at or participated in, which was described in detail in her and her father's POV, would foreshadow something about her future, when you can speculate that a minor detail from an event 90 years earlier attended by a random minor character with no similarities to Sansa other than gender and age and a situation nothing like hers, was really foreshadowing major developments in Sansa's storyline in a very contrived way where you have to overlook some details to make it work?

(Otherwise known as Reverse Occam's Razor.)

**********************************************************

Earlier in the thread. Guess you missed it.

[Fox fur cloak]

Kind of random, but I'll point out that Jon and Theon were sort of in the same position relating to the Starks, and Theon thought he would marry Sansa.

Edit: Theon soon realized that he was just a ward and would never be "good enough" to marry a Stark, which contributes to his growing jealousy of the Starks and his desire to be one of them. Jon is similar in that he doesn't feel himself worthy enough to be a Stark and is always looked down on for being a bastard. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Jon's reasoning for not viewing Sansa romantically might have been more about him not expecting to ever marry a highborn girl, rather than an "ew, incest" reflex. (Also the fact that he was 14 and she was 11 when last they met, whereas Theon was 19 and actually thinking about girls that way. I don't remember Jon thinking about any women until Ygritte came and forced herself on him, bless her soul.)