Sansa will marry Jon Snow

[Woman of War]

:bs:

Being forced into a wedding with the family that killed your family is f'ng minor? Seriously??? Nothing says 'lets be friends' like having your sister married at sword points while she's a hostage of the family that killed your father, and later murdered your brother and step mother. Will make for some interesting conversations and lotsa laffs over a few pints.

Tyrion has stopped to count himself as member of that family though he will have a hard time to overcome that imprinting.

Yes, in the end Sansa or Tyrion being married or not will be minor compared to what else will happen.

You may be especially interested in Sansa's fate and so that story line may have a special meaning to you.

Just like Tyrion's fate is of special interest to me since I root for him to get an emotionally satisfying ending. But for the bigger picture in Martinworld our personal likes won't shape the outcome of the story.

To return to topic: I guess for the development of the story the Jon/Tyrion relationship will be more important than Jon's relationship to Sansa.

There might be a sad Aerys/Rhaella ending for Jon and Sansa, history repeating itself. But wouldn't Jon, if he becomes King, profit far more from linking himself with any other powerful house since he has siblings in the North who would certainly support him. He needs not marry into House Stark, he is one of them via Lyanna, just as much as Rickon who would probably Lord there.

[Ser Duncan The Average]

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife. :P

Unfortunately Jon could not have made Sansa the offer of his hand in any possible way that would have tempted her to accept it. In fact, Sansa had not known Jon a month before she felt that he was the last man in the world that she could ever be prevailed on to marry. :P

P.S. Dammit, now I have to sit down and read pride and prejudice again.

[LongRider]

Tyrion may think that he's no longer a Lannister, but no one else will forget it. Starting with the Second Sons. I don't see Tyrion becoming more important to Jon than his siblings.

Keep trying. ;)

[jarl the climber]

Tyrion has stopped to count himself as member of that family though he will have a hard time to overcome that imprinting.

Yes, in the end Sansa or Tyrion being married or not will be minor compared to what else will happen.

You may be especially interested in Sansa's fate and so that story line may have a special meaning to you.

Just like Tyrion's fate is of special interest to me since I root for him to get an emotionally satisfying ending. But for the bigger picture in Martinworld our personal likes won't shape the outcome of the story.

To return to topic: I guess for the development of the story the Jon/Tyrion relationship will be more important than Jon's relationship to Sansa.

There might be a sad Aerys/Rhaella ending for Jon and Sansa, history repeating itself. But wouldn't Jon, if he becomes King, profit far more from linking himself with any other powerful house since he has siblings in the North who would certainly support him. He needs not marry into House Stark, he is one of them via Lyanna, just as much as Rickon who would probably Lord there.

It really doesn't make any sense. Sansa could marry Wilas., Jon could marry Arrianne or a Sand Snake, Marge could marry Edmure and Rickon could marry Shireen. Maybe Sansa marries Harry and Dany marries Wilas. Maybe Arriane could marry Wilas or Harry and Jon marries Marge. I guess Arya could always marry Trystane. Whatever the case with four llving cousins, including Bran, and one Uncle through the Tullys, who would be a good match, it would make more sense to follow your strategy than a Jon/Sansa marriage. Granted Sansa and Edmure are still married but I'm not sure if either of those marriages pans out.

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

It really doesn't make any sense. Sansa could marry Wilas., Jon could marry Arrianne or a Sand Snake, Marge could marry Edmure and Rickon could marry Shireen. Maybe Sansa marries Harry and Dany marries Wilas. Maybe Arriane could marry Wilas or Harry and Jon marries Marge. I guess Arya could always marry Trystane. Whatever the case with four llving cousins, including Bran, and one Uncle through the Tullys, who would be a good match, it would make more sense to follow your strategy than a Jon/Sansa marriage. Granted Sansa and Edmure are still married but I'm not sure if either of those marriages pans out.

I always though that Jon marrying Val or Arianne was a great situation. The former can ease thw transition of wildlings into the realm while Arianne could settle the slight the Martells feel over the Elia/Rhaegar/Lyanna thing.

Jon is literally half-Stark. If Rickon or Sansa are installed as the rulers of Winterfell, then they have a family obligation to help Jon out during the 2nd long night. Im sorry to be mean and im going to get blasted for this, but people wanting jon with Sansa/Arya are perturbed and stuck in the realm of fanfiction and their ideal fantasy of a reincarnated ned and catelyn.

I can see Jon/Daenerys happening, ev3n though it is incest they do not even know each other.

[Arya Targaryen]

Im sorry to be mean and im going to get blasted for this, but people wanting jon with Sansa/Arya are perturbed and stuck in the realm of fanfiction and their ideal fantasy of a reincarnated ned and catelyn.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the last thing I want is a reincarnated Ned/Cat. I never really liked Cat (and it has nothing to do with how mean she was to Jon - that bit I can understand), and even though I liked Ned, I never saw Jon as Ned's reincarnation.

The only reason why I thought Jon and Arya might come together is simply that they would be happy with each other characterwise. But maybe that's the exact reason why it won't happen.

I've read something on these boards about marriage strategies by someone, in another topic, long ago, and I actually agree with it.

It basically said that in peacetime you marry outside your closest neighborhood/castle/family/country, you make allies, that can help you through more difficult times. But in times of war and trouble you marry within your closest circles - within the family (uniting different branches, etc). I'm not saying Jon or Sansa or Arya will do it, but I certainly see logic in it.

[Annara Snow]

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the last thing I want is a reincarnated Ned/Cat. I never really liked Cat (and it has nothing to do with how mean she was to Jon - that bit I can understand), and even though I liked Ned, I never saw Jon as Ned's reincarnation.

The only reason why I thought Jon and Arya might come together is simply that they would be happy with each other characterwise. But maybe that's the exact reason why it won't happen.

I've read something on these boards about marriage strategies by someone, in another topic, long ago, and I actually agree with it.

It basically said that in peacetime you marry outside your closest neighborhood/castle/family/country, you make allies, that can help you through more difficult times. But in times of war and trouble you marry within your closest circles - within the family (uniting different branches, etc). I'm not saying Jon or Sansa or Arya will do it, but I certainly see logic in it.

You got it backwards. From what we've seen, in peacetime, Great Houses tend to intermarry with their own bannerme4n, mostly. In times of war or turbulent power struggle, they try to make allies with each other, and intermarry with each other or other families whose alliance they need - so you get marriages like Margaery/Renly or Margaery/Joffrey or Tommen, or Jon Arryn/Lysa Tully, which Hoster directly blackmailed Jon into by making it a condition for engaging in the Rebellion; that's why all those betrothals, marriages and between Starks/Tullys/Baratheons/Arryns/Lannisters (planned, never came to pass) in later years of Aerys' rule look so conspicuous.

Marrying within the family only seems to happen because of the wish to unite various branches when there's danger there could be inheritance struggles, or more specifically, when male family members with lesser claims are trying to nullify the stronger claims of women. (Why is it that there was never a ruling lady in Winterfell, I wonder? Does that have something to do with the Stark-Stark marriages, perhaps? Like those two marriages in the same generation between nieces with a better claim and uncles with lesser claims? Hmmmmm. Naturally, that particular aspect of the family tree poses some questions on the exact circumstances of those marriages.)

So, it would make sense politically - but only under the assumption that Jon, Arya, Sansa, Rickon, Bran are not a strong family unit with any loyalty to each other to begin with, and will be actively fighting against each other for inheritance, or that Jon will be a greedy fuck trying to use his sister's claim to get Winterfell. Does that sound anything like the characters we know?

[Dolorous22]

As of yet there is no real 'dynasty' to speak of. All the Targs have right now is history. If they still held lands (admittedly there may be Targ lands in Westeros in the future books) it would make sense to consolidate power. A newly formed Stark power base would benefit more from an allegiance with house Arryn (as LF is planning) or my personal fave, Willas Tyrell.

It's not the worst shout, at all. It's a wonderfully provocative theory that isn't unprecedented either. I can imagine them meeting one another again and it's as if 'they're seeing each other for the first time'. With them both grown-up and all. Again, I just wonder if it would be pointless? Jon picked the wall and by extension a war against the others not the GOT. The best way for these characters to come together, for me, would be for Sansa to play the game, win her lands back and aid Jon in his fight against the long night.

I see Jon more likely becoming a King beyond the wall than the heir of WF.

[LongRider]

Arya and Jon as King and Queen? Hmmm, don't think so:

And how she smiled and how she laughed,

the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him,

no featherbed for me.

I'll wear a crown of golden leaves,

and bind my hair with grass,

But can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Don't get me wrong, I like what the Lady Ashford's story has to say about Sansa, "The Game" and Westeros's violent patriarchal values, but I don't foresee at all how she could end up betrothed to Sansa in a way that isn't reaching in term of probability

[Le Cygne]

Arya and Jon as King and Queen? Hmmm, don't think so:

And how she smiled and how she laughed,

the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him,

no featherbed for me.

I'll wear a crown of golden leaves,

and bind my hair with grass,

But can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

The song featured in an Arya and Gendry scene. It's almost like these long, detailed stories with Arya and Gendry, and Sansa and Sandor, never happened at all. Or they happened for no reason at all. Just to prime Arya and Sansa to marry their brother or some random guy for some random political reason that doesn't even make sense.

Also, they don't have anyone to answer to anymore. And of course, there's Lyanna, their aunt, who followed her heart (so many of us think). One might consider the possibility that Arya and Sansa might follow their hearts. And there are actual references in their own stories, like the tourney SANSA watched, as in, her own story.

[LongRider]

LongRider, on 18 Jan 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

The song featured in an Arya and Gendry scene. It's almost like these long, detailed stories with Arya and Gendry, and Sansa and Sandor, never happened at all. Or they happened for no reason at all. Just to prime Arya and Sansa to marry their brother or some random guy for some random political reason that doesn't even make sense.

This song tells us much about Arya. She is a free spirit and may never marry. That doesn't mean she won't have a love life of course, but on her own terms. Jon Snow and an arranged marriage (to him or anyone else) is not in the cards for her.

[Le Cygne]

This song tells us much about Arya. She is a free spirit and may never marry. That doesn't mean she won't have a love life of course, but on her own terms. Jon Snow and an arranged marriage (to him or anyone else) is not in the cards for her.

And the same with Sansa. She's writing her own story.

[Arya Targaryen]

You got it backwards. From what we've seen, in peacetime, Great Houses tend to intermarry with their own bannerme4n, mostly. In times of war or turbulent power struggle, they try to make allies with each other, and intermarry with each other or other families whose alliance they need - so you get marriages like Margaery/Renly or Margaery/Joffrey or Tommen, or Jon Arryn/Lysa Tully, which Hoster directly blackmailed Jon into by making it a condition for engaging in the Rebellion; that's why all those betrothals, marriages and between Starks/Tullys/Baratheons/Arryns/Lannisters (planned, never came to pass) in later years of Aerys' rule look so conspicuous.

...

So, it would make sense politically - but only under the assumption that Jon, Arya, Sansa, Rickon, Bran are not a strong family unit with any loyalty to each other to begin with, and will be actively fighting against each other for inheritance, or that Jon will be a greedy fuck trying to use his sister's claim to get Winterfell. Does that sound anything like the characters we know?

The Stark/Tully/Baratheon marriages were planned in peacetime. Marg and Renly/Joff/Tommen were done during the war, but was it really successful? The real point of these marriages was missing: a child. Without that, your allies may just kill you and marry to the enemy just as easily. To get a child, you need time. That why you need to make these alliances in peacetime. When you marry (or just plan to marry) at the start of the war, that doesn't really mean anything - you can still be screwed over - like Robb and the Freys. (or Robb and the Westerlings?) I understand that they try to make marriage alliances during the war, when it is needed, but those are not on the same level as peace-time arrangements.

I definitely can come up with a scenario where a political marriage between Jon and Sansa/Arya would be needed, but it really depends on whether GRRM wants to go there. But it is not outside the realms of possibilities.

[LongRider]

And the same with Sansa. She's writing her own story.

Indeed, and her inner thoughts tell us so, when LF tells her of his arrangement for her to marry HtH. These thoughts matter.

[Fox fur cloak]

I think that since it's wartime and Sansa doesn't have many allies (or any allies, once Littlefinger dies?) I could see Sansa marrying Jon for protection. I don't think the marriage would be consummated though, and it could be cast aside after the war. (People seem to think Jon might die in his war with the Others, anyway.)

On the other hand, I think Jon would be great with Val, and I think that neither Sansa nor Arya will marry anyone for a long long time.

[LongRider]

~~~snip~~~

I see Jon more likely becoming a King beyond the wall than the heir of WF.

I can see this happening more than Jon winning (or wanting) the IT or WF. As KbtW he would have an important kingdom of his own.

[Dolorous22]

I can see this happening more than Jon winning (or wanting) the IT or WF. As KbtW he would have an important kingdom of his own.

Yes, absolutely. A bastard Kingdom for a bastard. It would make sense to lead his people home again once they'd survived. A Kingdom where they'd never have to kneel and could worship whatever tree they like!

[Crazy Joe Wilson]

Now, there's a number of reasons why people don't like this theory. I think I can categorize, and refute each of the major points of why this theory, with its amount of foreshadowing, doesn't get "official-status" other theories do, like R+L=J.

1)Jon's a fan-favorite, Sansa is a fan-favorite-to-hate

2)People are applying modern cultural expectations to the theory, rather than Medieval Era expectations

3)Foreshadowing and hints get ignored

1)Jon's a fan-favorite, Sansa is a fan-favorite-to-hate

It's no secret Jon is a fan-favorite. Out of all the ASOIAF characters, Jon most closely matches the typical fantasy hero trope GRRM usually tries to avoid. He's agot a mark of shame against him (Bastard), he's got mystery to him (Doesn't know who his mother is, or really his father), he joins an awesome organization and rise to the top quick (Night's Watch), he gets an awesome love interest (Redheaded Ygritte), he experiences tons of tragedy (Death of most of his family, death of Ygritte), most of his opponents or enemies are despicable and easy-to-hate (Allister Thorne, Craster, Janos Slynt), he gets revenge (Janos Slynt for killing Eddard), as leader he always tries to make the best moral choice he can (Which is what leads eventually to his stabbing, since he ignores the inertia of institutions such as the Night's Watch, too much change too fast is never good), and ultimately he is one of the only characters to really see the big threat to the entire world and try to prepare for it. What's not to like about that (Besides his early series moodiness and entitlement-complex where he feels he's always been shafted due to being a bastard).

Sansa on the other hand get a lot of hate for the crime of being an 11 year-old girl who was raised with the expectation that she would one day be a wife and mother, and gets thrust into horrible situations that she nonetheless is able to survive, when many other more experienced players in King's Landing end up with their heads on a spike. That she engages in much more traditionally feminine activities, rather than picking up a sword and killing people and being all man-like (Which unfortunately seems to be the only acceptable avenue for fantasy women nowadays, which is in itself very sexist and limiting, but look to see who the two most popular female ASOIAF characters are, it's most likely Arya and Brienne). That Sansa learns her romantic ideals are not enough to help her survive, that she must both ignore them to a degree but also use them when they are beneficial to her does not seem to be enough, and people continue to hate on her for not being Arya-like.

It's understandable most people would not like a pairing theory with one favorite and one non-favorite, but it's also unreasonable.

2)People are applying modern cultural expectations to the theory, rather than Medieval Era expectations

Let's be honest. how many folks in this thread alone have either argued this theory is "icky and gross", or that Sansa and Jon would not want it, ergo it won't happen? These are modern day cultural expectations (Cousin marriage is bad and personal wants and desires trumpting societal expectations) that don't mean much in a dirty medieval setting like ASOIAF.

First off, people are arguing that because Jon and Sansa were raised in the same household, that there would be too much of a "sibling connection" that the marriage would seem terrible and icky. This ignores both a personal and a social dimension to the relationship between Sansa and Jon. First off, the social. During Medieval times, fostering was a thing. Children of one lord would be sent to be raised in the household of another lord, and sometimes those children might get married eventually. Littlefinger was raised for most of his life alongside Catelyn and Lysa, and that did not stop Littlefinger and Lysa from both developing romantic feelings (Although to different people)

As for the personal dimension, it's pretty apparent that Sansa and Jon were not all that close like brothers and sisters. Sansa doesn't usually include Jon in her thoughts about her family, and if she does, it is always as "half-brother". Sansa seems to have taken after her mother in somewhat excluding Jon in the Stark family, although that doesn't mean that she hates him. As a highborn lady raised with the idea of marrying a valiant prince and having babies, the label of bastard means Sansa has probably kept her interactions with Jon to very few as they were growing up. Jon meanwhile seems to have done the same thing. In the chapters where he is leaving Winterfell, and he thinks about his family and his "siblings", his thoughts also exclude Sasa when he is thinking about them all. Suffice it to say, Sansa and Jon did not have a close sibling relationship, nowhere near what Jon and Robb had, or even Jon and Arya. So the argument of "they were raised together and are too close and they would see it as icky and wrong" really doesn't hold strong when you look at their actual interactions.

3)People ignore the foreshadowing

Let's look at the foreshadowing of this theory, shall we.

1)Jon and Sansa are cousins, and not siblings. Pretty well established at this point, so the marriage is a possibility.

2)The Dunk and Egg Novels. The daughter of Sir Ashford's five champions all martch up with so far Sansa's suitors in ASOIAF

3)Sansa's dreams in the first novel (of some hero cutting off Janos Slynt's head) and Jon being the one to do the deed.

4)Sansa wanting so badly to go back to Winterfell, and Jon wrestling with the decision of being the heir to Winterfell (Via Stannis)

5)Finally, Sansa and Jon's stories parallel each other. Sansa starts off as a trueborn daughter of a great Lord, while Jon starts off as a bastard, who is very gloomy about his situation. Then, by ADWD their situations have reversed. Sansa has lost a great deal of her autonomy and now has to masquerade as the bastard daughter of Littlefinger while Jon as has become essentially a Lord in his own right, and even gets the nickname "Lord Snow" and has gained a great deal of autonomy. During Sansa's time as Alayne, she even thinks about Jon in a number of scenes.

You can already see in this thread people trying to either refute these points or ignore them outright. The champions at Ashford Tourney has been refuted weakly with the "But Joffrey's not a real Baratheon, so it doesn't matter, CASE CLOSED", even though every other suitor or betrothal lines up. And the fact that Harry Harrdying is Sansa's fourth suitor, and such a minor name would appear elsewhere from GRRM, is simply too much coincidence for this to be simply random conjecture. Furthermore, simply because Joffrey is not a true Baratheon does not mean this foreshadowing means squat. Remember, the only characters who know Joffrey (and Tommen and Myrcella) are true bastards are several of the Lannisters and Stannis, and everyone else knows it just as hearsay.

I'd like to also make the point that there's a great deal of readers out there that many manage to miss a lot of themes of the novels, which is probably why the parallel themes of Sansa and Jon don't get noted.

[CatherineLaw]

Also, at the time Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey he was believed to be a Baratheon. Sansa was betrothed to Robert Baratheon's heir ("I have a boy, you have a girl").

And Joffrey was never a Lannister, he was a bastard, and would have a bastard's surname.