R+L=J v. 129

[teej6]

For that matter, it may not even be necessary for the resolution of the book plot.

And yet GRRM tested D&D's knowledge of ASOIAF by asking them who they thought Jon Snow's mother was. Yes, I can see how irrelevant this piece of information is to the overall story.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And yet GRRM tested D&D's knowledge of ASOIAF by asking them who they thought Jon Snow's mother was. Yes, I can see how irrelevant this piece of information is to the overall story.

X+L=J

(No "R" required.)

[Alia of the knife]

Well they wouldn't be all scary if people new they were harikrishna of Westeros, Balor nearly screwed everything up and gave it away.

Could be worse, they could have been Moonys.

[sj4iy]

X+L=J

(No "R" required.)

Oh, come on. "Jon is Lyanna's son" only flips the equation that it's currently on right now, which is "Jon is Ned's son".

Plus anyone with two pennies worth of sense will think "Okay, if he's Lyanna's son, then who was she wi- OOOhhh, Rhaegar. Duh."

It's pretty silly to act like people would be satisfied with only knowing Jon Snow's mother instead of his father.

[teej6]

X+L=J

(No "R" required.)

Whether it's R or X is not the point. The point is that Jon's parentage is central to the story and it's reveal is important to the story in both mediums, books and show.

[sj4iy]

Whether it's R or X is not the point. The point is that Jon's parentage is central to the story and it's reveal is important to the story in both mediums, books and show.

The point isn't whether it's important or not.

The point is that it can't be "R" because people don't want Jon to be a Targaryen. For whatever reason.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It's pretty silly to act like people would be satisfied with only knowing Jon Snow's mother instead of his father.

I don't know about that. Sounds like GRRM was satisfied with the show producers only knowing Jon Snow's mother instead of his father.

[Ser Yolo Swaggins]

They're clearly not going to drop something as crucial as Jon's parentage from the show. The mere suggestion is pretty delusional

[Ser Creighton]

Could be worse, they could have been Moonys.

Intresting religion, is it true they worship Kim Kardashian? Because that is just annoying.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

sj4iy ... That's not the point at all. How will Jon's parentage affect the entire story of asoiaf is a good question. Jon is an important player, but he is only a part of it. He is not the keystone. The entire outcome does not rest on his shoulders.

But it is much easier to paint posters that disagree as haters and idiots.

[sj4iy]

I don't know about that. Sounds like GRRM was satisfied with the show producers only knowing Jon Snow's mother instead of his father.

Okay, then...let's imagine what your scenario in which the fact that Jon has an unknown father is brought to light in an interview:

RANDOM INTERVIEW #2,350 that will be seen by approx. 2 million people

David: So, we went to Martin to talk about producing his show for him. Then, he asked us the BIG question. "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" And, you know, we had an answer for that, and he liked our answer.

Dan: Yeah, especially the part where we said "Oh, and Ned's not Jon's father."

David: Wait, what?

Dan: Yeah, Dan. Don't you remember? When we said "Well, we are pretty sure it's Lyanna, so that means Rhaegar is his father." He was pretty surprised by that.

David: What the hell are you doing?? You're not supposed to say that in an interview!

Dan: I'm not? But, I thought we were saying what we told him, and why-

David: You idiot!

Basically: You can't use the fact that the producers aren't going to give away a spoiler as evidence that it doesn't exist.

[BearQueen87]

*sigh*

I thought we were going to talk about Bloodraven?

[markg171]

Many of the mentions of Rhaegar and Lyanna (and anything relevant to the R+L=J theory) from the tv show. It's immediately obviously that nothing has been changed from the books. They are keeping the details of this exactly the same. If they were going to change it, I would fully expect them to not even bother with any of the Rhaegar/Lyanna backstory- but they obviously are working them in at every opportunity.

ROBERT: Did you have to bury her in a place like this? She should be on a hill somewhere with the sun and the clouds above her.

NED: She was my sister. This is where she belongs.

ROBERT: She belonged with me. [He touches Lyanna’s face.] In my dreams, I kill him every night.

NED: It’s done, Your Grace. The Targaryens are gone.

—

ROBERT: Oh, it's unspeakable to you ? What her father did to your family... That was unspeakable. What Rhaegar Targaryen did to your sister... the woman I loved. I'll kill every Targaryen I get my hands on.

NED: But you can't get your hands on this one, can you ?

—

DANY: I hit him. I hit the dragon.

JORAH: Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake.

DANY: He is still the true King.

—

CERSEI: Well, seventeen years is quite a long time.

KING ROBERT: Yes, it is.

CERSEI: Yes, it tis. What was she like?

KING ROBERT: You've never asked about her, not once. Why not?

CERSEI: At first, just saying her name, even in private felt like I was breathing life back into her. I thought if I didn't talk about her, she'd just fade away for you. When I realized that wasn't going to happen, I refused to ask out of spite. I didn't want to give you the satisfaction of thinking I cared enough to ask. And eventually it became clear that my spite didn't mean anything to you, as far as I could tell, you actually enjoyed it.

KING ROBERT: So why now?

CERSEI: What harm could Lyanna Stark's ghost do to either of us that we haven't done to each other a hundred times over?

KING ROBERT: You want to know the horrible truth? I can't even remember what she looked like. I only know she was the one thing I ever wanted ... Someone took her away from me, and Seven Kingdoms couldn't fill the hole she left behind.

—

CERSEI: And when I finally saw him on our wedding day in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life. Then that night he crawled on top of me, stinking of wine and did what he did ... what little he could do ... and whispered in my ear, "Lyanna." Your sister was a corpse and I was a living girl and he loved her more than me.

—

BRAN: That's my grandfather Lord Rickard. He was burned alive by the Mad King Aerys. That's Lyanna, my father's sister. King Robert was supposed to marry her, but Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped her. Robert started a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar, but she died anyway.

—

DANY: Do you disagree, Ser Barristan?

BARRISTAN: When your brother Rhaegar led his army into battle at the Trident, men died for him because they believed in him, because they loved him, not because they'd been bought at a slaver's auction. I fought beside the last dragon on that day, Your Grace. I bled beside him.

JORAH: Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, and Rhaegar died.

DANY: Did you know him well, Ser Barristan?

BARRISTAN: I did, Your Grace. Finest man I ever met.

DANY: I wish I had known him. But he was not the last dragon.

—

THOROS: House Clegane was built upon dead children. I saw them lay Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys before the Iron Throne.

HOUND: Do you take me for my brother? Is being born Clegane a crime?

BWB MAN: Murder is a crime.

HOUND: I never touched the Targaryen babes. I never saw them, never smelled them, never heard them bawling. You want to cut my throat, get on with it! But don't call me murderer and pretend that you're not.

—

JOFFREY: My father won the real war. He killed Prince Rhaegar. He took the crown while you hid under Casterly Rock!

—

OBERYN: The last time I was in the capital was many years ago. Another wedding. My sister Elia and Rhaegar Targaryen, the Last Dragon. My sister loved him. She bore his children. Swaddled them, rocked them, fed them at her own breast. Elia wouldn't let the wet nurse touch them. And beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman. That started a war and the war ended right here when your father's army took the city...

TYRION: I wasn't actually present.

OBERYN: ...and butchered those children. My nephew and niece. Carved them up and wrapped them in Lannister cloaks.

—

OBERYN: I am the brother of Elia Martell. Do you know why I have come all the way to this stinking shit-pile of a city? For you. I'm going to hear you confess before you die. You raped my sister. You murdered her. You killed her children.

You can't exactly have a show where one of the main characters is trying to regain her throne, without explaining how her family lost her throne.

If she died in childbirth, it sure as hell lead to an early death.

In that scene, there's a full on battle raging around. Even if you are accounting for 7 on 4 in full on battle, human's physically cannot move that fast. His daughter is training for war. Ned, as a warrior, has seen a lot of death. How in the hell is it strange for him to think of all the death he's seen, specifically when his daughter is training for war?

But see the problem with that line of thinking, is that Ned directly relates Lyanna's death with that of Brandon. Both died from doing something reckless according to Ned, and Brandon's death comes very soon after his reckless act. If Lyanna's reckless act was running off with Rhaegar, then she died a year later which does not fit with either the connection to recklessness causing her death, nor with the connection to Brandon who died very soon and very directly from his recklessness.

And it's strange that Ned would think of some random battle out of all the ones he's been in, because you guys keep mentioning that Lyanna and Arya are similar. So if they're similar, and he's watching Arya fight, he's thinking of Lyanna fighting. Now Lyanna was never involved in any battles that we know of, so the only possible scenario for Lyanna to have been in a battle is at the TOJ.

Not only that, but when Ned first sees Arya training with Syrio, he's laughing and enjoying himself watching her have fun as Syrio keeps "killing" her. It's only as he continues to watch and sees that Syrio is much better than Arya, that he starts to grow pensive and sad and experience the flashback, with everything ultimately culminating in Arya being stabbed in the gut. Why is he experiencing flashbacks from watching Arya "die"?

(for anybody who doesn't know what scene we're talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvAUJ4i9GoY - 4:10-4:44)

You also seem to keep saying that Lyanna fought with the KG, not against them. Why would she fight Ned and her fellow northerners, and why would Ned then promise to do something for her, when she'd forsaken him and her fellow northerners in your scenario? It doesn't make sense. If she fought, she fought against the KG, not with them.

And yet GRRM tested D&D's knowledge of ASOIAF by asking them who they thought Jon Snow's mother was. Yes, I can see how irrelevant this piece of information is to the overall story.

I seen this thrown around here a lot, but that's not exactly true. He asked them many questions to see if they knew his books. This was just one of them, and is the one that's brought up the most as it's the only question we know he specifically asked as they mentioned it as one of them. They haven't mentioned any other questions even though we know he asked them multiple questions, so there's no indication that this was a particularly important question as we don't know what the other questions were in relation to this. He could have easily asked them this, and then asked them what fruit Renly offered Stannis at their parley which is an unimportant question but shows you remember details of the books. Which could be exactly what the "who is Jon Snow's mother" question was - do you remember Ned saying it was Wylla?

[teej6]

The point isn't whether it's important or not.

The point is that it can't be "R" because people don't want Jon to be a Targaryen. For whatever reason.

Exactly. And the reason, I suspect, has to do with the fact that Jon being Rhaegar's true born son would make his claim to the Targ throne stronger than Dany's and he would quite literally be the song of ice and fire.

[sj4iy]

sj4iy ... That's not the point at all. How will Jon's parentage affect the entire story of asoiaf is a good question. Jon is an important player, but he is only a part of it. He is not the keystone. The entire outcome does not rest on his shoulders.

...seriously, what are you on about? I'm not really sure what this has to do with anything I've said.

And I've never once argued that Jon was the ONLY person who mattered. Never. You can check every post I've ever written, I've NEVER ONCE painted him as the 'only main character' or the 'only hero'. Never. So don't throw that at me.

But it is much easier to paint posters that disagree as haters and idiots.

Yeah, no. I'm not the one who starts throwing around words like 'idiots', 'haters', 'fanboy', 'wish-fulfillment'.

Nor do I paint anyone that way.

[markg171]

Whether it's R or X is not the point. The point is that Jon's parentage is central to the story and it's reveal is important to the story in both mediums, books and show.

They're clearly not going to drop something as crucial as Jon's parentage from the show. The mere suggestion is pretty delusional

5 books in and it hasn't mattered a damn yet. So where are you getting this idea that it's so important?

[JonSnow4President]

. Which could be exactly what the "who is Jon Snow's mother" question was - do you remember Ned saying it was Wylla?

They said something like "and we had talked about it before." Sure seems odd to talk about a random throwaway line in the books between themselves before.

[Kingmonkey]

Not really. The entire way that the fight would go down would ensure that their would be lots of sword clashes. You're going 2:1 and would constantly be attacking to keep the KG on the defensive, while the KG are constantly trying to parry and kill someone to even the odds. Hence, lots of sword clashes. It's not a slow type of fight.

Listen. It's here. Don't listen to the sword blows, listen to all the distant voices and general hubbub. That's obviously meant to represent a sizeable pitched battle.

By the way, if you're the 1 and you're defending against 2, are you

A. "constantly trying to parry and kill someone", or are you

B. trying to keep your distance, create space between your two opponents by probing with the tip of your sword while avoiding committing your arm, and keeping your guard extremely tight until you can make an opening that doesn't expose your back, legs or flank?

If you answered A, you last about 30 seconds. You speak as if you know a bit about how sword fights are likely to go down, so you know this, right?

[teej6]

*sigh*

I thought we were going to talk about Bloodraven?

I try not to take the bait but it's hard to sit back and ignore posters that state that Syrio making a stabbing motion at Arya in training on the show implies Lyanna getting stabbed.

[markg171]

Exactly. And the reason, I suspect, has to do with the fact that Jon being Rhaegar's true born son would make his claim to the Targ throne stronger than Dany's and he would quite literally be the song of ice and fire.

If Viserys was the heir, by royal decree, or by actual normal succession, then when he made Dany his heir, that made Dany the one with the claim. Dany has the highest claim right now, because her claim flows through the last king making her his heir.

Then we have Aegon, who would be Dany's heir as he is the next available Targaryen.

Then we would have Jon, who goes behind Aegon by being the younger brother. So Jon has the weakest claim to the throne, not the highest.

Then we get into the fact that none of these 3 actually have a claim to the throne. The throne is in Baratheon hands, not Targaryens. Stannis is next in line, not any Targaryen. If a Targaryen wants the throne, they need to conquer it. Hence why both Aegon and Dany are getting armies. Because their blood doesn't mean anything anymore in regards to the throne. People might rally around them due to their blood, but their blood doesn't give them a claim to the throne.

And finally, the only instance of "song of ice and fire" in the novels is said about Aegon, whose mother was a Martell. Aegon is dragon and sun, which implies that the song of ice and fire is what the person will do, not who they are. In which case, their blood doesn't matter. Their actions do.