R+L=J v.130

[Greymoon]

snip.

I never said anything about the ability needing to be 'turned on'. Bran as far as I know, has the ability to warg even before his accident. The magical potential is there from the start. The ability too, else neither Sansa, nor Robb, nor Rickon, nor Arya, nor Jon, would be wargs in any sort of capacity. You misunderstood my post, clearly, because on the matter of wargs and skinchager, I spoke only of catalysts, and things that enhance the ability.

Near death experience is a common feature of 'shamanic' rites and other religious practices though, for reaching an altered state of consciousness. The fact that Bran and Jojen went through such experiences, that Arya, did too, to a lesser degree, makes me think that this is the way GRRM is going. And he's made certain Jon gets his own near-death experience, too.

Jon's life/death really finds echo in Bran's arc, imo. Bran, and Bloodraven will play a big part in his recovery. I don't see how Varamyr gets involved in that. Or why Jon might need more intervention for developing his skill, than Bran did.

Add the Ghost of Winterfell and the Theon WoW chapters to that, and you have a potential sacrifice being set up for Jon's recovery. Bran's recovery coincided with Lady's death. If Jon is 'more dead' than Bran was, his recovery might require a greater sacrifice. 'a life for a life', yeah? Theon will be brought to a weirwood tree, Jon too.

I'm aware of the foreshadowing that Jon will be brought to an Ice cell, or be stored (more likely) as food. Does that lessen the potential of his body being dragged out to the weirwood groove? I don't think so.

...But enough of that, it's quite off topic ;)

[RumHam]

Bran's recovery coincided with Lady's death.

How do we know this? I know this is how it was edited for the show.

[Mithras]

1. Remember the ritual of MMD

Mirri Maz Duur chanted words in a tongue that Dany did not know, and a knife appeared in her hand. Dany never saw where it came from. It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, its blade covered with ancient glyphs. The maegi drew it across the stallion’s throat, under the noble head, and the horse screamed and shuddered as the blood poured out of him in a red rush. He would have collapsed, but the men of her khas held him up. “Strength of the mount, go into the rider,” Mirri sang as horse blood swirled into the waters of Drogo’s bath. “Strength of the beast, go into the man.”

2. Remember how Lady's death and Bran's awakening were very close to each other. TV show made them spontaneous but that does not have to be the case. Remember the words of Bloodraven about how the trees perceive time different than men. A couple of days between Lady's death and Bran's awakening does not matter for a tree.

3. Remember the vision of Bran

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

4. Remember how Jon was referred to as Corn King by Mormont's Raven.

5. Read The Golden Bough (which is free in the Google Store) especially the parts about the Corn King,

Then, like me, you will fear that Val will slash the throat of Ghost in order to heal Jon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

How do we know this? I know this is how it was edited for the show.

We don't. In fact, the books seem to suggest otherwise, as Lady dies while Ned is still a fortnight away from KL, and news about Bran waking up reaches KL when he is there for a short while already.

[markg171]

Or maybe, Robert was the one who did not love Lyanna. He didn't even know her, really. Ned said that Robert knew her beauty, but not the iron within her. I think Robert wanted Lyanna, but never really loved. And it hurt his pride that he couldn't have her, that why it had such long-lasting effects, like Targ-hate.

On the other hand, when Rhaegar died, his last word was the name of the woman he loved. (HOTU vision). Who else but Lyanna? We know he didn't love Elia. He liked her, and was fond of her, but it wasn't love, definitely.

Ned himself says that Robert loved Lyanna more than he did.

As for the whole not knowing the iron beneath the beauty, I have no doubt that Robert would have loved nothing more than to have a wild, sword wielding, horseback riding wife who'd want to go on adventures. He hated Cersei specifically because she hated him and went out of her way to make his life hell, and because she never wanted to do anything that he did.

Robert loved Lyanna.. He expresses it, Ned expresses that he did, Robert named a ship after her, he said her name while bedding his new wife.. Robert loved her... He loved the Lyanna he knew, not necessarily the Lyanna that she actually was. I agree that Robert did not really know her, but he did love her, as he believed that she was.

Concerning Rhaegar, I was thinking about this quote from Barristan:

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!” said Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?”

“It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother’s heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate.”

Dany pulled the lion pelt tighter about her shoulders. “Viserys said once that it was my fault, for being born too late.” She had denied it hotly, she remembered, going so far as to tell Viserys that it was his fault for not being born a girl. He beat her cruelly for that insolence. “If I had been born more timely, he said, Rhaegar would have married me instead of Elia, and it would all have come out different. If Rhaegar had been happy in his wife, he would not have needed the Stark girl.”

“Perhaps so, Your Grace.” Whitebeard paused a moment. “But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy.”

“You make him sound so sour,” Dany protested.

“Not sour, no, but... there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense...” The old man hesitated again.

“Say it,” she urged. “A sense... ?”

“... of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days.”

Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar’s birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. “It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?”

That Lyanna's name was the last thing Rhaegar said before he died, there's no doubt about that. And, I also have no doubt that for Lyanna it all ended with her loving him (and perhaps she did so from the start, hard to say). But, did Rhaegar love her for who she was? Or for what she represented? Rhaegar needed a third "head", and Elia could not give him such. Lyanna could.

I don't know.. It's just that we have both Robert and Ned expressing how much Robert loved Lyanna, so I don't doubt his feelings.. But the "claimed to love" part sounds a bit strange.. did Rhaegar state such as the official reason, or did all of Westeros simply assume such?

Well I'd imagine Rhaegar had to give some kind of explanation. It's curious though that Jaime gives no indication that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but does give indication that he was still loyal to Elia.

robert saying he loves Lyana means nothing.

one not only do people in general often say things they don't mean we are told that robert will swear to do something one day and break his promises another especially when it comes to women in books.

two robert might think that he loves her but he never really met her and lost her so the actually reality of love her is always the one thing he wants but cannot have. this makes him glorify their relationship into something it was not.

three they both might love her and they both might not. in the end we can only judge them by there actions. that is why the word claimed is used.

the whole point is the song are stupid and things are never clear.

1. Robert's swore he loved her for like 20 years. It's not something he just forgot about.

2. Robert was betrothed to Lyanna for like 4 years. They spent 10 days at Harrenhal together. They had met each other, and spent time together.

[BearQueen87]

5. Read The Golden Bough (which is free in the Google Store) especially the parts about the Corn King,

Then, like me, you will fear that Val will slash the throat of Ghost in order to heal Jon.

I too fear for Ghost Puppy. My only thing is that I rather like the idea of it being Val and Mel--ice and fire.

[XSarellaX]

Mmm...do you mean in the Westerosi mindset? Even if not, I don't agree. Rhaegar did not anticipate a war. He certainly couldn't have anticipated Brandon being a "gallant fool" and riding to KL and screaming at the top of his lungs for the crown prince to come out and die. Westeros at large does not enter into a war until at least two-ish months after L was "taken." Brandon and Rickard both have to get to KL, there must be a trial and both die, word is sent that Aerys wants Ned and Robert's heads, Ned and Robert call the banners and make their daring escape from the Eyrie...then the war begins. Even if L going willingly is "the worst kept secret in the realms" as JS4Prez put it, they'd certainly know the turn of events that led to the war. But Rhaegar never started a war to get Lyanna. A war started after R took L and then after another series of events.

Yeah, that's what I meant. I don't think Lyanna's abduction was the main reason for the war (I actually agree with everything you said). But Rhaegar still went against lots of powerful people because of her, a war happened, and he died... I don't think it's a stretch to assume some people would view it as Rhaegar starting the war for her

[BearQueen87]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I don't think Lyanna's abduction was the main reason for the war (I actually agree with everything you said). But Rhaegar still went against lots of powerful people because of her, a war happened, and he died... I don't think it's a stretch to assume some people would view it as Rhaegar starting the war for her

I do wonder what the little people of Westeros would think of the Rhaegar/Lyanna drama. Did they hate him? Resent him? Do they think it was romantic?

[XSarellaX]

I too fear for Ghost Puppy. My only thing is that I rather like the idea of it being Val and Mel--ice and fire.

But if Jon's NDE is supposed to improve his warging abilities, then at least Ghost won't be sacrificed immediately. Maybe when it's time for him to go back to his body.

I wonder if Jon's and Ghost's spirits won't become somewhat merged after they share the same body for so long. If so, will it even be possible for them to inhabit separate bodies again? Wouldn't Jon coming back automatically kill Ghost?

[BearQueen87]

But if Jon's NDE is supposed to improve his warging abilities, then at least Ghost won't be sacrificed immediately. Maybe when it's time for him to go back to his body.

I wonder if Jon's and Ghost's spirits won't become somewhat merged after they share the same body for so long. If so, will it even be possible for them to inhabit separate bodies again? Wouldn't Jon coming back automatically kill Ghost?

I think Jon will stay inside Ghost for at least 2 chapters--one to establish that Jon is in fact inside Ghost and have him be wolfy for a while, then one in which he learns something (cough parentage cough). Then he goes back. I don't know why it would be longer than 4 chapters max.

[XSarellaX]

I think Jon will stay inside Ghost for at least 2 chapters--one to establish that Jon is in fact inside Ghost and have him be wolfy for a while, then one in which he learns something (cough parentage cough). Then he goes back. I don't know why it would be longer than 4 chapters max.

Yeah, Jon can't have too many chapters in Ghost... it could become quite boring. But 2-4 chapters can still mean a long time. At least time enough to change Jon.. make him more wolfy ;)

[Alia of the knife]

Given how much Bran crawls over the stones of WF and how often servants gossip, I think he overheard the story while climbing.

You know, your post just made me realize that Bran is in the perfect position now given how he ends up in everybodys business.

[markg171]

I do wonder what the little people of Westeros would think of the Rhaegar/Lyanna drama. Did they hate him? Resent him? Do they think it was romantic?

The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh. “I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her.”

Robert made a vow to kill Rhaegar before they ever met at the Trident for actions he had done to Lyanna. So people were aware of the rape/kidnap story. It's not something Robert made up in later years, it's something he knew about before he killed Rhaegar and before Ned came back from the TOJ saying Lyanna was dead.

[Alia of the knife]

robert saying he loves Lyana means nothing.

one not only do people in general often say things they don't mean we are told that robert will swear to do something one day and break his promises another especially when it comes to women in books.

two robert might think that he loves her but he never really met her and lost her so the actually reality of love her is always the one thing he wants but cannot have. this makes him glorify their relationship into something it was not.

three they both might love her and they both might not. in the end we can only judge them by there actions. that is why the word claimed is used.

the whole point is the song are stupid and things are never clear.

I agree that its possible that once married and Lyanna defied him, the bloom would be off the rose so to speak, but I think it remains to be seen if GRRM fills in anymore backstory on Roberts character as a youth, because it was GRRM himself who said he didn't think Robert was all that bad a guy.

But Rhaegar would have known Lyanna for herself especially, if you subscribe to the theory she was the tKotLT and he discovered it. He wasn't threatened by the side of her, and as I said to Rhaenys_Targaryen, given his somewhat sensitive nature, I believe he did give the Tower of Joy its name because TBH, its a goofy name.

Only a sap in love would give a building that over-the-top name.

When I've mentioned this to non-readers, they burst into laughter and say it sounds like the name of a porn movie. :unsure:

[BearQueen87]

Robert made a vow to kill Rhaegar before they ever met at the Trident for actions he had done to Lyanna. So people were aware of the rape/kidnap story. It's not something Robert made up in later years, it's something he knew about before he killed Rhaegar and before Ned came back from the TOJ saying Lyanna was dead.

No, I know. I'm asking if they believed the story. Or if they interpreted it all differently. Remember, Rhaegar was their prince. They loved him. They cheered the loudest for him--louder than Tywin, louder than Aerys. So how did the little peons of Westeros think and talk about what happened in their homes and taverns, ect.

[markg171]

No, I know. I'm asking if they believed the story. Or if they interpreted it all differently. Remember, Rhaegar was their prince. They loved him. They cheered the loudest for him--louder than Tywin, louder than Aerys. So how did the little peons of Westeros think and talk about what happened in their homes and taverns, ect.

That was for the first tourney he ever rode in. It was a special occasion so they cheered. As far as I can recall, he's never mentioned as being popular. From most descriptions, most people seemed to think he was depressed/melancholy, his father's knights used to laugh at him, and Rhaegar never tried to make friends so I doubt he was popular. He just didn't have the personality for it. Them cheering for him at Lannisport was because it was his first tournament.

I don't know if it's ever stated though what the regular folk thought of the war and Rhaegar's role in it? The best I can think of is this:

“When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river.

The Elder Brother says he fought, but can't tell you why. He just fought for him because his lord's lord decided to fight for the Targaryens. I'd imagine that's how it went for most people. They sided with their lord, who sided with his lord, who sided with either the Targaryens or Robert. They didn't really have opinions or care about which side was "right"

[BearQueen87]

That was for the first tourney he ever rode in. It was a special occasion so they cheered. As far as I can recall, he's never mentioned as being popular. From most descriptions, most people seemed to think he was depressed/melancholy, his father's knights used to laugh at him, and Rhaegar never tried to make friends so I doubt he was popular. He just didn't have the personality for it. Them cheering for him at Lannisport was because it was his first tournament.

1. What? What tourney are you talking about. HH was obviously not his first one. He rarely rode but rarely = / = never. He obviously kenw what he was doing in tourneys.

2. Well who would mention him being popular? We have virtually no little people in our story who would have the oppertunity to speak about it. The one instance that I can think of, is in Arya 5 ACOK where one of the captives thinks about how good life was under AERYS. I mean, that says something right there. It's called nostalgia. People always think better of what came before when their life is crap currently. And I think you're leaving out the most vital part: the sheer tragedy that is Robert, Rhaegar and Lyanna. It's the stuff singers and poets dream about. And the everyone eats it up and makes the "myth" being told in the stories the history. Revisionist history happens all the time over a glass of ale.

3. People who thought he was melancholy knew him. The little people did not. To them, he was the bright dragon prince. And just for the record, people who knew him did not think negatively of him all around. Barry describes him as melancholy, yes, but also able, dutiful, capable, smart.

4. You seem to think that his lack of little people friends speaks to how much he was loved. Tell me, how kings and princes are friends to the little people and therefore are not loved.

5. Again, you're really missing the point of how people tell the history of tragic stories to cast everyone to make it a real tragedy and how the past that they once knew muddles in order to drive the tragedy. This whole "he didn't make friends and didn't have the personality for it" literally has nothing to do with given that I'm talking about the little people.

6. And...no one ever cheered for him ever again? Ever? Really? You think that?

[markg171]

1. What? What tourney are you talking about. HH was obviously not his first one. He rarely rode but rarely = / = never. He obviously kenw what he was doing in tourneys.

2. Well who would mention him being popular? We have virtually no little people in our story who would have the oppertunity to speak about it. The one instance that I can think of, is in Arya 5 ACOK where one of the captives thinks about how good life was under AERYS. I mean, that says something right there. It's called nostalgia. People always think better of what came before when their life is crap currently. And I think you're leaving out the most vital part: the sheer tragedy that is Robert, Rhaegar and Lyanna. It's the stuff singers and poets dream about. And the everyone eats it up and makes the "myth" being told in the stories the history. Revisionist history happens all the time over a glass of ale.

3. People who thought he was melancholy knew him. The little people did not. To them, he was the bright dragon prince. And just for the record, people who knew him did not think negatively of him all around. Barry describes him as melancholy, yes, but also able, dutiful, capable, smart.

4. You seem to think that his lack of little people friends speaks to how much he was loved. Tell me, how kings and princes are friends to the little people and therefore are not loved.

5. Again, you're really missing the point of how people tell the history of tragic stories to cast everyone to make it a real tragedy and how the past that they once knew muddles in order to drive the tragedy. This whole "he didn't make friends and didn't have the personality for it" literally has nothing to do with given that I'm talking about the little people.

6. And...no one ever cheered for him ever again? Ever? Really? You think that?

She was ten when she finally saw her prince in the flesh, at the tourney her lord father had thrown to welcome King Aerys to the west. Viewing stands had been raised beneath the walls of Lannisport, and the cheers of the smallfolk had echoed off Casterly Rock like rolling thunder. They cheered Father twice as loudly as they cheered the king, the queen recalled, but only half as loudly as they cheered Prince Rhaegar.

Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. Two of her uncles fell before his lance, along with a dozen of her father’s finest jousters, the flower of the west. By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep. When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes. He has been wounded, she recalled thinking, but I will mend his hurt when we are wed. Next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy. The prince is going to be my husband, she had thought, giddy with excitement, and when the old king dies I’ll be the queen. Her aunt had confided that truth to her before the tourney. “You must be especially beautiful,” Lady Genna told her, fussing with her dress, “for at the final feast it shall be announced that you and Prince Rhaegar are betrothed.”

They cheered him so much when he rode at Lannisport. They didn't cheer him like that every time, just the first time he ever competed. I'm sure they continued to cheer him later in life, but the quote about him being cheered more than anybody was a one time event.

[J. Stargaryen]

Prince Rhaegar emerged as the ultimate victor at the end of the competition. The crown prince, who did not normally compete in tourneys, surprised all by donning his armor and defeating every foe he faced, including four knights of the Kingsguard. In the final tilt, he unhorsed Ser Barristan Selmy, generally regarded as the finest lance in all the Seven Kingdoms, to win the champion’s laurels.

The cheers of the crowd were said to be deafening, but King Aerys did not join them. - TWoIaF, The Year of the False Spring, pg. 126

Sure, it doesn't say he was cheered more than anyone, but does it have to?

[markg171]

Sure, it doesn't say he was cheered more than anyone, but does it have to?

I don't own the World Book so it's not exactly something I can check.

Interesting that it says he beat 4 KG though. I knew about Dayne and Barristan, but not the other 2. Whent was one of the original 5 champions and it's not said who ever defeated him, but seeing as either Rhaegar or Barristan had to have defeated him to be one of the final 2 champions (seeing as the KOTLT comprised the other 3 champions and never showed again) this points to Rhaegar. I'm going to assume the other was either Darry or Lewyn as I'm assuming Hightower never competed.