R+L=J v.130

[IceFire125]

Didi you read that whole section? The 'totem' is where the soul of the youth/novice is kept:

Ghost is Jon's totem...

And I still don't think Ghost will die though, because this passage describes the transfer of souls from the human body to animal body, and that's it. From this I understand that if the 'totem' dies, the human soul dies, too. I doubt this is what GRRM is going for. imo, Ghost in this case, only fills the role of the 'safeguard', the place were Jon's soul is kept safe. In the Hunter's story, it's the hunter's 'killer' who resurrected the hunter, too...

Believe me, I would love it for Ghost to live after Jon is awakened/resurrected as a dragon, but...

In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one.

**The old gods have chosen Jon to represent a greater purpose and burden, they mark it by giving him Ghost. However, I don't think Ghost will live past the moment after his purpose is fulfilled. His ultimate purpose, beside protecting Jon as he grew, is to be the bridge for Jon to live that 'second life'.

I maybe one of the few here, but for a while now, I believe Jon will be that balance, his journey and his life is the song of ice and fire to the core, from the day he was conceived. I believe that GRRM have heavily foreshadowed Jon to be a person that will not blindly hate of unwanted things. He was willing to understand the plight of the wildlings and I believe, he will see that not all of the Others are purely evil. I believe Jon will be the great restorer.

In Dany's dreams, she will fight with her enemies wearing armor of ice. Rightly so. But I also think Dany will be betrayed by Jon, as in, in her view he will go to the dark side of supporting/defending the Others as beings. And his Targaryen 'rage' will be used against the men who are going beyond stopping the Others, to eliminate them as sentient beings.

They descended to the yard in silence. Outside, Jon looked up at the Wall shining in the sun, the melting ice creeping down its side in a hundred thin fingers. Jon’s rage was such that he would have smashed it all in an instant, and the world be damned.

This is Jon's ultimate fight against his inner self/heart. That it will require him to fight his fellow men for them to finally understand. It will take Jon's action as The Stranger and as Death, for The Pact of Ice and Fire to fully be realized. Will it take Jon's life in the process? I hope not, but I do know it will be a bittersweet ending, per GRRM's statement. It could be Jon surviving in the end, but standing in the midst of that last battle, would be men and women that he was fighting along side long before... now they are ashes and cinders.

[Ellfoy]

On Ghost being killed to bring back Jon, I just had a thought : Doesn't Lady's death coincide with Bran waking up ? At least the show enforced the idea.

[Mychel_Redfort]

On Ghost being killed to bring back Jon, I just had a thought : Doesn't Lady's death coincide with Bran waking up ? At least the show enforced the idea.

It's not stated explicitly, but Lady is killed at the end of Game 16, and Bran wakes up in Game 17, and the timing could fit, so it's not to exclude.

[Greymoon]

snip.

I agree that Jon/Ghost is connected to the Old Gods. In a sense, I'd say, he's even more connected to Bloodraven though. I wouldn't be surprised if Jon took up the white dragon on black, for his sigil for ex..... killing Ghost would really kill his Stark identity however, and I don't really see that happening. Maybe it will, maybe it won't... though I don't find that there's any specific foreshadowing pertaining to Ghost's death in the text.

A clue is provided us with Lady's death, indeed, but at the same time, we learn from MMD that the life of an animal is not nearly enough a price to pay for a human life. And when MMD did her magic, Drogo wasn't dead yet. He was only dying, which may well be Jon's case. I think from Bran and Dany's arc the only thing we can conclude for certain is that Jon's recovery will require a sacrifice of some sort. Whether this sacrifice be an animal, a human life, or a transformation à la Beric, we don't know....

....Theon's and Asha's chapters provide some material for speculation, though. Sacrifice has been a big theme in Stannis's story... So that's why I'm going with that option, instead.

[IceFire125]

I agree that Jon/Ghost is connected to the Old Gods. In a sense, I'd say, he's even more connected to Bloodraven though. I wouldn't be surprised if Jon took up the white dragon on black, for his sigil for ex..... killing Ghost would really kill his Stark identity however, and I don't really see that happening. Maybe it will, maybe it won't... though I don't find that there's any specific foreshadowing pertaining to Ghost's death in the text.

A clue is provided us with Lady's death, indeed, but at the same time, we learn from MMD that the life of an animal is not nearly enough a price to pay for a human life. And when MMD did her magic, Drogo wasn't dead yet. He was only dying, which may well be Jon's case. I think from Bran and Dany's arc the only thing we can conclude for certain is that Jon's recovery will require a sacrifice of some sort. Whether this sacrifice be an animal, a human life, or a transformation à la Beric, we don't know....

....Theon's and Asha's chapters provide some material for speculation, though. Sacrifice has been a big theme in Stannis's story... So that's why I'm going with that option, instead.

Certainly. Not only Ghost's life, but maybe Theon's and Shireen's blood is required to resurrect Jon. That's if Jon is dead, dead.

Some of us believe that he's in a comatose state. He's wounded, but his body is preserved in the cold cell and with salt in it, more of an environment that his body will not decay, while his consciousness is in Ghost.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On Ghost being killed to bring back Jon, I just had a thought : Doesn't Lady's death coincide with Bran waking up ? At least the show enforced the idea.

When Ned Stark kills Lady, he is still a fortnight travel away from KL. After having been in KL an unidentified amount of days, news about Bran is mentioned. The way it is stated, the letter arrived when they had reached KL already.

So if it was GRRM's idea that Bran woke up when Lady died, he did not specify it. In fact, it would most likely take a raven less than 14 days to fly from Winterfell to KL.

[Mychel_Redfort]

When Ned Stark kills Lady, he is still a fortnight travel away from KL. After having been in KL an unidentified amount of days, news about Bran is mentioned. The way it is stated, the letter arrived when they had reached KL already.

So if it was GRRM's idea that Bran woke up when Lady died, he did not specify it. In fact, it would most likely take a raven less than 14 days to fly from Winterfell to KL.

As it happens, when Bran complains that neither Ned, Catelyn or Jon have answered, Luwin explains to him that sometimes ravens get lost. So the possibiliy that Luwin's first raven to Ned has not reached King's Landing may have been hinted here.

[BearQueen87]

Certainly. Not only Ghost's life, but maybe Theon's and Shireen's blood is required to resurrect Jon. That's if Jon is dead, dead.

Some of us believe that he's in a comatose state. He's wounded, but his body is preserved in the cold cell and with salt in it, more of an environment that his body will not decay, while his consciousness is in Ghost.

I too believe he's in a comatose state and that in order to be released from that his "vessel" has to die.

Now, I also think that Shireen is toast, but I can't quite figure out why...unless Mel still doesn't believe that on is TPTWP when he comes back to his body and moves ahead with killing Shireen to get something for Stannis.

As a side but related note, the show has hinted quite strongly that Shireen has some role to play at the Wall that Mel knows about and saw in her flames. I doubt it involves unicorns and rainbows.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Why would Jon's conciousness move to Ghost's body if Jon is still alive? That didn't happen with Bran. He had dreams of the 3EC but did not move on to Summer's body. Thats a second life thing. If Jon resides in Ghost then he is dead. If he lives then who knows? Jon already dreams he is a wolf, but maybe he will experience something new.

As far as Theon or Asha go, don't see that either. Someone dies far off by a weirwood and that affects Jon? Not like MMD'S ritual at all which was very specific in its purpose.

So Jon is only wounded and maybe unconcious or dead. If he is dead then bringing him back will be a very specific task. Of course GRRM says he thought Gandalf should have stayed dead, but....

[BearQueen87]

Why would Jon's conciousness move to Ghost's body if Jon is still alive? That didn't happen with Bran. He had dreams of the 3EC but did not move on to Summer's body. Thats a second life thing. If Jon resides in Ghost then he is dead. If he lives then who knows? Jon already dreams he is a wolf, but maybe he will experience something new.

As far as Theon or Asha go, don't see that either. Someone dies far off by a weirwood and that affects Jon? Not like MMD'S ritual at all which was very specific in its purpose.

So Jon is only wounded and maybe unconcious or dead. If he is dead then bringing him back will be a very specific task. Of course GRRM says he thought Gandalf should have stayed dead, but....

Didn't happen to Bran = / = not possibly happening to Jon.

The fact that Jon's last word is "Ghost" combined with the famous "Oh you think he's dead do you..." seems like sufficient clues that Jon's story is going to be different than Bran's.

[J. Stargaryen]

I too believe he's in a comatose state and that in order to be released from that his "vessel" has to die.

Now, I also think that Shireen is toast, but I can't quite figure out why...unless Mel still doesn't believe that on is TPTWP when he comes back to his body and moves ahead with killing Shireen to get something for Stannis.

As a side but related note, the show has hinted quite strongly that Shireen has some role to play at the Wall that Mel knows about and saw in her flames. I doubt it involves unicorns and rainbows.

“I had bad dreams,” Shireen told him. “About the dragons. They were coming to eat me.” - ACoK, Prologue. Before a dragon eats something, it cooks it. Dragons coming to eat Shireen = she will be burned alive.

[BearQueen87]

“I had bad dreams,” Shireen told him. “About the dragons. They were coming to eat me.” - ACoK, Prologue. Before a dragon eats something, it cooks it. Dragons coming to eat Shireen = she will be burned alive.

Poor Shireen.

[addicted to snow]

Didn't happen to Bran = / = not possibly happening to Jon.

The fact that Jon's last word is "Ghost" combined with the famous "Oh you think he's dead do you..." seems like sufficient clues that Jon's story is going to be different than Bran's.

No one is saying that Bran and Jon's story is the same... Bran never died... Jon is dead (compare his stabbing to Varamyr's 'True' death in the ADWD's Prologue)...

[addicted to snow]

Certainly. Not only Ghost's life, but maybe Theon's and Shireen's blood is required to resurrect Jon. That's if Jon is dead, dead.

Some of us believe that he's in a comatose state. He's wounded, but his body is preserved in the cold cell and with salt in it, more of an environment that his body will not decay, while his consciousness is in Ghost.

Theon is not going to die anytime soon...

Only the Blood of Khal Drogo's Horse was required to bring him back from death...

[The Twinslayer]

I don't own the World Book so it's not exactly something I can check.

Interesting that it says he beat 4 KG though. I knew about Dayne and Barristan, but not the other 2. Whent was one of the original 5 champions and it's not said who ever defeated him, but seeing as either Rhaegar or Barristan had to have defeated him to be one of the final 2 champions (seeing as the KOTLT comprised the other 3 champions and never showed again) this points to Rhaegar. I'm going to assume the other was either Darry or Lewyn as I'm assuming Hightower never competed.

I think it is interesting that Rhaegar jousted against even one KG, let alone four of them.

In the Hedge Knight, Prince Baelor Breakspear says that the KG oath prevents them from harming any Prince of the blood. This becomes a major plot point in the trial of seven.

And we know that any jouster faces the risk of serious injury or death. The Red Viper maimed Willas Tyrell and Willas seems to accept that as a risk he took when he entered the lists. And no one tries to punish the Mountain after he kills Hugh of the Vale.

So any KG jousting against Rhaegar would run the risk of harming a Prince of the Blood. It seems to me that your options in that case would be to forfeit the tilt or to participate but then let the prince win.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yep. Second lives for wargs and skinchangers happen when their bodies die. Bran didn't move on to Summer because he still lived. Varamyr did die and moved on to his wolf. Orell died and moved on to his eagle.

It seems a lot of people want Jon to live and have a second life at the same time.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I think it is interesting that Rhaegar jousted against even one KG, let alone four of them.

In the Hedge Knight, Prince Baelor Breakspear says that the KG oath prevents them from harming any Prince of the blood. This becomes a major plot point in the trial of seven.

And we know that any jouster faces the risk of serious injury or death. The Red Viper maimed Willas Tyrell and Willas seems to accept that as a risk he took when he entered the lists. And no one tries to punish the Mountain after he kills Hugh of the Vale.

So any KG jousting against Rhaegar would run the risk of harming a Prince of the Blood. It seems to me that your options in that case would be to forfeit the tilt or to let the prince win.

Interesting. Who was it that beat Rhaegar at the Lannister tourney? It was Rhaegar's best friend. Probably the only one who would give him the real deal.

Ned also tells Robert pretty much the same thing about the Hand's Tournament melee.

[The Twinslayer]

Interesting. Who was it that beat Rhaegar at the Lannister tourney? It was Rhaegar's best friend. Probably the only one who would give him the real deal.

Ned also tells Robert pretty much the same thing about the Hand's Tournament melee.

Exactly. And later Barristan thinks that if he had been "a better knight" then he would have unhorsed Rhaegar. Does he mean that if he was a better jouster he would have won? Or that a "better knight" would not have dishonored himself by deliberately throwing the match?

[Alia of the knife]

"So, you think Jon is dead do you?" - GRRM

Jon isn't dead, but his dreams and visions will sustain him.

What does die are the last vestages of boyhood, innocence and trust. He was sorely betrayed and after having just murdered the LC of the wall, I'm not sure his men would want to preserve his body anywhere.

Burning the dead, especially with the advent of the walkers, has become a theme as we see even with the burning of Ygritte.

When any of the rangers died, they burned their bodies to keep them from "turning."

I think for a short time, he will be in a coma where he will go between his own conscience and Ghost, but eventually I think they will want to burn his body.

[Mithras]

“I had bad dreams,” Shireen told him. “About the dragons. They were coming to eat me.” - ACoK, Prologue. Before a dragon eats something, it cooks it. Dragons coming to eat Shireen = she will be burned alive.

Drogon supposedly ate a little girl and later ridden by Dany.

Viserion ate a crossbowman and will be ridden by Tyrion.

Rhaegal ate a bull and will be ridden by Victarion, who is called a bullock right from the beginning.

:)