Raving Stark the Mad Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 In the Tywin fandom, child murder, rape, pillaging, and other atrocities are a-okay as long as you're rich. Nah. It's only okay as long as they win and end the war, thus stopping more raping, child murder, and pillaging. Victory at any cost. Peace at any cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic. Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 It ultimately didn't stop anything anything considering the Freys are still about to be massacred and the Lannisters also face ruin while the North is busy fighting amongst themselves (sort of). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Pillaging and atrocities are done by all sides, Tywin just does them better ;)But no one defends rape or child murder, that's a straw man They don't defend it. They deny it. Or try to explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Pillaging and atrocities are done by all sides, Tywin just does them better ;)But no one defends rape or child murder, that's a straw man Yes, but when it comes to Tywin the justification can be pride alone. I can see why you think it's a strawman, I honestly do. But I know several posters who have done exactly that. I won't call any of them out because they can speak for themselves, but look at any Tywin discussion about the Targaryen children, Elia, and Tysha. Tywin is always defended by the logic "it was necessary to kill the children to ensure the new dynasty! It was pragmatic!" He's occasionally defended in regards to Tysha as "he's a Lord, that's within his rights!" And even Tywin himself defends the Elia criticism by saying "hey it wasn't me that done it, just the men I ordered to go slaughter the woman's children. My hands are soooo clean of blood." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melx Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 My hands are soooo clean of blood." Those are words of "honorable" Ned,he was crucial part of group that killed Targ children, Grayjoy children and sent killers to murder Dany twice......but his hands somehow stayed "clean"...... or "hey it wasn't me that done it, just the men I that i like to "hang out in war times" went and slaughter the woman's children. My hands are soooo clean of blood." Ned's own words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Those are words of "honorable" Ned,he was crucial part of group that killed Targ children, Grayjoy children and sent killers to murder Dany twice......but his hands somehow stayed "clean"...... or "hey it wasn't me that done it, just the men I that i like to "hang out in war times" went and slaughter the woman's children. My hands are soooo clean of blood." Ned's own words Hahaha. This whole post is ripe with hilarity. I can't even tell if you're serious or not. Because if you're serious, I have to wonder if you've ever opened aGoT and read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Yes, but when it comes to Tywin the justification can be pride alone. Nothing to do with saving House Lannister from extermination at the hands of Stannis and his cohorts then, ok. Hahaha. This whole post is ripe with hilarity. I can't even tell if you're serious or not. Because if you're serious, I have to wonder if you've ever opened aGoT and read it. Ned was also present during Hoster Tully's little punishment campaign in the riverlands during Robert's Rebellion. He certainly associated with men who would be war criminals by today's standards and sees nothing wrong with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Nothing to do with saving House Lannister from extermination at the hands of Stannis and his cohorts then, ok. Stannis wasn't out to exterminate House Lannister. Just Cersei, who deserves it 100 times over. But I'm not defending Stannis here. I'm simply pointing out how fans will rush to defend Tywin. Case in point, the reaction is to try and bring someone like Eddard down to Tywin's level. (Trying and failing, I might add.) This doesn't excuse Tywin in any way shape or form. It just makes others look bad through twisting of words, misinterpretation, character assassination, and outright lies like recently posted. And honestly, this whole thread topic is just a huge, glaring example of this Tywin whitewashing trend. He can literally order a massacre that violates the most sacred law in the country and people will still line up to lick his boots and defend it under the false pretense that it "ended a war" and was good for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 @Nic The Lannisters are falling right now, but that has nothing to do with the Red Wedding. @Melx Um... Ned almost broke off his friendship with Robert because he shrugged off Tywin killing the Targaryen children and again when Robert was going to kill Dany. You can't condemn him for that. And the Greyjoys kids weren't even going to be killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Stannis wasn't out to exterminate House Lannister. Just Cersei, who deserves it 100 times over. But I'm not defending Stannis here. I'm simply pointing out how fans will rush to defend Tywin. Case in point, the reaction is to try and bring someone like Eddard down to Tywin's level. (Trying and failing, I might add.) This doesn't excuse Tywin in any way shape or form. It just makes others look bad through twisting of words, misinterpretation, character assassination, and outright lies like recently posted. And honestly, this whole thread topic is just a huge, glaring example of this Tywin whitewashing trend. He can literally order a massacre that violates the most sacred law in the country and people will still line up to lick his boots and defend it under the false pretense that it "ended a war" and was good for the future. Do you think Robert/Stannis or Renly would have let Cersei's children live. No? Do you think they'd have let Jaime live. No? Do you think it would be sensible to leave Tywin in a position of power after executing the aforementioned? No? Exterminate House Lannister is accurate then. But sure, Tywin only had his pride in mind, whatever ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 And honestly, this whole thread topic is just a huge, glaring example of this Tywin whitewashing trend. He can literally order a massacre that violates the most sacred law in the country and people will still line up to lick his boots and defend it under the false pretense that it "ended a war" and was good for the future. I agree and it's getting tiresome. Taking a good character and nitpick his actions completely out of context so match him with the other characters who actions are obviously considered cruel by the author himself is the definition of desperation. Ned can't be blamed for the actions of Hoster or Robert, but Tywin definitely should be blamed for the actions of Gregor. If anyone can't see the difference, it's because their sight is heavily blurred by bias. Killing people during war aren't the same as war crimes. First can be explained, the latter needs to be justified by those committing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Davos Martell Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 And honestly, this whole thread topic is just a huge, glaring example of this Tywin whitewashing trend. He can literally order a massacre that violates the most sacred law in the country and people will still line up to lick his boots and defend it under the false pretense that it "ended a war" and was good for the future. In no way was i defending Tywin in the OP, if that was what you meant. Things don't always boil down to Pro-Robb or Pro-Tywin. It is possible to see positive effects of the RW (end the war in the Riverlands) while at the same time condemning the act and the one who did it. The title "the red wedding was ultimately good for the realm" was probably a bad title, "the red wedding was not all bad for the realm" would be more fitting in hindsight. Also: Tywin is pretty bad, and compared to other stuff he has done such as the genocide of a whole House and killing children for example, the Red Wedding was pretty tame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Do you think Robert/Stannis or Renly would have let Cersei's children live. No? Do you think they'd have let Jaime live. No? Do you think it would be sensible to leave Tywin in a position of power after executing the aforementioned? No? Exterminate House Lannister is accurate then. But sure, Tywin only had his pride in mind, whatever ... I didn't realize House Lannister was only made up of Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, and their bastards. In any case, the first three brought their condemnation on themselves. There are plenty of other Lannisters who have not fucked over the realm. In no way was i defending Tywin in the OP, if that was what you meant. Things don't always boil down to Pro-Robb or Pro-Tywin. It is possible to see positive effects of the RW (end the war in the Riverlands) while at the same time condemning the act and the one who did it. Tywin is pretty bad, and compared to other stuff he has done such as the genocide of a whole House and killing children for example, the Red Wedding was pretty tame. I wasn't singling out your specific OP per se, but the topic itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 They don't defend it. They deny it. Or try to explain it. I don't see many denials, except with Elia where there is reasonable doubt. And what's the problem with explanations? You also "try to explain it", you just have a different explanation. Stannis wasn't out to exterminate House Lannister. Just Cersei, who deserves it 100 times over. But I'm not defending Stannis here. I'm simply pointing out how fans will rush to defend Tywin. Case in point, the reaction is to try and bring someone like Eddard down to Tywin's level. (Trying and failing, I might add.) This doesn't excuse Tywin in any way shape or form. It just makes others look bad through twisting of words, misinterpretation, character assassination, and outright lies like recently posted. And honestly, this whole thread topic is just a huge, glaring example of this Tywin whitewashing trend. He can literally order a massacre that violates the most sacred law in the country and people will still line up to lick his boots and defend it under the false pretense that it "ended a war" and was good for the future. Stannis would have killed Cersei's kids, by his own admission. So are you saying Tywin should have sat back and allowed Tyrion to be kidnapped and put on a show trial for his life, and then Cersei and her children to be defamed and slaughtered? Talk about bias... Yes, but when it comes to Tywin the justification can be pride alone. I can see why you think it's a strawman, I honestly do. But I know several posters who have done exactly that. I won't call any of them out because they can speak for themselves, but look at any Tywin discussion about the Targaryen children, Elia, and Tysha. Tywin is always defended by the logic "it was necessary to kill the children to ensure the new dynasty! It was pragmatic!" He's occasionally defended in regards to Tysha as "he's a Lord, that's within his rights!" And even Tywin himself defends the Elia criticism by saying "hey it wasn't me that done it, just the men I ordered to go slaughter the woman's children. My hands are soooo clean of blood." But it was pragmatic to kill those kids. That isn't a moral defense, just an explanation. Maybe you prefer "X is bad!" to be the end of all discussion, but some of us like to actually discuss characters and their actions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melx Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 This whole post is ripe with hilarity. I can't even tell if you're serious or not. Because if you're serious, I have to wonder if you've ever opened aGoT and read it. so you are saying that "honorable" Ned hands are soooo clean of blood? "honorable" Ned whitewashing trend ? "honorable" Ned is willing accomplice in all (war) crimes during & after Roberts rebellion, if you judge Tywin,you should at least try to use same measures on "honorable" Ned... @Melx Um... Ned almost broke off his friendship with Robert because he shrugged off Tywin killing the Targaryen children and again when Robert was going to kill Dany. You can't condemn him for that. "almost" is key word, yes he did speak out against but did nothing and stayed loyal to Robert after that: went to war for him against IB and stayed as hand after killers were already sent to murder Dany.....hypocrisy all the way "honorable" Ned words are ok but his deeds are not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I didn't realize House Lannister was only made up of Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, and their bastards. In any case, the first three brought their condemnation on themselves. There are plenty of other Lannisters who have not fucked over the realm. You condemn child murder and then brush off the attempted murder of Tommen/Myrcella as totally insignificant. Your idea that Tywin should have just allowed his family to be deposed and slaughtered based on what he thought was a lie (the incest) is pure Stark/Stannis fanboyism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 You condemn child murder and then brush off the attempted murder of Tommen/Myrcella as totally insignificant. Your idea that Tywin should have just allowed his family to be deposed and slaughtered based on what he thought was a lie (the incest) is pure Stark/Stannis fanboyism I told you, I am not defending Stannis on that. Where you got that in your head, I don't know. But it was pragmatic to kill those kids. That isn't a moral defense, just an explanation. Maybe you prefer "X is bad!" to be the end of all discussion, but some of us like to actually discuss characters and their actions It's a defense nonetheless and if you can turn a blind eye to dead infants because of "pragmatism" by all means, that's your thing. so you are saying that "honorable" Ned hands are soooo clean of blood? "honorable" Ned whitewashing trend ? "honorable" Ned is willing accomplice in all (war) crimes during & after Roberts rebellion, if you judge Tywin,you should at least try to use same measures on "honorable" Ned... "almost" is key word, yes he did speak out against but did nothing and stayed loyal to Robert after that: went to war for him against IB and stayed as hand after killers were already sent to murder Dany.....hypocrisy all the way "honorable" Ned words are ok but his deeds are not! I've said jack shit about Ned in relation to Tywin. That's your strawman. But as LeeSensei pointed out, what you blamed Ned for was wrong. It takes real bias to think that the Targaryen children and the Greyjoy children are scars on Ned's honor and character. If you want to focus on that "almost," the reason he made up with Robert was because of grief from Lyanna's death. And it's not like he forgave Robert fifteen years later. He was still throwing that in Robert's face, as any decent person would. But I bet if you continue to rant and rave about how unfair the world is to poor innocent Tywin and biased towards evil Ned Stark, I'm sure someone will believe you eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 You condemn child murder and then brush off the attempted murder of Tommen/Myrcella as totally insignificant. Your idea that Tywin should have just allowed his family to be deposed and slaughtered based on what he thought was a lie (the incest) is pure Stark/Stannis fanboyism That is just too cute. If you knew my stances at all, you'd know I'm not a fan of Stannis. Read this part out loud to yourself, at least twice: I am not defending Stannis. I was simply saying that Stannis' intentions for war was not the extermination of House Lannister. That is an extreme exaggeration and it doesn't take a Stannis fanboy to defend him on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 @Melx You're blaming him for things h had nothing to do with and spoke out against. He isn't to blame. And what Greyjoy children are you talking about? Rodrik and Marron were adults or at least teenagers. Old enough to fight and lead men in war. Asha and Theon lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roxWolfox Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Wait a second. How on Earth is aiding the Night's Watch a good thing? The evil motherfuckers murdered Puddles! Hate to break it to you, bro, but it seems that you're the one with his optics hopelessly biased in favor of the so-called heroes of the story (i.e. humans). Just the fact that they get more screen time and the chapters are cleverly written from their point of view doesn't automatically make them in the right. I apologize for the offensive word, but I must say it nevertheless, warning points be damned: you're mainstream. I feel less alone in my fandommy ways after reading this. :crying: I didn't realize House Lannister was only made up of Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, and their bastards. In any case, the first three brought their condemnation on themselves. There are plenty of other Lannisters who have not fucked over the realm. I wasn't singling out your specific OP per se, but the topic itself. :agree: I think one of the great tragedies is the death of Kevan Lannister. I had high hopes for the return of some semblance of order in the realm. so you are saying that "honorable" Ned hands are soooo clean of blood? "honorable" Ned whitewashing trend ? "honorable" Ned is willing accomplice in all (war) crimes during & after Roberts rebellion, if you judge Tywin,you should at least try to use same measures on "honorable" Ned... "almost" is key word, yes he did speak out against but did nothing and stayed loyal to Robert after that: went to war for him against IB and stayed as hand after killers were already sent to murder Dany.....hypocrisy all the way "honorable" Ned words are ok but his deeds are not! You seem to have issue with Ned being called/remembered as being honourable. I assume the posters on this site wouldn't label him so if the characters in the books didn't give him that moniker almost every time they speak of him. The posters labeling of Ned as being honourable is mainly because we've had it shoved in our faces from the beginning of the story through various PoVs (i.e., the introduction of Robert Baratheon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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