melx Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Do you realise Slynt was a corrupt man whose loyalty and the loyalty to him was based on money and favours, right? corrupt man? "honorable" Ned tried to buy him but Slynt refused him........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 corrupt man? "honorable" Ned tried to buy him but Slynt refused him........ Janos is not corrupt because Ned tried to buy him? What? :bs: What books are you reading? Seriously, I have never seen such a biased argument to favour Slynt from all character than this piece of post :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 @OP. Why do you think Robb's war is hopeless/pointless?? Sure it seems hopeless at the time of the RW - but it seemed equally hopeless for the Lannisters when Robb was beating hem left and right, Renly was marching on KL and Stannis was massing troops on DragonStone.Courses of wars can change in 1 battle. Tywin knew that - which is why he did not want to risk his huge army against Robb and which is why he did not bend the knee when the entire realm was gunning for him. IIRC the reach is about to come under attack, SE and DragonStone are still untaken (and no one is marching north with two strong castles near KL still in enemy hands) and the IB have withdrawn from the North at the time of the RW. So whats the worst case scenario for Robb?? He loses the Riverlands. What really would have been pointless is a Lannister led attempt to conquer the North As for Tywin being more help to the wall than Robb. Wasnt it Tywin's men who attacked and killed members and recruits of the NW?? Robb may not have lifted a finger to help (which is debatable since nearly all of the NW's food, gold and supplies come from the Starks - and Robb certainly did not put a stop to that) but at least he did not attack it. Also no messenger came to Robb (like one came to the Lannisters) and no raven is mentioned either (like one which came to Stannis) - In fact, there is no evidence that Robb even knew that the wall was in danger - unlike Tywin who did know and still did nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Davos Martell Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 @OP. Why do you think Robb's war is hopeless/pointless?? Sure it seems hopeless at the time of the RW - but it seemed equally hopeless for the Lannisters when Robb was beating hem left and right, Renly was marching on KL and Stannis was massing troops on DragonStone. Courses of wars can change in 1 battle. Tywin knew that - which is why he did not want to risk his huge army against Robb and which is why he did not bend the knee when the entire realm was gunning for him. I was thinking at the time of the RW. The war was far from hopeless at the start. As for pointless, Yes in my OP I felt Robb marching south was a pointless war about having his revenge on the Lannisters, which i frankly do not view as enough reason for going to war. But, after thinking about it, I have arrived at the conclusion that it was far from pointless, as he was defending the lives of the common people and lords of the Riverlands and the North, lands that he had a responsibility to protect as they elected him King, and Joffrey and Tywin was surely not going to protect them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I was thinking at the time of the RW. The war was far from hopeless at the start. As for pointless, Yes in my OP I felt Robb marching south was a pointless war about having his revenge on the Lannisters, which i frankly do not view as enough reason for going to war. But, after thinking about it, I have arrived at the conclusion that it was far from pointless, as he was defending the lives of the common people and lords of the Riverlands and the North, lands that he had a responsibility to protect as they elected him King, and Joffrey and Tywin was surely not going to protect them. The real problem for Robb was Joffrey...he's a sadistic nut with a vendetta against the Starks, so it's all well and good to say that Robb should have bent the knee, and if we were talking about Tywin or Tommen that would be true, but with Joff on the throne the Starks would never be safe, Joff was too out of control to be trusted, even with his grandfather attempting to control things behind the scenes. We will never know if Robb would have made peace with the Lannisters if Joffrey had been killed before he was, but he might have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Scorpion Knight Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Slynt and other leaders of the Gold Cloaks were sent to the Wall. Even after Slynt was denied the leadership we see the Crown send men such as Desmond Grell and Robin Ryger to the WallThe Crown sent more men to serve the Wall then Robb did. It was in the Walls best interests that the war come to an end rather than continue.I think it is very unlikely that these make it to the wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 How? The Crown haven't helped the Wall at all. Even with the war ending it was Stannis who came to the aid of the Wall not any monstrous Lannisters. The Crown sent more men to the Wall then Robb did. They helped more. Do you realise Slynt was a corrupt man So? He could still have been a decent leader for the Watch. I get that he killed was ordered to kill Ned so forever in the eyes of some he is nothing but a villain but a butchers son does not rise to become Commander of the Gold Cloaks without some level of competency in leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 He could still have been a decent leader for the Watch. I get that he killed was ordered to kill Ned so forever in the eyes of some he is nothing but a villain but a butchers son does not rise to become Commander of the Gold Cloaks without some level of competency in leadership. Oh, yes. Everybody loves a Cinderella story, but that's not Slynt's case. Slynt rose that high because he was corrupt and Robert didn't even want to stop and consider the evidence presented against him by Arryn. So, the argument of "people hate him because he killed Ned" is nonsense. We find out he killed Ned because he was already a corrupt man. And he wanted to turn the Wall into a second KL in which he could corrupt others to gain favours, which is exactly what the Wall DID NOT need at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 The Crown sent more men to the Wall then Robb did. They helped more. They also killed more NW men than Robb did. I believe the net total for the Crown is actually negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 He could still have been a decent leader for the Watch. I get that he killed was ordered to kill Ned so forever in the eyes of some he is nothing but a villain but a butchers son does not rise to become Commander of the Gold Cloaks without some level of competency in leadership. Whaaaaaat? He was a dirty cop and rose to become Commander of the Gold Cloaks specifically because he was a dirty, corrupt, cop. He was chosen by LF for that express purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Whaaaaaat? He was a dirty cop and rose to become Commander of the Gold Cloaks specifically because he was a dirty, corrupt, cop. He was chosen by LF for that express purpose. Jon Arryn hired him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Jon Arryn hired him. And? Jon Arryn was clearly not above making mistakes, he promoted LF too, who engineered his death, and pushed Bob to marry Cersei, which precipated his mental downfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 And? Jon Arryn was clearly not above making mistakes, he promoted LF too, who engineered his death, and pushed Bob to marry Cersei, which precipated his mental downfall. and what? Jesus some of you are always itching for an argument. I was jut pointing out that Arryn hired Janos, not everyone knows that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Jon Arryn hired him. And Jon wanted him gone Slynt's neck was purpling. "Lies, all lies! A strong man makes enemies, Your Grace knows that, they whisper lies behind your back. Naught was ever proven, not a man came forward...""Two men who were prepared to come forward died suddenly on their rounds." Stannis narrowed his eyes. "Do not trifle with me, my lord. I saw the proof Jon Arryn laid before the small council. If I had been king you would have lost more than your office, I promise you, but Robert shrugged away your little lapses. 'They all steal,' I recall him saying. 'Better a thief we know than one we don't, the next man might be worse.' Lord Petyr's words in my brother's mouth, I'll warrant. Littlefinger had a nose for gold, and I'm certain he arranged matters so the crown profited as much from your corruption as you did yourself". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 The Crown sent more men to the Wall then Robb did. They helped more. Wait a second. How on Earth is aiding the Night's Watch a good thing? The evil motherfuckers murdered Puddles!Hate to break it to you, bro, but it seems that you're the one with his optics hopelessly biased in favor of the so-called heroes of the story (i.e. humans). Just the fact that they get more screen time and the chapters are cleverly written from their point of view doesn't automatically make them in the right.I apologize for the offensive word, but I must say it nevertheless, warning points be damned: you're mainstream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Jon Arryn hired him. Jon Arryn also tried to get rid of him before certain witnesses unexpectantly died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Wait a second. How on Earth is aiding the Night's Watch a good thing? The evil motherfuckers murdered Puddles!Hate to break it to you, bro, but it seems that you're the one with his optics hopelessly biased in favor of the so-called heroes of the story (i.e. humans). Just the fact that they get more screen time and the chapters are cleverly written from their point of view doesn't automatically make them in the right.I apologize for the offensive word, but I must say it nevertheless, warning points be damned: you're mainstream.It was Sam who did that, and the Watch rightly exiled him and his aggressive ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 This debate about Janos the Manos is interesting but seems rather off topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Damn Tywin fanboys will stop at nothing, will they? Stark, Stannis, and Dany fans are often accused of it, but the award for most whitewashing goes to the Tywin fandom. In the Tywin fandom, child murder, rape, pillaging, and other atrocities are a-okay as long as you're rich. They deserve a whole bushel of apples for their whitewashing. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Stark, Stannis, and Dany fans are often accused of it, but the award for most whitewashing goes to the Tywin fandom. In the Tywin fandom, child murder, rape, pillaging, and other atrocities are a-okay as long as you're rich. They deserve a whole bushel of apples for their whitewashing. :DPillaging and atrocities are done by all sides, Tywin just does them better ;) But no one defends rape or child murder, that's a straw man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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