The Red Wedding was ultimately good for the realm

[Lee-Sensei]

@melx They weren't hated either. 5 Houses united against the Targaryens and their biggest supporter only fought for them under duress.

Yes. They are usurpers. They invaded and took power from several different Kings by force, but I'm done. I don't think we'll agree on this.

[Maid So Fair]

@Fire Eater Um... nope. Certainly they want a Frey punished for it. It's not like they're calling for the extinction of the entire House. Corbray is called a Frey when he draws his sword, but one of the LD's is raising a Frey child and the Royces are related to the Freys. The only place the Freys are universally hated are the Riverlands and the North. I think Godric Borell says it best.

The lord tore off another chunk of bread to swipe out his trencher. "The Freys were bringing the fat fool a bag of bones. Some call that courtesy, to bring a man his dead son's bones. Had it been my son, I would have returned the courtesy and thanked the Freys before I hanged them, but the fat man's too noble for that."

]b]Do they see it as treacherous? Yes. Do they like the RW? No. Would they go out killing Freys for it? Nope. The people that died weren't their sons, daughters, siblings etc. They're not as invested in it as you think.

@melx Aerys broke it when he was burning Lords alive. And I seriously doubt the Iron Islands has any Targ loyalists.

Would they as much as lift a finger or a voice in protest if one of the numerous Frey enemies decides to kill a few (or perhaps even all of them)? Nope. You seem to be saying that since everyone's not calling their banners to march on the Twins it doesn't count. The Freys might not have been extremely popular before, but there weren't people calling for their blood either. If Manderly did as suggested and hanged the Freys that came to White Harbour publicly (punishment reserved for the worst criminals and usually not to nobility), would people protest against this vile murder and rally to punish him? Or just file it under not all Northern lords being noble fools and get back to their dinner? Can you imagine people having this reaction to hanging pretty much anybody else of equal status? When the BWB is seeking refuge in their lands, will the Riverlords hunt them down or merely look the other way? Even their allies are distancing themselves for them and are openly talking about spilling some Frey blood themselves.

Note he doesn't say he would carefully investigate whether the Freys that brought him the bones were involved in the death of his son and then punish the perpetrators. He says he would just hang them indiscriminately and good riddance, and basically calls Manderly a soft fool for not doing so.

[Lee-Sensei]

@Maid so Fair 1) Of course they wouldn't save the Freys from being wiped out. Just like no one aside from their allies lifted a finger to save the Tullys and Starks when they were being wiped out.

2) Every time someone brings up the BW, I have to point out that Thoros, one of the major members of the BW (one of the few groups going after the Starks) sees what they're doing as evil. I think Brienne said something about it too.

3) No. Godric says if it was his son he'd have done that. Notice that he let the Freys in and sent them on their way. There's no reason for everyone to be so invested in avenging the Starks.

[Blackfish Tully]

@Fire Eater Um... nope. Certainly they want a Frey punished for it. It's not like they're calling for the extinction of the entire House. Corbray is called a Frey when he draws his sword, but one of the LD's is raising a Frey child and the Royces are related to the Freys. The only place the Freys are universally hated are the Riverlands and the North. I think Godric Borell says it best.

There are probably not many Houses in the South that aren't related to the Freys because of some marriage in the past but that means very little. You think Bronze Yohn will hesitate from attacking the Freys because he's related to some of the Freys? Lord Walders 4th wife was a Blackwood and they had several children and grandchildren so there are a bunch of Freys with Blackwood blood but do you think that will stop him from killing Freys?

The Freys might not be "universally" hated in the rest of Westeroes but they are certainly hated by some people and looked down on in disgust by most of the rest . They certainly will get no help from anybody and even their allies will only give them token assistance. the church has gotten more powerful because of recent events and they can't be happy about what the Freys did.

[Blackfish Tully]

@Maid so Fair 1) Of course they wouldn't save the Freys from being wiped out. Just like no one aside from their allies lifted a finger to save the Tullys and Starks when they were being wiped out.

2) Every time someone brings up the BW, I have to point out that Thoros, one of the major members of the BW (one of the few groups going after the Starks) sees what they're doing as evil. I think Brienne said something about it too.

3) No. Godric says if it was his son he'd have done that. Notice that he let the Freys in and sent them on their way. There's no reason for everyone to be so invested in avenging the Starks.

Lord Godric is not a fool . Killing the Freys at that time would have pissed off the Iron Throne , the Freys , Lord Sunderland , the Vale Lords and even Lord Manderly. why would he do all that ? There is a difference between wanting revenge and being a fool . That's why Lord Manderly played the "mummer's farce" with the Freys.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Lord Godric is not a fool . Killing the Freys at that time would have pissed off the Iron Throne , the Freys , Lord Sunderland , the Vale Lords and even Lord Manderly. why would he do all that ? There is a difference between wanting revenge and being a fool . That's why Lord Manderly played the "mummer's farce" with the Freys.

And there is a difference between wanting revenge and disdain.

He would have killed the Freys if they had killed his son, that is not to say that he wanted to murder them. It is a big difference, but the idea that Houses not involved in the Red Wedding want the Freys dead is wrong, however much they may dislike them.

[Blackfish Tully]

And there is a difference between wanting revenge and disdain.

He would have killed the Freys if they had killed his son, that is not to say that he wanted to murder them. It is a big difference, but the idea that Houses not involved in the Red Wedding want the Freys dead is wrong, however much they may dislike them.

It depends on the House . The Red Wedding was a stain on the Honor of every House in Westeroes so even Houses that did not care about the Starks would want to kill Walder Frey because their Honor demands it . Not every House will feel that way but a good portion will . The Red Wedding was also a attack on the Gods so the church my also take a hand in punishing the Freys.

Greed will also come into play because the Freys are very rich and some Houses and Knights will join the attack just for the plunder .

[Lee-Sensei]

@Blackfish Tully 1) I don't think Yohn Royce is going to be attacking Freys at all.

2) No. IIRC, the Freys killed his son. They've essentially broken ties with the Blackwoods and other Riverlords they're related to. The people that hate them and would likely try and kill them are in the Riverlands and the North. The families of the victims of the RW.

3) Definitely. I never said they were. It's just that, by and large the people that hate them are in Robbs Kingdom.

4) And no one helped the Starks and Tullys aside fro their allies.

[Blackfish Tully]

And there is a difference between wanting revenge and disdain.

He would have killed the Freys if they had killed his son, that is not to say that he wanted to murder them. It is a big difference, but the idea that Houses not involved in the Red Wedding want the Freys dead is wrong, however much they may dislike them.

Don't forget we are talking about Knights and Lords in Westeroes so they are not the most logical or reasonable thinkers when it come to warfare. What happens if Sansa marries Harry in front of all the honor obsessed Lords and Knights of the Vale (with their pent up frustration at being left out of the last war ) and she steps out looking beautiful with her Stark cloak and implores them on their honor to revenge her brother and mother . They would be marching the next day .

[Blackfish Tully]

@Blackfish Tully 1) I don't think Yohn Royce is going to be attacking Freys at all.

2) No. IIRC, the Freys killed his son. They've essentially broken ties with the Blackwoods and other Riverlords they're related to. The people that hate them and would likely try and kill them are in the Riverlands and the North. The families of the victims of the RW.

3) Definitely. I never said they were. It's just that, by and large the people that hate them are in Robbs Kingdom.

4) And no one helped the Starks and Tullys aside fro their allies.

We have to agree to disagree on Bronze Yohn , I think there is no way he will not attack the Freys.

The Red Wedding is bigger then just the Riverlands and North . It's a stain on the Honor of every Knight and Lord in Westeroes.

The Vale Lords wanted to help the Tully's and Starks but Lysa and Littlefinger stopped them . Their Honor prevented them from disobeying the Lady of the Vale just like their Honor demands revenge on the Freys for the Red wedding.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

We have to agree to disagree on Bronze Yohn , I think there is no way he will not attack the Freys.

The Red Wedding is bigger then just the Riverlands and North . It's a stain on the Honor of every Knight and Lord in Westeroes.

The Vale Lords wanted to help the Tully's and Starks but Lysa and Littlefinger stopped them . Their Honor prevented them from disobeying the Lady of the Vale just like their Honor demands revenge on the Freys for the Red wedding.

Again, I don't think he likes them but I don't think he will attack them on his own accord. Walders first wife was a Royce. Stevron, Emmon, Aenys and their descendants all have Royce blood. There is also Ryella Royce who married Arwood Frey and their four children with Royce blood. And in the event that Harry does become the Ruler of the Vale we have his relative who married Deana Hardyng.

He is not going to be so angry with Guest rights that he starts committing Kinslaying.

[Blackfish Tully]

Again, I don't think he likes them but I don't think he will attack them on his own accord. Walders first wife was a Royce. Stevron, Emmon, Aenys and their descendants all have Royce blood. There is also Ryella Royce who married Arwood Frey and their four children with Royce blood. And in the event that Harry does become the Ruler of the Vale we have his relative who married Deana Hardyng.

He is not going to be so angry with Guest rights that he starts committing Kinslaying.

He's angry with Guest Rights and with the fact that they killed Ned Stark's son and wife in such a cowardly and brutal fashion. You are putting way to such stock in these relationships. Bronze Yohn had probably never met any of these Frey's who have Royce blood and he is not going to sit there and do nothing about what Walder Frey has done because Walder married a Royce 60 years ago.

The Royce's probably have relative in most of the powerful families of the South but that does not mean that they are going to not attack them if warranted because they have a second or third or fourth ,,, cousin in that family.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He's angry with Guest Rights and with the fact that they killed Ned Stark's son and wife in such a cowardly and brutal fashion. You are putting way to such stock in these relationships. Bronze Yohn had probably never met any of these Frey's who have Royce blood and he is not going to sit there and do nothing about what Walder Frey has done because Walder married a Royce 60 years ago.

The Royce's probably have relative in most of the powerful families of the South but that does not mean that they are going to not attack them if warranted because they have a second or third or fourth ,,, cousin in that family.

And you are not? Robb was killed more than a year ago, Ned two years ago and Royce has done nothing. What is he waiting for? He was able to raise an army when he felt Littlefinger was taking over yet has done nothing to suggest he will attack the Freys.

Huge difference between disdain and actually fighting them.

[Prince Davos Martell]

And you are not? Robb was killed more than a year ago, Ned two years ago and Royce has done nothing. What is he waiting for? He was able to raise an army when he felt Littlefinger was taking over yet has done nothing to suggest he will attack the Freys.

Huge difference between disdain and actually fighting them.

He is probably just smart. He would probably not mind killing the Freys, and would have good reason for doing this. But, why should he? Revenge does not benefit him, and he has to think of the Vale and his House first and foremost. Attacking the Freys is both stupid and reckless. The people of the Vale are also so far untouched by war, winter has arrived, and the Vale has enough food to survive it. best thing to do is to just relax and wait, not to start a war.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Again, I don't think he likes them but I don't think he will attack them on his own accord. Walders first wife was a Royce. Stevron, Emmon, Aenys and their descendants all have Royce blood. There is also Ryella Royce who married Arwood Frey and their four children with Royce blood. And in the event that Harry does become the Ruler of the Vale we have his relative who married Deana Hardyng.

He is not going to be so angry with Guest rights that he starts committing Kinslaying.

Already discussed and shown irrelevant.

[Blackfish Tully]

He is probably just smart. He would probably not mind killing the Freys, and would have good reason for doing this. But, why should he? Revenge does not benefit him, and he has to think of the Vale and his House first and foremost. Attacking the Freys is both stupid and reckless. The people of the Vale are also so far untouched by war, winter has arrived, and the Vale has enough food to survive it. best thing to do is to just relax and wait, not to start a war.

You are giving way to much credit to these Lords and Knights . Going to war is almost never a good idea but these the Lords and Knights of Westeroes will do it because that's who they are.

[Blackfish Tully]

And you are not? Robb was killed more than a year ago, Ned two years ago and Royce has done nothing. What is he waiting for? He was able to raise an army when he felt Littlefinger was taking over yet has done nothing to suggest he will attack the Freys.

Huge difference between disdain and actually fighting them.

Just because he has done nothing means very little . He was ordered by Lysa not to do anything and he was obeying her but that does not mean he's not planning something. Bronze Yohn is not rash and attacking the Freys at the Twins is not something to be done lightly especially with the Lannisters in the Riverlands but as time goes by the situation is changing and we will see what happens.

Whether or not he attacks them will have little to do whether or not he's distantly related to some Freys.

[White Ravens]

And you are not? Robb was killed more than a year ago, Ned two years ago and Royce has done nothing. What is he waiting for? He was able to raise an army when he felt Littlefinger was taking over yet has done nothing to suggest he will attack the Freys.

Huge difference between disdain and actually fighting them.

Perhaps Royce is a master player of the Game in the mold of Doran Martell. That is to say, if you wait long enough all of your enemies die. :)

[Maid So Fair]

@Maid so Fair 1) Of course they wouldn't save the Freys from being wiped out. Just like no one aside from their allies lifted a finger to save the Tullys and Starks when they were being wiped out.

It's a different situation, since they're at open war and the who started it question is pretty fuzzy. Had he gone and just executed them during peacetime or something it would get a different reaction (in fact, it did - see Red Wedding). And the Vale lords wanted to help the Starks/Tullys. You certainly don't see people saying they had it coming. They also had allies, at least in each other if not the Vale. The Freys have none and more and stronger enemies than the Starks ever did. Not saving them is all it takes.

[Fire Eater]

@Fire Eater Um... nope. Certainly they want a Frey punished for it. It's not like they're calling for the extinction of the entire House. Corbray is called a Frey when he draws his sword, but one of the LD's is raising a Frey child and the Royces are related to the Freys. The only place the Freys are universally hated are the Riverlands and the North. I think Godric Borell says it best.

The lord tore off another chunk of bread to swipe out his trencher. "The Freys were bringing the fat fool a bag of bones. Some call that courtesy, to bring a man his dead son's bones. Had it been my son, I would have returned the courtesy and thanked the Freys before I hanged them, but the fat man's too noble for that."

Do they see it as treacherous? Yes. Do they like the RW? No. Would they go out killing Freys for it? Nope. The people that died weren't their sons, daughters, siblings etc. They're not as invested in it as you think.

@melx Aerys broke it when he was burning Lords alive. And I seriously doubt the Iron Islands has any Targ loyalists.

So basically you're saying hate=wanting extinction of entire house? That is a completely false assumption. You see the Blackwoods hate the Brackens yet I don't hear of any of them calling for the Brackens' extinction. It is actually possible to hate people and not want their house to go extinct. As to the Freys being related to the Freys, the one who calls Corbray "a Frey" is a Royce, Bronze Yohn.

The RW did end northern rebellion aka war and anyone who has read ADwD has seen aftermath of the war ....not war.

Tywin and his coalition have won,problems that came after Tywin was killed are separate thing from rebellion that was crushed ....

Sparrows,BWB and rest are just "The rats who will play while the cat's(Tywin) away"

No, it didn't end the war. Stannis was still active, and as Tyrion himself said, as long as Stannis was alive the war isn't over yet, and so does Tywin when he says if Stannis gains Dorne he could continue the war for a few more years. The Northmen are fighting again within a few months, and are actively working to bring down the Boltons and Lannisters so clearly the war isn't over. Obviously, the BwB was founded and working even when Tywin was still alive, including when they started hanging Freys. The sparrows were coming to KL for shelter and for a message.

usurper and "his dogs" broke the social contract of Westeros by killing the King and almost his entire bloodline...."no rules anarchy" started at that moment but was kept in bay by their military power & savage way they dealt with resistance (IB rebellion)

Half of Riverlands,Dorne,Iron Islands & a lot of Targ loyalists just waited for right time to show that usurper claim on throne means nothing to them....they all knew that Robert Baratheon was first and the last Baratheon who has sat on Iron Throne...

As Lee-Sensei said, Aerys broke the feudal contract not Ned, Robert and Jon. Aerys had Lord Rickard and Brandon killed without trial, which they are guaranteed to under the feudal contract. Aerys also tried to have Ned and Robert executed without trial and without having committed any crimes.

What Robert's side did was justified. In terms of savage way they dealt with resistance, as has been pointed out, the IB didn't fight out of loyalty to the Targaryens, given Lord Quellon Greyjoy joined Robert's side. They fought for independence for their own reasons.