Ser Maverick Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 At least until Aegon and Daenerys come one year later, making your entire point moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 @Fire Eater What? Are you saying Anya Waynwood hates all Freys? There's absolutely no evidence of that. I can't believe I'm repeating this again, but she's raising a Frey in her house. No evidence? It's pretty clear the RW is reviled throughout Westeros. I don't think you paid attention to my post. I clearly stated she made an exception for her ward who clearly wasn't there, but likely reviles the rest of House Frey since the entire family in the Twins was involved. Sandor Frey serves as a squire at Iron Oaks. Cynthena Frey is Lady Waynwoods ward. Walton Frey clearly has strong ties to the Waynwoods as his mother is Marsella Waynwood and he married a Hardyng, Household knights to the Waynwoods, and has 3 children with her. Except the Freys at the Twins are still responsible for the RW, and I doubt she let that slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 No evidence? It's pretty clear the RW is reviled throughout Westeros. I don't think you paid attention to my post. I clearly stated she made an exception for her ward who clearly wasn't there, but likely reviles the rest of House Frey since the entire family in the Twins was involved. Except the Freys at the Twins are still responsible for the RW, and I doubt she let that slide. Are we supposed to take your opinion on what she thinks as evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 You might be able to say that the Red Wedding stopped the fighting if it had actually stopped the fighting. It calmed things down for a period but there's still conflict going on. The northerners are taking it to the Freys and Boltons at Winterfell, Freys are getting hanged in the Riverlands, the Lannisters are running out of allies. The focus of the conflict may have shifted, but it's still a conflict. And if nothing else, the Red Wedding set a dangerous precedent. This is a society where law and order is fluid and unreliable. One of the very few institutions and practices in this society that has any sort of tangible meaning, where theft, rape and murder are way too common, is guest right protection. It is one of the things that holds society together and helps create some semblance of stability. The Freys destroyed it. All it takes is one notable time, and soon people become distrustful and paranoid. If this becomes too widespread then the basic foundation of conduct in this country is compromised. And in the long run that could be more devastating than even a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 @Fire Eater Post #358. The RW is hated. All of the Freys are not. There's no evidence that she's just making an exception when it comes to her wards and that she really hates every other Frey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I would have to disagree with the op. I feel the red wedding proliferated the conflict by weakening the state of cause which in effect has led to a power vacuum and the uptick of future planned warfare to come. the red wedding has also opened the door for more war tome atrocities to be committed and has lowered respect for potential cease fires, treaties, bargaining, or restitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great and Mighty Poo Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Please for the love of anything holy, atheist, agnostic, jewish, etc etc do not restart this thread; I am sick of seeing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 @Fire Eater Post #358. The RW is hated. All of the Freys are not. There's no evidence that she's just making an exception when it comes to her wards and that she really hates every other Frey. But who is responsible for the RW, it didn't happen by itself? The Freys are universally hated for the RW, that's a fact. I doubt she wouldn't feel any anger towards House Frey at all for the RW, or what is essentially breaking the oath of fealty to king and liege lord, and the oldest and most sacred of vows in Westeros. Are we supposed to take your opinion on what she thinks as evidence? It's called an "opinion." I'm entitled to one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Except the Freys at the Twins are still responsible for the RW, and I doubt she let that slide. What do you mean by let it slide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 It's called an "opinion." I'm entitled to one. I'm aware of what it is called, it's the very word I used in what you quoted. You seemed surprised he would rather have actual facts presented as evidence as opposed to your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 @Fire Eater This is silly. The holocaust is hated and seen as an evil thing. Germans aren't universally hated because not all Germans were a part of it. The same thing applies here. The Freys being universally hated is far from a fact. It's something that some people have convinced themselves is fact. The truth is, the Freys are widely hated in the Riverlands and the North. The rest of Westeros are pretty neutral about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 @Fire Eater This is silly. The holocaust is hated and seen as an evil thing. Germans aren't universally hated because not all Germans were a part of it. The same thing applies here. The Freys being universally hated is far from a fact. It's something that some people have convinced themselves is fact. The truth is, the Freys are widely hated in the Riverlands and the North. The rest of Westeros are pretty neutral about them. I wouldn't say neutral. Their reputation has certainly taken a hit and neutral Houses will be less likely to associate themselves with them, or will need more incentive to do so but I don't think they are in any physical danger from these Houses either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 ^You're right. I should explain. They're certainly seen as untrustworthy. Even more than they had been before. And the Red Wedding is condemned by most people. But no ones going to go out and kill them over it aside from the North and the Riverlands and all of them being hated for it, just isn't accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Davos Martell Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 A interesting point. Did not a Sansa kill Joffrey under guest rights too (at least from the perspective of Cersei and the realm)? A guest bringing murder to the house of a host is just as bad as a host killing his guest. I guess the Starks are universally hated because of it then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Sansa didn't kill Joffrey. Olenna did kill Joffrey, but no one knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Davos Martell Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Sansa didn't kill Joffrey. Olenna did kill Joffrey, but no one knows. That was my point. If the bad thing with the Red Wedding was the breaking of guest rights, not the murder itself, then Joffrey being killed in his own Wedding should be just a bad, and the Stark and the Lannisters (Tyrion is a Lannister after all) should thus be as hated as the Freys. If you want to go by the logic that if someone breaks guest rights then the realm automatically hates their whole house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I think that killing off Robb and his separatists has benefited the realm but I don't think that the specific way in which it was done has done so. A more conventional way would have been preferable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 That was my point. If the bad thing with the Red Wedding was the breaking of guest rights, not the murder itself, then Joffrey being killed in his own Wedding should be just a bad, and the Stark and the Lannisters (Tyrion is a Lannister after all) should thus be as hated as the Freys. If you want to go by the logic that if someone breaks guest rights then the realm automatically hates their whole house. We don't know what the population at large thinks of joffery's murder. Cersei's story about it being Sansa and Tyrion is just that, a story. There's no indication that the Lords elsewhere in the country believe it. And besides even if it is believed that Sansa and Tyrion did it. Neither of those people are representatives of their hosues the way Walder Frey is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Wolf Among Sheep Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 A interesting point. Did not a Sansa kill Joffrey under guest rights too (at least from the perspective of Cersei and the realm)? A guest bringing murder to the house of a host is just as bad as a host killing his guest. I guess the Starks are universally hated because of it then. Even if she did kill Joffrey, to the realm, there are no Starks left to hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 What do you mean by let it slide? Forgot about it or looked past that. The Freys at the Twins she likely knows played their part in the RW. Any Freys with her she knows weren't involved. @Fire Eater This is silly. The holocaust is hated and seen as an evil thing. Germans aren't universally hated because not all Germans were a part of it. The same thing applies here. The Freys being universally hated is far from a fact. It's something that some people have convinced themselves is fact. The truth is, the Freys are widely hated in the Riverlands and the North. The rest of Westeros are pretty neutral about them. You didn't just bring up a false analogy invoking the Holocaust. The problem with that analogy is that only a small minority of Germans were involved in the Holocaust while every able-bodied Frey man (with the exception of Olyvar and Perwyn) at the Twins was involved with the RW. Except they clearly are hated from what we have seen. You forget KL where people are calling for justice for the RW, Davos hates the Freys and thinks they're cursed, and even Bronze Yohn is repulsed by it as exemplified in calling Corbray "a Frey." You're failing to take into account that guest right isn't the oldest and most sacred vows only in the North and riverlands, but all of Westeros. I think your failing to take into account context. Guest right was a pretty big deal in the Middle Ages all the way back to antiquity. It was said to be enforced by Zeus and Odin, not just the gods but the kings of the gods, and with good reason, it was one of the few things that protected people in a dangerous world. Once you broke that rule it was back to the anarchy of everyone vs everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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