JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I like Arya but I don't like her arc for now. I feel her too disconnected with the rest of the story. If we're supposed to "feel" for her because she's a child, I honestly feel zero connection. She's also acquiring, imo, Cersei level of crazy and entitlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 In Arya's mind she was justified in killing Dareon, as far as she knew she was the last Stark alive and she enacted the usual punishment for desertion of the NW. And she did hear him confess to desertion, though he wasn't on trial. I for one think admitting a crime while not under duress is more damning than admitting it when accused. Agreed. Gared wasn't on trial either really... But she found a brother of the NW who had forsaken his vows and his life was then forfeit. She passed the sentence, heard out his last words, and swung the sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durran Durrandon Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I'm curious about that too because George said in an interview that Nymeria has a role to play and I'm usually really bad at guessing what happens next so I'll guess we have to see how they come together.I would love to see Ramsey torn apart by Nymeria's pack. The poetic justice would be fantastic, after he repeatedly raped Jeyne Pool under the premise that she was Arya. Yeah, I know Nymeria is down in the Riverlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 In Arya's mind she was justified in killing Dareon, as far as she knew she was the last Stark alive and she enacted the usual punishment for desertion of the NW. And she did hear him confess to desertion, though he wasn't on trial. I for one think admitting a crime while not under duress is more damning than admitting it when accused.Jack, this is what I meant. It's scary that 'justified in their mind' is in any way, shape or form confused with justified in real life, or has any bearing on the right or wrong of it. Serial killers who murder prostitutes because they are unholy or terrorists who blow up planes all feel justified. Feeling justified is completely irrelevant to the question of being justified, and when you step past that line to the degree where others live and die on your observation based opinion of their actions is where you've gone to a very dark place from which return is highly unlikely. That you repeat the process over and over and with increasing facility is the absolute norm for serial killers and the like. As much as it bothers me that Arya has gone there, readers who think feeling justified is an applicable argument to the question of the right to murder others bothers me more, because in real life that's necessary for all kinds of bad things to occur.There's an awesome scene in Reservoir Dogs where 2 characters have a discussion about their moral codes vis a vis who they kill and who they don't kill. Cops or people who help cops are automatically on the 'to be killed' list, and it's said as though reflective of a moral truth. It's a wonderful scene that illustrates the idea that almost everyone who does horrible things feels justified in doing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I've seen the case that Arya as Mercy is looking more and more like a serial killer, but the thing with Dareon (while certainly ugly) doesn't look like that at all to me. Her reasoning isn't troubling as much as the act itself is. I'd say it was pretty solid considering how she was raised. But there are some who try to point out Eddard's opening execution as a character flaw, so I guess there's room for doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lidsa Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Jack, this is what I meant.It's scary that 'justified in their mind' is in any way, shape or form confused with justified in real life, or has any bearing on the right or wrong of it. Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say she was justified, I stated that in her mind she was justified in killing Dareon. I also didn't make a statement on if it was right or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say she was justified, I stated that in her mind she was justified in killing Dareon. I also didn't make a statement on if it was right or wrong.I apologize for sort of using your post to illustrate my point...that was rude, and I meant to include a comment to that effect but got carried away with my argument and forgot...but I think you're missing what that point was if you feel I assumed that your including that aspect necessarily meant you approved of it.Edit: quick version: the need to point out her feeling justified does not connote approval, but it does suggest that her killings are somehow distinguished from the norm because she felt justified. I say the opposite: feeling justified is what unifies most murderers, not distinguishes them. So including that criteria would be like pointing out that Arya was right-handed. The norm, and there's no reason it's mentioned if the assumption isn't that it means something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muggle Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I dont hate her. I pity her. Her story is probably the saddest one of al the main pov's. Other then her ninja jungle survival in the riverlands I think she is well written. Her story will not end well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Right or wrong in the case of Dareon is surprisingly tricky. If soldiers going AWOL today is punishable, we can definitely say Dareon deserved some sort of reprimand. But then it goes back to "Dareon was forced to go to the Wall!" in which case in Braavos, he's violating his parole as a sex offended (in modern terms.) Then there's the defense that Dareon did nothing wrong and his charge of rape is questionable, something I'm going to try not to get into again :D :leaving: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Right or wrong in the case of Dareon is surprisingly tricky. If soldiers going AWOL today is punishable, we can definitely say Dareon deserved some sort of reprimand. But then it goes back to "Dareon was forced to go to the Wall!" in which case in Braavos, he's violating his parole as a sex offended (in modern terms.) Then there's the defense that Dareon did nothing wrong and his charge of rape is questionable, something I'm going to try not to get into again :D :leaving:No, none of that is essential. What is essential is whether a 10 year old child has/should have any right to decide the life or death question for someone else completely on their own observations.How did we feel about it when Sweetrobin was 'nominally' judging Tyrion's fate, good or bad? And even that mockery was much more justifiable than Arya's actions. That she feels the absolute right to kill others who are no threat to her at all is a very very sad/scary development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 As the last member of House Stark who are very much in support of the NW, yeah. In her mind that's the right call. If Robert is somehow justified because he's the current Arryn lord, I don't see how Arya feeling the same justification as the last member of House Stark isn't relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 As the last member of House Stark who are very much in support of the NW, yeah. In her mind that's the right call. If Robert is somehow justified because he's the current Arryn lord, I don't see how Arya feeling the same justification as the last member of House Stark isn't relevant.*head explodes* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 As the last member of House Stark who are very much in support of the NW, yeah. In her mind that's the right call. If Robert is somehow justified because he's the current Arryn lord, I don't see how Arya feeling the same justification as the last member of House Stark isn't relevant.House Stark are no longer Wardens of the North Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 House Stark are no longer Wardens of the NorthThey were stripped of their title by a regime with a false title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Wolf Among Sheep Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 House Stark are no longer Wardens of the North House Stark has been responsible for executing Night's Watch deserters when they were the Kings of Winter. It's not a right that was bestowed to them, it's a right they've always had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 The thing about the whole murder of Dareon is that it would've been like 1000 times more effective if Arya had been present back when Ned killed Gared and gave his "swing the sword" speechAs it stands, I think she murdered Daeron because of his general dickishness and not so much because of his status as a deserter. Like, I don't think she would've killed a deserter with a more valid excuse than "LOL, I want to fuck whores and get rich" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Wolf Among Sheep Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 The thing about the whole murder of Dareon is that it would've been like 1000 times more effective if Arya had been present back when Ned killed Gared and gave his "swing the sword" speechAs it stands, I think she murdered Daeron because of his general dickishness and not so much because of his status as a deserter. Like, I don't think she would've killed a deserter with a more valid excuse than "LOL, I want to fuck whores and get rich"I guess it's up for interpretation, but to me, she killed him because he's a deserter. She mentions the fact that Dareon is a deserter to the Kindly Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muggle Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I think thats how he tries to justify it. But she killed him because she did not like him imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Wolf Among Sheep Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I think thats how he tries to justify it. But she killed him because she did not like him imo. Like I said, it's up for interpretation, depending on how you feel about the character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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