Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I would like to take the opportunity on the potential dynamics between Jon and Arya, regardless of a sexual or platonic nature. If Martin intended Jon to be the prominent one as exemplified by the wolves, I hope that he realizes that the characters won't work that way anymore. Arya is the much more forceful personality and the more pragmatic one. In many ways she is the more mature one as well, having made hard choices and living through them. She is also the self-reliant one and much more in control of herself (almost inhumanly so). Jon maybe under the misapprehension that Arya would seek his protection; while Arya has always sought him, it was for acceptance and solace. In fact, I would expect to see a reversal of roles with Arya growing protective of Jon.

I agree, and I think it would be lame if they were to follow the wolf pattern. That's one of the reasons, maybe the primary one, that I dislike the pairing; the point that it conveys, willingly (consciously) or not, through the wolves.

(I may be biving it more importance that it actually has, though. Or so I hope.)

[lojzelote]

The question remains. Why do we need this information? We know that about Arya from other sources. Why is it important to know about Nymeria?

Well, I don't know much about mating customs of wolves, but does a she-wolf really kill he-wolves who attempt to court her and are unsuccessful?

I've always taken that part to mean that Nymeria is fearsome and... how to put it... more than feral. A bit like Cannibal the dragon, although he was even worse. Maybe you're right though and future generations of Stargaryens will claim that direwolves don't breed with lesser beasts. ;)

Another possibilty is that's meant to show us what a feral direwolf is truly like; otherwise they have been presented only as cute companions and useful bodyguards for the Stark children. But a direwolf who's not bonded to a human (or whose human just doesn't care) would be bloody dangerous.... and dominant, I guess.

I can't imagine Summer or Ghost hunting people unless they or their warging partner would be at the brink of starvation. Especially not that they would feed on only humans.

[Arya Targaryen]

I would like to take the opportunity on the potential dynamics between Jon and Arya, regardless of a sexual or platonic nature. If Martin intended Jon to be the prominent one as exemplified by the wolves, I hope that he realizes that the characters won't work that way anymore. Arya is the much more forceful personality and the more pragmatic one. In many ways she is the more mature one as well, having made hard choices and living through them. She is also the self-reliant one and much more in control of herself (almost inhumanly so). Jon maybe under the misapprehension that Arya would seek his protection; while Arya has always sought him, it was for acceptance and solace. In fact, I would expect to see a reversal of roles with Arya growing protective of Jon.

I think they would be equals. They would both be protective of the other. And they will accept the other for who he/she is. You are right that Arya is forceful and has a strong personality, but so has Jon. He is a guy who managed to turn possible enemies into friends and even become their leaders - just think of Grenn and co, wildlings, and even Stannis, kind of (he accepted Jon's advice). Even Mel is doing stuff to please Jon.

Jon is not openly agressive, but he cant be, he has to do some political maneuvering. But that doesn't mean he is less stubborn.

Just like Nymeria is more agressive than Ghost - but Ghost was the alpha. I'm not sure if that will change, but I think it won't. Actually, in AGOT, Jon (and Ghost) was the alpha of the Stark-pack (and wolf-pack), even if it wasn't that obvious. There are several threads about it.

(Actually, I've always thought, that if they end up together as king and queen they could rule really effectively, splitting up the job. The fact that they could finish each other's sentences is a sign that they do have similar thought process, so they could effectively guess what the other one would do in a certain situation. So Arya could basically rule when Jon is travelling, because she would practically do the same as Jon. The question is that how much their thought process would change due to all their experiences, and if they would still be able to know what the other one is thinking.)

ETA:

Well, I don't know much about mating customs of wolves, but does a she-wolf really kill he-wolves who attempt to court her and are unsuccessful?

I'm not sure if they kill them, but basically it's only the alpha male who is mating with the alpha female. If any other female gets pregnant, the alpha female will kick her until she miscarries. And she definitely won't let any other male to mount her.

Nymeria killing all those wolves is a hint for me what Arya would do with all the men (except for the alpha- who is, actually, Jon) if they try to, well, uhm.

[Ice Turtle]

I can't imagine Summer or Ghost hunting people unless they or their warging partner would be at the brink of starvation. Especially not that they would feed on only humans.

But Nymeria doesn't feed only humans. That is the only part safely disproved by Arya's own dreams.

[Ice Turtle]

Just like Nymeria is more agressive than Ghost - but Ghost was the alpha. I'm not sure if that will change, but I think it won't.

There isn't enough proof for me to say that you are wrong, but I have a feeling that Ghost stood apart and wasn't part of pack hierarchy and Nymeria was the only one who decided to follow him.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Well, I don't know much about mating customs of wolves, but does a she-wolf really kill he-wolves who attempt to court her and are unsuccessful?

This post in Mladen's wolf project has a lot of info if you want, and the entire project is worth a read too.

[lojzelote]

But Nymeria doesn't feed only humans. That is the only part safely disproved by Arya's own dreams.

Really? Well, she still feeds on men. I doubt that Ghost was preying on unfortunate black brothers or villagers when Jon let him out. (Although that would be a darkly hilarious revelation, lol.)

That source which claims that she feeds on only men is the same source which claims she slays every wolf who attempts to mount her, so maybe they're just making her more monstrous than she really is on both accounts.

This post in Mladen's wolf project has a lot of info if you want, and the entire project is worth a read too.

Thanks!

[Ice Turtle]

Really? Well, she still feeds on men. I doubt that Ghost was preying on unfortunate black brothers or villagers when Jon let him out. (Although that would be a darkly hilarious revelation, lol.)

Probably not, but it seems Jon thinks about it a least once:

He wants to hunt, but what? Jon did not fear for the direwolf so much as for any wildlings he might encounter. A white wolf in a white wood, silent as a shadow. They will never know he’s coming.

[The Sleeper]

Really? Well, she still feeds on men. I doubt that Ghost was preying on unfortunate black brothers or villagers when Jon let him out. (Although that would be a darkly hilarious revelation, lol.)

That source which claims that she feeds on only men is the same source which claims she slays every wolf who attempts to mount her, so maybe they're just making her more monstrous than she really is on both accounts.

Thanks!

Nymeria is a wild animal, there is no moral component to her hunting humans. She eats what she can catch (unfortunately for the people of the riverlands, that occasionally includes them). Though she might have a preference to those wearing crimson, due to Arya's influence.

[Elaena Targaryen]

It also gives me the idea that the various "proxy Aryas" that have been noted are scenes where Arya was supposed to have been but had other plans. Apparently, not even the author can get her to behave.

lol

Really? Well, she still feeds on men. I doubt that Ghost was preying on unfortunate black brothers or villagers when Jon let him out. (Although that would be a darkly hilarious revelation, lol.)

Didn't Summer feed on men or am I misremembering?

[Ice Turtle]

Nymeria is a wild animal, there is no moral component to her hunting humans. She eats what she can catch (unfortunately for the people of the riverlands, that occasionally includes them). Though she might have a preference to those wearing crimson, due to Arya's influence.

Lol, talk about subverting the tropes, in this tale the feral wolf is a little girl and all Little Red Riding Hoods are grown men.

[crazyewok]

It's just creepy. There's already plenty of incest, no reason to add more. Plus, unless GRRM makes the books take a long in-universe time to finish (which he's shown he's incapable of doing) or does a timeskip(which he's also shown he's incapable of doing) then its also pedophilia.

This, it would be beyond F'ed up and ruin the books.

Yuk.

Yuk

Yuk

[Ice Turtle]

This, it would be beyond F'ed up and ruin the books.

Yuk.

Yuk

Yuk

I was almost starting to miss reasonable posts like this.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Well at least, the books will be articulated.

eta - do I really need the sarcasm font?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I felt it is something I must do since it seemed to me you don't get the difference. Because otherwise I don't understand how you can think that he's in love with his nine years old sister just because he's afraid for her and wishes she was with him in safety again. The last time he saw her she was nine and he still thinks of her as a little girl.

The context makes all the difference. It's like manslaughter vs murder, love-making vs random one-night stand vs rape, etc.

That foreshadowing doesn't have to be foreshadowing at all. The only thing which is somewhat solid is Ned's line about Arya marrying a king, but for all we know, she may marry some other king or 'king', because truly I have trouble imagining that Jon would be able to marry for love his first cousin if he became king. Unless his family situation with the Starks is totally scheisse at that point, any other marriage would be more advantageous in a post-war, fragile Westeros.

But hey, I've seen some speculation that a fraction in the Riverlands might crown Gendry similarly to as some Targ bastards were crowned during the Dance of the Dragons, so as a Gendrya shipper, perhaps there's your chance. :P

ETA: And of course there's also the killjoy possibilty that he changed his mind eventually, in which case I hope he changed it sooner rather than later because it would give him much more space to prepare the ground for a new endgame.

The thing about Ned's line is that its twice. He mentions being the 'father to queens' to Cat. So its not just Ned trying to cheer up his daughter who feels inferior to men and to her sister when in the plot she'll be 'inferior' to both officially for the rest of her life. How does it stack up if neither of his daughters become Queens?

Maybe I'm having a hard time verbalising what I mean. Maybe I'm pointing out things the author perhaps wants us to see more than the narrative of feelings. Its obvious GRRM wants us to see a different and special relationship between Arya and Jon. We know what his original intention was, and that explains it. If we follow the Drogo idea, or even Cat and Robb, that the plot ends the same but the lead up is different, Arya still probably ends up Queen right? 'Is Jon in love with his sister?' is not what I'm seeing, I'm seeing GRRM laying the foundations. So if it happens we'll say 'Of course he loves Arya, he clearly loves deadly, capable, active, wild, willful, stubborn, independent, forthright, martial women.' But you have to say that in Dance his dialogue reads 'He better not touch her, she belongs with me'. As evidenced by the 'home' line and the times he says 'if he tries to touch her she will kill him, I wish I could kill him'. Maybe that is inappropriate, its confusing. But maybe that is a flaw in the writing, Jon's acting like outline Jon without the outline plot to back it up. Or it could be what we discussed earlier, GRRM seems to be thinking that he'll just do the story anyway even if she is 12.

Gendry is so superior. I'll give you that one. Superior bastard. :p

[lojzelote]

Didn't Summer feed on men or am I misremembering?

He fed on human meat, but there was no other prey and those men he found were already dead, he didn't hunt them down. IIRC they were the 'pork' which Coldhands brought to Bran and the Reed children.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Gendry is so superior. I'll give you that one. Superior bastard. :P

And either as a bull or as a stag, he's so herbivore :devil:

:)

[crazyewok]

Well at least, the books will be articulated.

eta - do I really need the sarcasm font?

I was not aware I was writing a book?

Forgive me for not finding pedophillia to be a great ending to a story arc.

[lojzelote]

The thing about Ned's line is that its twice. He mentions being the 'father to queens' to Cat. So its not just Ned trying to cheer up his daughter who feels inferior to men and to her sister when in the plot she'll be 'inferior' to both officially for the rest of her life. How does it stack up if neither of his daughters become Queens?

Gendry is so superior. I'll give you that one. Superior bastard. :P

But why does it have to be foreshadowing? It's just another part of his "everything was meant for Brandon" shtick. A daughter of a second son is unlikely to become queen (unless she happens to be very pro-active like Alicent Hightower, lol) and he wouldn't have to espouse her to Joff, whom he obviously doesn't like. It's tied to the situation at hand.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why you would think it could be foreshadowing, but I'm just not convinced.

I prefer Mya. She's the oldest, too. :P

[Ice Turtle]

I was not aware I was writing a book?

Forgive me for not finding pedophillia to be a great ending to a story arc.

I think that Arya will be 13 or 14, maybe older by the time Jon shows any interest in her. But even without that....

In Westeros attraction to girls who had their first period is not considered socially unacceptable or unlawful, even in RL pedophillia is most often defined as attraction to prepubescent children. Arya has probably few months left of this phase (likely less than a book) and I do not think she will reunite with Jon in that time.

Asking with sincere curiosity do you consider Sandor, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Trystane, Drogo and Rhaegar to be pedophiles? They were all attracted to girls younger than fourteen.