If Stannis was Aware of Daenerys...

[RainGhost]

Stannis will never bend the knee, especially not to a girl. He believes he is the One True King and nothing will change that. He fought to depose the Targaryens and believes that the Baratheons are now the only rightful kings of all of Westeros that there can ever be and he is Robert's rightful heir. Even if Dany does conquer King's Landing, I can't see Stannis giving up his claim.

Not to mention, he would be stupid to try it. Stannis held Storm's End, chased Dany and her brother from Dragonstone and ruled there as lord ever since. No way Dany's forgiving him for that. At best, she would send him to the Wall but probably she would want him dead. I can't even blame her for that.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Stannis will never bend the knee, especially not to a girl. He believes he is the One True King and nothing will change that. He fought to depose the Targaryens and believes that the Baratheons are now the only rightful kings of all of Westeros that there can ever be and he is Robert's rightful heir. Even if Dany does conquer King's Landing, I can't see Stannis giving up his claim.

Not to mention, he would be stupid to try it. Stannis held Storm's End, chased Dany and her brother from Dragonstone and ruled there as lord ever since. No way Dany's forgiving him for that. At best, she would send him to the Wall but probably she would want him dead. I can't even blame her for that.

Assuming that Stannis was willing to bend the knee. I think an alliance could be possible. It would be in Dany's interest to pardon as many people as bend the knee. What she needs more than anything are knights, which Stannis has. Of course, she may just send him to the wall and take his men. But it might be more advantageous to pardon him, particularly if his men are very loyal (which at least the King's men seem to be - and he might even bring the loyalty of the NORTH with him, assuming he is able to seat Rickon in Winterfell!).

I tend to agree it won't be that easy, though. Stannis and Dany are both insanely stubborn...

[exigez]

Something more to think about:

Stannis and Mel are trying to wake a dragon. They need to wake a dragon not only to fight the Others but also to prove that Stannis is AA. His going to have a hard time chewing on his claim when Danny shows up with 3 dragons. I'm sure it'll undermine his resolution in his claim.

[RainGhost]

Assuming that Stannis was willing to bend the knee. I think an alliance could be possible. It would be in Dany's interest to pardon as many people as bend the knee. What she needs more than anything are knights, which Stannis has. Of course, she may just send him to the wall and take his men. But it might be more advantageous to pardon him, particularly if his men are very loyal (which at least the King's men seem to be - and he might even bring the loyalty of the NORTH with him, assuming he is able to seat Rickon in Winterfell!).

I tend to agree it won't be that easy, though. Stannis and Dany are both insanely stubborn...

Stannis doesn't do alliances. Stannis believes he is owed the fealty of everyone. I'm sure he would accept an oath of fealty from Dany (not that she would ever give one). I agree that it would be in Dany's interest to pardon anyone who bends the knee but I'm not sure she would extend that to people like Stannis and Jaime Lannister because they actually conspired at the downfall of her House. Stannis doesn't have many knights and with Stannis dead, they would either bend the knee or be easy enough to kill. The way to win the North is to win the Starks, not Stannis. Stannis offers her virtually nothing and would not present much of an opposition because of his tiny army.

Otherwise, I agree that an alliance would be the sensible option. But when does anyone (especially Stannis) ever take the sensible option in ASOIAF? Besides, there's too much blood between Stannis and Dany.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

No, I think there's a difference between opinion and fact. An unproven/unprovable opinion that just happens to make you King is a terrible basis for breaking the law/your duty. I don't think he only believed it because of his ambition, but I think ambition filled in a lot of the space between suspicion and certainty.

Just think about how it would sound if we didn't have POV on the twincest/Cersei's admission. Well, that's all Stannis has.

Oh, and we know Jon Arryn was very suspicious, but we don't know if he was certain, and he had done a lot more homework on the issue than Stannis had.

Would you say the same of Ned who was willing to alter Robert's will based on fairly similar evidence? He is also acting against his duty in a pretty significant way by potentially making the heir far more ambiguous which has all sorts of repercussions. We don't even know how much action Stannis would have taken if like 4 other factions didn't just suddenly appear to rebel or make their own claim pushing him to make a move.

I think his cynicism/insecurity and necessity played a much larger role than pure ambition in filling in any knowledge gaps.

[exigez]

Ned had a lot more than Stannis and Jon. He had a confession from Cersei. By the time Robert died, he knew everything.

[Steve Stark]

I don't think he would bend the knee when his family already overthrew the Targs.

At the same time, if any of those dragons become even slightly controlled by Dany, I don't think anyone has much choice. Mel can tell him he's the chosen one right up until the time Drogon makes her eyeballs melt away from her face. If Dany shows up with dragons, that is her claim. Especially if she maintains control of an army to back that claim.

Don't get me wrong, I like Stannis. But he's no fool. He won't go up against a dragon, and more than that, he'll realize really quickly that it was his family who deposed her family, and that will put him in a very awkward position. If he kneels in front of her, he might just take off his head simply for being related to Robert, who tried to have her killed on multiple occasions. Not to mention, men under his rebellion killed her family members and that's what she's been told all her life. Years of that festering in her mind....if she's on the back of Drogon I would not want to be in the same vicinity as Stannis.

Now she might not have control of dragons. Or she may be more focused on the Others and things don't quite play out that way. Who really knows? Either way, I see him stepping to the side and getting out of the way more than I see him kneeling in front of her or fighting for her.

[darkdude103]

stannis has a bigger claim to the throne than dany right of conquest guys

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

Ned had a lot more than Stannis and Jon. He had a confession from Cersei. By the time Robert died, he knew everything.

He was going to act anyway, if I remember correctly he got the confession when he was warning her to get out.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Stannis only fought on the side of the rebellion because he couldn't go against his own brother, and of course there's also that Aerys was totally off his rocker. If he finds out that there's someone else who has a decent/better claim (and Dany was never barred from the throne as far as we know) he would probably be relieved to bend the knee. He doesn't want to be king anyway.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

stannis has a bigger claim to the throne than dany right of conquest guys

For the thousandth time, it's not conquest. Robert did not invade Westeros and conquer the nation. He did not "win" the throne by killing Rhaegar, he didn't even start the war! If you want to claim right of anything the proper term is Right of Arms.

And no, Stannis doesn't necessarily have a bigger claim than Dany does. When the council offered the throne to Robert, they passed over Viserys and probably barred him and any of his descendants from inheriting, but they probably didn't think to bar an unborn child who--based on Rhaella's history--had a good chance of being stillborn or dying within a year of birth. People keep forgetting that the Baratheon claim comes through their father's mother who was a Targaryen princess.

[James Arryn]

Would you say the same of Ned who was willing to alter Robert's will based on fairly similar evidence?

Ned had Cersei's confession. That's an extraordinarily higher degree of certainty.

He is also acting against his duty in a pretty significant way by potentially making the heir far more ambiguous which has all sorts of repercussions. We don't even know how much action Stannis would have taken if like 4 other factions didn't just suddenly appear to rebel or make their own claim pushing him to make a move.

Ambition fits every decision Stannis makes. All other motives people attribute to him sometimes fit, sometimes don't. It's not that tricky once you treat his comments about duty with the same skepticism we treat every other non-POV's statements about themself and their motivations. (and it doesn't make him a bad guy, either.)

[WSmith84]

No, I think there's a difference between opinion and fact. An unproven/unprovable opinion that just happens to make you King is a terrible basis for breaking the law/your duty. I don't think he only believed it because of his ambition, but I think ambition filled in a lot of the space between suspicion and certainty.

Just think about how it would sound if we didn't have POV on the twincest/Cersei's admission. Well, that's all Stannis has.

Oh, and we know Jon Arryn was very suspicious, but we don't know if he was certain, and he had done a lot more homework on the issue than Stannis had.

That's a fair point.

[TallTyrion]

Ned had Cersei's confession. That's an extraordinarily higher degree of certainty.

Ambition fits every decision Stannis makes. All other motives people attribute to him sometimes fit, sometimes don't. It's not that tricky once you treat his comments about duty with the same skepticism we treat every other mon-POV's statements about themself and their motivations.

He got that confession after he was already prepared to act on his suspicions. Cersei denying the charge in that confrontation wouldn't have changed what Ned was planning.

[Pod The Impaler]

We all know Stannis and his feelings about his duty. He Spoke at length about his dilemmas with supporting Robert over his rightful king with Davos.

What would he do when Daenerys presents herself? She clearly has the better claim (if we ommit (f)Aegon), or at least a claim he cannot dismiss as illegal.

From my understanding of the man, he will give up his claim and support her even to a point he would believe he has to be punished for usurping the throne.

Any other thoughts?

Stannis would claim his right to the throne extends from two things:

1 - Heir of Robert of House Baratheon which usurped House Targaryen by right of conquest. (As Aegon I conquered the other houses to begin with, this is legit... if you win.)

2 - Ahor Azai reborn. He is the king that must be, for the greater good.

Of the two, #2 is the most important. If Dany - or someone else - is the true savior, then I don't see him having any great desire to hang on the crown for reason #1 alone. He would feel Storm's End should be his, at least - and the Lannisters with their abominations still get jack shit.

However, there is the little matter of the things Stannis did already to assert his kingship... *cough*shadow*cough* ... Sins may be forgiven but crimes must be punished.

Now, if Dany wants to take what Stannis feels is his, she has 3 options:

1 - Defeat him in battle, lightbringer and all. Right of conquest fulfilled. (And AAR disproven ?)

2 - Convince him to abdicate - this can only depend on his not being the AAR. If convinced of that he might accept he was not meant to be king.

3 - Marry him for politics and live as King Stannis and Queen Daenerys ?! (Well, this is very unlikely, yet stranger things have happened.)

[James Arryn]

He got that confession after he was already prepared to act on his suspicions. Cersei denying the charge in that confrontation wouldn't have changed what Ned was planning.

His plan at the time was to tell Robert. He wasn't convicting anyone of anything; he was going to pass on what he knew. Then she confessed, at which point he even acknowledges that he'd had doubts until that moment.

[TallTyrion]

His plan at the time was to tell Robert. He wasn't convicting anyone of anything; he was going to pass on what he knew. Then she confessed, at which point he even acknowledges that he'd had doubts until that moment.

He was very much convicting Cersei and her children. "passing on what he knew" in this instance means certain death for Cersei and her children, which is precisely why they are having this conversation in the first place.

[exigez]

Stannis only fought on the side of the rebellion because he couldn't go against his own brother, and of course there's also that Aerys was totally off his rocker. If he finds out that there's someone else who has a decent/better claim (and Dany was never barred from the throne as far as we know) he would probably be relieved to bend the knee. He doesn't want to be king anyway.

For the thousandth time, it's not conquest. Robert did not invade Westeros and conquer the nation. He did not "win" the throne by killing Rhaegar, he didn't even start the war! If you want to claim right of anything the proper term is Right of Arms.

And no, Stannis doesn't necessarily have a bigger claim than Dany does. When the council offered the throne to Robert, they passed over Viserys and probably barred him and any of his descendants from inheriting, but they probably didn't think to bar an unborn child who--based on Rhaella's history--had a good chance of being stillborn or dying within a year of birth. People keep forgetting that the Baratheon claim comes through their father's mother who was a Targaryen princess.

This is the law, and we know Stannis is a big sucker for whats 'lawful', ambition or no. So this puts him in a pickle. I don't know what Stannis will eventually DO, but I do think it'll make him more than question himself and his claim.

Also, don't forget Davos. This dude basically acts as Stannis's conscience. What would Davos advise him to do?

This is my first ever thread here, really happy I managed to start an interesting debate. Hope everybody's having fun :)

[TallTyrion]

This is the law, and we know Stannis is a big sucker for whats 'lawful', ambition or no. So this puts him in a pickle. I don't know what Stannis will eventually DO, but I do think it'll make him more than question himself and his claim.

Also, don't forget Davos. This dude basically acts as Stannis's conscience. What would Davos advise him to do?

This is my first ever thread here, really happy I managed to start an interesting debate. Hope everybody's having fun :)

When the King dies without any true born children his brother inherits. That's the only Law Stannis gives a damn about.

[exigez]

When the King dies without any true born children his brother inherits. That's the only Law Stannis gives a damn about.

Your making Stannis look like a gangster. I think his an ass but not a hypocrite. He has a firm belief that order must be maintained and justice be served.