Why are there no lesser nobles?

[Byfort of Corfe]

We have Kings and Queens and Princes and Princesses but the only other hereditary title in the 7 Kingdoms seems to be Lord or Lady. No Dukes or Earls or Duchesses or Barons. Sure we have Wardens but those seem to be offices (like the Hand or Master of Coin) rather than a hereditary position. I've read the 5 books and didn't find an answer there but maybe it's explained in some of the ancillary guides.

[Gibzit]

I know there are some Masterly houses in the North (Glovers) and Knightly houses in the south (Osgrey) which are less than knights.

Of course it is quite easy to see that some houses are higher up than others, since some lords are sworn to other lords (the Beesburys are sworn to the Higtowers who are sworn to the Tyrells for example).

Unlike the real world, however there is no difference in the titles of these people.

[Kaibaman]

George RR Martin did say he now regrets not coming up with titles to distinguish the different rankings of the Westerosi feudal hierarchy. I guess it was an oversight on his part.

[Bronn Urgandy]

I am going to go out on a limb here, and say "hassle"

[Ser Leftwich]

[Lack of variety in noble titles.]

"The number of titles of medieval nobility multiplied over times, as the feudal system became more complex and the social structure more layered, with various degrees of precedence, etc. In the earlier periods -- say, England around the time of Henry I and William II Rufus -- all those different titles did not exist. I prefered the simplicity of those times. In hindsight, I probably should have added a least one more title to differentiate the great houses from their vassals, but I am glad I stayed clear of using the whole roster of noble stylings."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat

[Ser Skwisgaar]

There are "Marcher Lords" which is basically "Marquis".

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Meh. More depth and layering? Who needs it?

It may have been cool to have but I can live without it. Perhaps it was something of a form of egalitarianism among lords. Its hard enough having to bow to kings and queens. Imagine the shitstorm whipped up by all these ranks and courtesies. Walking around KL or going to a party or dinner would have been hell.

[LionOfCasterlyRock]

There are Lords paramount at the top and landed knights at the bottom. But in between it can get a bit confusing. But it's a minor thing.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

There are "Marcher Lords" which is basically "Marquis".

Not really, no. I mean, while that's how "marquis" came to life in our world, in Westeros "marcher lords" aren't a rank, only a geographical description. Just like stormlords from the Stormlands and river lords in the Riverlands (we've yet to meet swamplords and sandlords, I think).

[James Steller]

Not really, no. I mean, while that's how "marquis" came to life in our world, in Westeros "marcher lords" aren't a rank, only a geographical description. Just like stormlords from the Stormlands and river lords in the Riverlands (we've yet to meet swamplords and sandlords, I think).

Don't forget westerlords, reachlords, northlords (I prefer the term winterlords for the North, though), and crownlords.

[Byfort of Corfe]

Regarding early Medieval England's lack of titles,

Well, not actually. William I was of course Duke of Normandy, a title that he passed to his sons. Duke having come from the Latin Dux, meaning leader. Earls existed (they had largely been a Saxon term). Barons also existed, the term again having come from France with the Normans. Counts also existed.

Beyond that since the 7 Kingdoms are hundreds of years old you would assume (at least I would) that there was time to develop a more intricate system to delineate why the Karstarks are not the equal of the Starks on the political ladder. Although since they don't have things like scutage or wergeld I guess that's to be expected. But I guess the best reason is what Kaibaman said, that Martin simply didn't think of it and now it's too late.

Thanks to all.

[Kaibaman]

Beyond that since the 7 Kingdoms are hundreds of years old you would assume (at least I would) that there was time to develop a more intricate system to delineate why the Karstarks are not the equal of the Starks on the political ladder. Although since they don't have things like scutage or wergeld I guess that's to be expected. But I guess the best reason is what Kaibaman said, that Martin simply didn't think of it and now it's too late.

Thanks to all.

One problem I have with this analysis is since the Starks have bent the knee, besides already holding the rank of Wardens in the North, what lordly title would the Starks have to distinguish them from the Karstarks. I presume in the real world the other kingdoms such as Stormlands, Reach, Westerlands and the Riverlands would all be considered duchies and the Lord of Casterly Rock for example would be a duke. The Starks are on equal footing with the other high lords, however the North is larger than the other seven kingdoms combined and some of its fiefs are as large as the Westerlands. Would the Starks also attain the rank of duke with the Karstarks as counts? Or would they get an even grander title like Archduke and their most powerful bannermen like the Karstarks become dukes instead?

[LogicalLeopard]

Not really, no. I mean, while that's how "marquis" came to life in our world, in Westeros "marcher lords" aren't a rank, only a geographical description. Just like stormlords from the Stormlands and river lords in the Riverlands (we've yet to meet swamplords and sandlords, I think).

Well, but really it still is a rank of sorts. If Lord X is a marcher lord, and Lord Y is a normal interior lord, the marcher lord may be more powerful and valuable because he protects the borders.

By the way, I like the lack of titles. The lesser lords are only as important as the men they can raise, the wealth they have, and maybe their history of distinction. They compete against each other and no one gets lax. You distinguish yourself, you can expand your territory. Hopefully your neighbor doesn't, and you can get some of his stuff.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I think it is fairly obvious who are the major lords (dukes) and who are the minor lords (earls); however, I think because of the nature of the story it does not really matter. The Starks are the power in the north, yet the Bolton's supplant them. Bolton's are easily a minor house compared to the Starks, and so on. If Martin would have use the varying degrees of title aside from Lord and knighthood, it might have turned into a confusing mess when say Bolton takes over the North. There are a lot of people who would have been confused if there were an Earl of Bolton and Lord Bolton, warden of the North.

By referring to everyone as a Lord, Martin could avoid that uncomfortable dilemma that would come with say a marquis taking KL. In a sense, he has reduced all the houses to petty lords, only some have more power than others. It helps avoid any weird situations where a member of the lower nobility seizes power (which would just look silly if you know the political structure of medieval England). It also essentially opens the field up to a number of contestants for the throne, sort of. You will not find say a marquis of Cornwall taking power in the Wars of the Roses, he would lend his support to his overlord. In this story, it sort of became a free for all..... Not that Martin gave this any thought.....

[analeigh]

More titles would probably just confuse a majority of the readers who aren't familiar with noble titles and ranks. Even History students in my upper level college history course on English History had trouble keeping track of the players, titles, and houses in the War of the Roses. Neville, Percy, Beaufort, York, Lancaster, Warwick, Salisbury, Northumberland, Buckingham, Stafford, Clarence, Gloucester, Somerset. Know which are the families and the titles they had? Get's confusing right? And that's not even taking into account their family homes. At least in Westeros the noble houses are also defined by their homes ie. Lord Stark of Winterfell.

If you really need to define them by distinct noble titles, the Great Houses would be Dukes. The major noble houses and bannermen are Earls. Masterly Houses would be Viscounts. Other lesser lords are Barons and Baronets. Like how it was in English History, sometimes titles died out, some were absorbed by other families in the absence of a legitimate male heir, some were supplanted, some were forfeited due to the family being attainted.

Example in English history for comparison: The Neville family acquired the Earl of Salisbury and the Earl of Warwick titles by marrying the sole female heirs. The Earl of Warwick especially won because his wife was the sole heir to both her parents noble families: the beauchamps (Warwick) and the despenser families.

Doesn't it all make sense now why Sansa was a threat to leave unwed on the marriage market? Winterfell, a step and a half from inheriting Riverrun, and familial ties to the Vale. If she'd married Willas, that could've been one hell of a power bloc alliance.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well actually, the Starks, Arryns, Lannisters etc are the equivalent of European kings.

The Karstarks, Royces, Boltons etc are the dukes, and even the likes of House Karstark rule territories larger than the entire England.

Petty lords are the equivalent of earls and lower, and it is among the petty lords that there should be wider variety.

The Targs are more like Emperors, ruling an amalgamation of very large, and very diverse self contained kingdoms.

[Jaak]

Compare Eastern Europe. Who knew and had contact with noble titles of Western Europe, starting with Germany - but rejected them. In Hungary and Poland, all nobles were equal in law and titulature. There were huge differences in wealth between Polish magnates and poor szlachta - but the title was just "pan" for all.

It probably represents a deliberate policy, not only by Targaryens but by Kings before them. When High King Robar Royce fell, ser Artos took the title of King - not specifying "High King" as Robar had done. No one else in Vale was a King at all, and Royce of Runestone was just a Lord equal to Baelish of Sheepshit.

[Bluetiger]

Compare Eastern Europe. Who knew and had contact with noble titles of Western Europe, starting with Germany - but rejected them. In Hungary and Poland, all nobles were equal in law and titulature. There were huge differences in wealth between Polish magnates and poor szlachta - but the title was just "pan" for all.

It probably represents a deliberate policy, not only by Targaryens but by Kings before them. When High King Robar Royce fell, ser Artos took the title of King - not specifying "High King" as Robar had done. No one else in Vale was a King at all, and Royce of Runestone was just a Lord equal to Baelish of Sheepshit.

In Poland it was messy as hell before they decided that " noble in a cottage is equal to voivod"

There were also Lithuanian Houses who wanted to keep their titles after the Union.

For example House Radziwill were Grand Dukes of Lithuania.

[Bluetiger]

From Wikipedia:

" TitlesArchduke, ruler of an archduchy; used by the rulers of Austria; it was also used by the Habsburgs and Habsburg-Lorraines of the Holy Roman Empire,Austrian Empire, and the Austro-Hungarian Empire for imperial family members of the dynasty, each retaining it as a subsidiary title when founding sovereign cadet branches by acquiring thrones under different titles (e.g.,Tuscany, Modena); it was also used for those ruling some Habsburg territories such as those that became the modern BeNeLux (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg) nationsGrand Prince, ruler of a grand principality; a title primarily used in the medieval Russian principalities; it was also used by the Romanovs of theRussian Empire for members of the imperial family, although more commonly translated into English asGrand DukeDuke, ruler[1] of a duchy,[2] also for junior members of ducal and some grand ducal familiesPrince, Prinz in German; junior members of a royal, grand ducal, ruling ducal or princely, or mediatised family. The title of Fürst was usually reserved, from the 19th century, for rulers of principalities—the smallest sovereign entities (e.g., Liechtenstein, Lippe, Schwarzburg, Waldeck-and-Pyrmont) -- and for heads of high-ranking, noble but non-ruling families (Bismarck, Clary und Aldringen, Dietrichstein, Henckel von Donnersmarck, Kinsky, Paar, Pless, Thun und Hohenstein, etc.). Cadets of these latter families were generally not allowed to use Prinz, being accorded only the style of count (Graf) or, occasionally, that of Fürst (Wrede, Palffy d'Erdod) even though it was also a ruling title. Exceptional use of Prinz was permitted for some morganatic families (e.g., Battenberg, Montenuovo) and a few others (Carolath-Beuthen, Biron von Kurland).In particular Crown prince,Kronprinz in German, was reserved for the heir apparent of an emperor or kingDauphin, title of the crown prince of the royal family of FranceInfante, title of the cadet members of the royal families of Portugal and SpainElector, Kurfürst in German, a rank for those who voted for the Holy Roman Emperor, usually sovereign of a state (e.g. the Margrave of Brandenburg, an elector, called the Elector of Brandenburg)Marquess, Margrave, or Marquis was the ruler of a marquessate, margraviate, or marchLandgrave, a German title, ruler of a landgraviateCount, theoretically the ruler of acounty; known as an Earl in modern Britain; known as a Serdar in Montenegro and SerbiaViscount (vice-count), theoretically the ruler of a viscounty or viscountcyFreiherr, holder of an allodial barony.Freiherr coming from the German "Free-Man"[citation needed]Baron, theoretically the ruler of abarony – some barons in some countries may have been "free barons" (liber baro) and as such, regarded (themselves) as higher barons."

[Bluetiger]

In ASOIAF universe there are:

King

Royal/Crown prince

Members of small council:

Queen Regent

Lord Regent

Dowager Queen

Lord Protector of the Realm

Lord High Admiral

Lord Grand Admiral

Master of Coin

Master of Ships

Lord Treasurer

Master of Whisperers

Mistress of Whisperers

Maester ranks:

Maester

Grand Maester

Archmaester

Lord Castellan

Castellan

Seneschal

Lord Seneschal

Lord Commander of The Kingsguard

Lord Commander of The Night's Watch

Lord Commander of The City Watch of King's Landing

Commanders of City Watches:

- of Oldtown

- of Lannisport

- of King's Landing

Knight of...

Ser

Marcher lord ( equivalent of marquis )

Master of....

Lord of.......

Lord Paramount of....

Warden. .... ( military title)

In Essos :

- archon

- triarch

- magister

- king

- emperor

- khal

- jhat