What is Dorne's Real Strength?

[naseridrl]

Dorne will never have a huge force to project outwards. But its a place tailor made for defending itself and sitting tight and using guerilla tactics. Dorne strength is its environment and it's alien geography compared to what most invaders will be used to. Plus your fighting force when defending your home is always far far larger than any army you'd ever send to fight elsewhere.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Real strenght? Universal conscription for both genders.

Not even Germany in spring WW2 would have managed to get benefits out of that and that was the situation where the highest percentage of the population ever was under arms.

It's economically impossible. Not in "we'll have to default on our debts" impossible, "got nothing to eat tomorrow and will starve before ever seeing an enemy" impossible.

About 1% of the total population is the limit Dornish economy can manage, give or take. The percentage of fit men of the right age is going to be a mite bigger.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Over 9000

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I think they are more than mildly relevant... by the time they march supporting Dany or Aegon all of the other kingdoms minus the Vale have been engaged in warfare for a long time and are unprepared for the coming winter

A fresh fighting force backing either Dany or Aegon should put either over the top so to speak

Apart from the 90,000 Reachmen under arms who are still alive and outnumber the Dornish 3 to 1.

[John Doe]

90.000 is a bit too much I believe. Catelyn noted that Renly overestimated his size when talking about having 100.000 men (she is probably not the best source though) and there where no battles and people from the stormlands included. So less than 100.000 minus probably a few ten thousand stormlanders minus men who died in battle minus men who are busy in Kings Landing, Storms End, fighting the Ironborn and the Riverlands isn't that much, although still overwhelming.

But then there are the "friends in the reach", the GC, maybe a few minor Targaryen loyalists, men from the Stormlands, and, as I said, the Ironborn, to make things a bit more even.

[Blow My Horn]

Their strength is the resiliency to make the opponent hate warring with them, similar to Russia in days of yore. "You want Dorne? We will see how much your men are willing to pay."

[RobOsevens]

Ive always assumed/anticipated that the Reachmen would be involved with helping to deal with the Ironborn I should've made that clear

[Stringer Bill]

The Martells have connections all over Essos. I think it might be possible that his 50 K might be including some sell swords or pacts he may secretly have. The faith of the 7 and Dorne seem to be in a pact as well

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Arianne's nipples.

Bewaaaare, Griff!

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

Arianne's nipples.

Bewaaaare, Griff!

It's certainly enough to scare Big Griff away

[Mikkel]

I think they are more than mildly relevant... by the time they march supporting Dany or Aegon all of the other kingdoms minus the Vale have been engaged in warfare for a long time and are unprepared for the coming winter

A fresh fighting force backing either Dany or Aegon should put either over the top so to speak

I'm going to have to disagree. This is medieval warfare, where upper body strength is King, and women - statistically - are severely lacking in that. It may be politically incorrect, but it is bloody well biologically correct, so I'll stick with that. That's ignoring the vital role women play in making sure there's a functioning country to come back to when large numbers of fighting-age men have left for war (many of whom won't come back).

I get the draw of the egalitarian Dornish society, and I think it's great etc etc in principle*, but from a military point of view it's mostly inconsequential at best, disastrous at worst. You open up yourself to a significantly larger part of your population being killed, and as I said - if this still doesn't even put them on an equal footing, numbers-wise, as the other nations - they are not going to be doing themselves any favors. In the event of an invasion, where you're largely fighting for survival it may make more sense, but it's no secret that defense is Dorne's specialty, that and guerilla warfare.

*I always pick Dorne in the regular "where in Westeros would you want to live" threads, partly for this reason.

[Sword of the Morgan]

The sun.

[James Arryn]

25-30k. It's pretty big although the centre is desert. Coast and along rivers and in the mountains is no different to most other places in Westeros. The is probably easy 12k men in the mountains, given the strength of the marcher lords.

The world book specifically says the Dornish coasts and rivers are in fact abnormaly inhospitable. The mountains sound ok, though.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

The world book specifically says the Dornish coasts and rivers are in fact abnormaly inhospitable. The mountains sound ok, though.

Really? Weird. I imagine they aren't completely inhospitable, that's absurd.

Green blood is very fertile, and there's towns, so 25k is still reasonable.

[Lord Lannister]

As many as the plot requires.

[LordPathera]

I'm going to have to disagree. This is medieval warfare, where upper body strength is King, and women - statistically - are severely lacking in that. It may be politically incorrect, but it is bloody well biologically correct, so I'll stick with that. That's ignoring the vital role women play in making sure there's a functioning country to come back to when large numbers of fighting-age men have left for war (many of whom won't come back).

I get the draw of the egalitarian Dornish society, and I think it's great etc etc in principle*, but from a military point of view it's mostly inconsequential at best, disastrous at worst. You open up yourself to a significantly larger part of your population being killed, and as I said - if this still doesn't even put them on an equal footing, numbers-wise, as the other nations - they are not going to be doing themselves any favors. In the event of an invasion, where you're largely fighting for survival it may make more sense, but it's no secret that defense is Dorne's specialty, that and guerilla warfare.

*I always pick Dorne in the regular "where in Westeros would you want to live" threads, partly for this reason.

Noted. But what does any of this have to do with being a large force that's relatively fresh to the conflicts of Westeros on the side of Dany or Aegon's considerately strong forces whereas nearly every other kingdom is either weakened, divided, or disinterested in defending the Lannister-Tyrell Crown?

[Mikkel]

Noted. But what does any of this have to do with being a large force that's relatively fresh to the conflicts of Westeros on the side of Dany or Aegon's considerately strong forces whereas nearly every other kingdom is either weakened, divided, or disinterested in defending the Lannister-Tyrell Crown?

I'm just saying that an egalitarian recruitment policy doesn't have a lot to do with that, either. It's mostly down to Doran keeping Dorne out of the fighting so far, much like Lysa Arryn did for the Vale. I'm also saying that fresh though the Dornish forces may be, they are still not enough to do much on their own, but yes of course they will be a boon to whoever they decide to back - my money is on Aegon, I think Quentyn's fate will keep them away from Daenerys (no comment on whether that is fair or not), and I can't really see them backing anyone else. They may just be content to sit back and let everyone else batter themselves to pieces though, that's what they've done so far.

[James Arryn]

Really? Weird. I imagine they aren't completely inhospitable, that's absurd.

Green blood is very fertile, and there's towns, so 25k is still reasonable.

Well, it may or may not be absurd, but it's written that way, very expressly so, even to the point of IB anecdotes about the pointlessness of ever making shore even if you manage to get past all the death traps; no wood, no food, no water, no villages. Just sand and/or scrub.

The Greenblood is talked about as meh by world standards, but a godsend for Dorne. The Torrentine is too fast and broken to use, and all the others are festering, stinky and pestilential and often dried up in summer.

[TallTyrion]

Really? Weird. I imagine they aren't completely inhospitable, that's absurd.

Green blood is very fertile, and there's towns, so 25k is still reasonable.

Doesn't Vicatarion say there's pretty much no anchorage anywhere on the south coast of Dorne? If that's the case it's not surprising that it's inhospitable

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Doesn't Vicatarion say there's pretty much no anchorage anywhere on the south coast of Dorne? If that's the case it's not surprising that it's inhospitable

For a fleet the size of the Iron Fleet yeah. Of course there will be people there. Obviously just not many.

People always live near the coast. Look where most cities are.

People live along the northern coast that the Sea of Dorne, and to say there is no one on the southern coast... Well, that's not going to be true. Obviously it's just not a lot. I imagine north of thr Greenblooe from Sunspear to the Broken Arm would be people. People would also live higher concentrated near the Salt Shore, Lemonwood and between there. Otherwise there wouldn't be castles there.

I figure if the Marcherlords can field ~8000 then the Mountsin lords of Dorne could field almost 13-15k, since their mountains are much larger. Must have high concentration along those rivers.

Then. The rest of Dorne would be around 12k. It's a huge area.