Red Crabs, Spiders and Conquerors - The Others revealed

[Tharvot]

Interesting theory, though if the lord in sistertown were giving up his sons to the WW, I guess he would have to do so by ship? Don't think any WWs are coming south of the wall to pick up baby drop-offs.

[LmL]

I would like to just strangle this babe in the cradle before it grows up to be a big scary annoying Internet troll:

"See that he stays safe and warm. For his mothers sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.

Arya , he thought, hoping it was so. Ashes and cinders.

Kings and dragons.

Dragons again . For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dallas boy, not your monster. A word in the kings ear would have been the end of it.

If Jon is having waking dragon dreams, he is a Targaryen. Dany had these prior to hatching the eggs. Tyrion has them - he's a fucking Targrayen too. Get over it everyone. Maester Aemon has them. One of the Dunk and Egg Blackfyres, I THINK had an experience like this too (don't have those on ebook to check). None of these Targaryens have ever seen a dragon, but something in their blood makes them hear the wings and almost see the dragons. It's a very distinct phenomena, and it only happens to Targaryens. Like Jon. Who also dreams of being Azor Ahai, warrior of fire. Azor Ahai means "fire dragon." Because Jon is half fire dragon.

Die, die, die. You've no place here, evil spirits of poor literary analysis! George is not a bad writer, he does not troll his readers. R+L=J, or both are true. And neither is.

Now please return to crabs and Others and forget I said anything (after your subconscious of absorbs the information of course).

[Taenqyrhae]

Are there any other examples of stuff that was alluded to in very vague symbolic ways in food descriptions that have been proven true? This theory really seems to be stretching it's symbolism and based on stuff that could easily have other reasons - why is the keep depicted as having a storm outside? To set the mood, or to make an allusion to Craster's Keep? Is Sister's Stew white because it's a reference to the Others, or is it because it's another example of a GRRM name for something in the real world (lizard-lion = crocodile, Sisters Stew=chowder).

I think there is a secret being alluded to here, but not hidden nearly so deeply. The fact that the noble has only daughters, and his family has webbed fingers, seems to me a very direct allusion to The Shadow over Innsmouth, where corrupt humans in an isolated coastal town have been interbreeding with evil underwater humanoids for generations. I think this is all about mermen/deep ones, not Others.

[LmL]

All of the double meanings in the book also have a natural explanation. They wouldn't be hidden otherwise. So this really can't be used to decided whether a double meaning is intended or not.

I think Others and Deep Ones are intrinsically connected in some way. They keep appearing together in clues and being compared to one another. I certainly think the web fingers mean Deep Ones interbreeding, that seems clear. But that doesn't mean he isn't using spider crabs in different places (not just sister ton) as a way to tell us about the Others.

As an example, read Jon's ADWD chapters and substitute "dragon" every time you see the word "giant." I think he's absolutely doing stuff like this, using a specific creature as a metaphor for feeding us technical details about the subject. The giant at the wall keeps doing dragon things, it's funny. Really funny actually. But hey, some people tend to be very skeptical when it comes to indentifying these subtle patterns, that's ok and only natural. The skeptics keep the dreamers tethered a bit, that's probably okay.

[Voice]

42

Hodor.

[LmL]

so getting back to the topic, Evolett, I would still enjoy hearing your take on the black ice comments I made up thread whenever you get the chance. I think the idea that Jon is armored in Black Ice while dreaming of holding Lightbringer, combined with the fact that Dany dreams of fighting the usurper's troops on the trident armored in ice, means that something important is happening with this imagery. And then I found this today in ADWD. Voice, you'll want to check this out if you haven't already, thinking of the white shadows and all their manifestations. This is Barristan getting ready to go into the "heart" of the pyramid (which is red and black) to arrest Hizdahr:

The mail was gilded, finely wrought, the links as supple as good leather, the plate enameled, hard as ice and bright as new-fallen snow.

Kings guard and Others are pale shadows (Ghost also). Pale shadow KG are armored in ice. Pale shadow others armored in ice. Usurper's troops armored in ice. Dead crabs packed in snow. Dead crabs = others. Jon Snow, holding Lightbringer, armored in BLACK ice... seems an inversion of an other. This fits with him being resurrected and ending up like Coldhands, which has always been my prediction. He's like an Other that's turned against the Others. Kind of. Also, don't forget Mithras has to slay the white bull which is a pet of himself to be reborn. Ghost will die to redirect Jon, but his essence has merged with Jon's while Jon was in the wolf, so reborn Jon is part Ghost also - armored in ice now, because Pale Shadow Ghost is akin to Others.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Hodor.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. Did you remember to bring your towel?

[Ghosts Lunch]

I would like to just strangle this babe in the cradle before it grows up to be a big scary annoying Internet troll:

snip

If Jon is having waking dragon dreams, he is a Targaryen.

snip

Agree

A big thematic issue in there is that this is occurring as he is thinking of Arya a sentence before

The whole Alys Karstark and Mel in her visions etc etc storyline is about how Jons love for Arya is slowly "awakening the dragon" ala the Dragon dreams (becoming more wakeful) and the whole Kings and dragons thing too

This culminates in the Pink Letter which sees him cast his false idenitity aside (he joined the Nights Watch as Ned Starks bastard) to begin the process of honouring his identity as King (eg his personal development arc to leadership has risen to LC level, PL covers the Wildling side). This is not just a case as a Dragon King in due course but also as a "King Beyond the Wall" while he is running around in Ghost, there's more, eg the five washerwoman cloaks seems to suggest Mance has/is skinchanging in some way and may have even turned his cloak in a sense

This isn't the thread for it

Personally I reckon this crab thing has some merit, we wouldn't be going through all this Nimble Dick talk of Squishers and Cotter Pykes talk of "Dead things in the water" if there wasn't going to be some kind of maritime angle to it, and there's some merit that the people Davos meets and gets passage from will be Others sympathisers

[Seams]

How many angels can dance on a pin? Sounds like a really cool saying that I'd like to be able to use. What does it mean?

From Wikipedia: " In modern usage, it therefore has been used as a metaphor for wasting time debating topics of no practical value, or questions whose answers hold no intellectual consequence, while more urgent concerns pile up."

It is the classic example used to illustrate the way medieval scholars argued about minutiae in debates about reason vs. faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F

[Ghosts Lunch]

This fits with him being resurrected and ending up like Coldhands, which has always been my prediction. He's like an Other that's turned against the Others. Kind of. Also, don't forget Mithras has to slay the white bull which is a pet of himself to be reborn. Ghost will die to redirect Jon, but his essence has merged with Jon's while Jon was in the wolf, so reborn Jon is part Ghost also - armored in ice now, because Pale Shadow Ghost is akin to Others.

Yeah people seem to think Mel will do a Thoros but personally I don't think so

I reckon it is Bran who will be involved in Jons resurrection

It's a bit tricky, people roll their eyes at LS but as I often say it is important to look at resurrected characters as symbolic, eg often they are symbolic that the institution they are part of is dead on its feet

Eg Beric = death of old Cihvalry but also Baratheon dynasty, which is why Stannis while important won't make it to Iron Throne IMO. LS is the old Twin powers of Tully/Freys and the old vitality of the RL being dead, Coldhands is the NW being dead and Arya killing Dareon or rather a HoB&W person giving the gift to the NW which is no longer true

In the case of Jon maybe his body will be resurrected Wight style, this could fit thematically with his old identity being dead, but the difference is that being a Warg Jon may be able to re-enter his body from Ghost. The blood coallects etc but your suggestion of Ghost having to be sacrificed (or at least his body) may be in order to allow the vitality or blood flow ability to return etc (basically transfer the bodily life force from Ghost to Jons body)

Well that's a line of thought anyway

On the issue of Crabs and Others, it's worth remembering that Crabs had eaten Balon Greyjoys eyes when he washed up

Maybe it's not relevant, but maybe it is, eg think Cotter Pyke and "dead things in the water" and the Crabs as a maritime reference to the Others or the Drowned God aspect of the Others, have to remember that in Patchfaces ramblings Under the Sea seems to relate to a threshold of life and death somehow

[LmL]

Awesome Ghost Lunch, I remember really enjoying your comments on the astronomy threads. I like the way you are thinking here. So about Coldhands - I think he WAS a greenseer. I can't think of ANY other way to make sense of the fact that even though he smells like dead meat, just like every other cold wight, the great elk is not afraid of him, nor the ravens. In fact, the elk obeys his instructions after separating, taking the children along a predetermined course when Coldhands loops back to kill the mutineers (because Coldhands is a badass). Crucially, the ravens speak to him, and he listens. They roost on him, follow him around... He's acting like a greenseer. I think this also explains why he's unique for a cold wight. Because a greenseer or skinchanger's soul goes in to their animal, it can potentially be put back into a reassure ted body, which is normally an empty husk. But stick the soul back in - boom, a cold wight with a soul. They don't have blue star eyes because blue star eyes indicate that an Other is remote piloting the wight, or at least we can say the wight is animated by the Other's magic. There are several clues in northern chapters about both red eyes and green eyes looking black in the darkness, and in proximitely to weirwoods and other greenseer symbols. I thi Coldhands eyes used to be greenseer red or green, but turned black in death. Thus, I expect Jon to end up similar to CH - cold resurrected, but with his soul and his personal magic still in tact.

As for Mel playing a part in the ressurection, it is possible. Consider that we need to resurrect the body (I personally am 100% convinced he is actually dead because of the blood welling at his neck, indicating a jugular wound), AND put his soul back into the body. Mel may be the one to ressurect, making Jon a fire wight in that sense, and BR / Bran to "force" the soul out of the wolf and into the body. That's the Radio Westeros scenario. But I also think it is possible for greenseers to raise the dead - why else would Leaf tell Bran not to try? I think raising the dead is an abomination, and greenseers who do so must earn some terrible punishment, or be cast out perhaps. Coldhands may have been ressurect end by wights and stolen back by greenseers, who performed the magic to put CH soul back into the body.... But... I also think it's possible greenseers and skinchangers cannot be Other-wighted at all, as hinted at in the Varamyr prologue. Into his case, CH would have been resurrected by a "disobedient" greenseer, a rebel greenseer, or a greenseer who sacrificed his honor and possibly his life to do the "necessary-evil" of resurrecting CH.

I also think there's a decent chance the original Others were greenseers who violated this law somehow.

This is still a couple essays away, but I've found good evidence that the 12 companions of the LH were all either greenseers or sacred order of green men people. The LH himself seems like he may have been sacrificed in the end as well. Given that the LH may also be the NK, and these 12 may also be the 12 "lord commanders" who preceded the NK, this may be our mechanism for 12 greenseers becoming Others. I'm pretty sure about the 12 LH people being green men, the connection to the NK is pure speculation.

[Evolett]

On forks and things

He picked up her silver fork. “This belongs to Arya of House Stark. All these things belong to her. There is no place for them here. There is no place for her. Hers is too proud a name, and we have no room for pride. We are servants here.”

“I serve,” she said, wounded. She liked the silver fork.

“You play at being a servant, but in your heart you are a lord’s daughter. You have taken other names, but you wore them as lightly as you might wear a gown. Under them was always Arya.”

“I don’t wear gowns. You can’t fight in a stupid gown.”

AFFC, Cat of the Canals

The kindly man singles out the silver fork when he tells her there is no room for her treasures in the house of black and white. It seems he is of the opinion that being a Stark is not suited to becoming a FM (well, FW). But Arya obviously likes the silver fork. If the fork represents an effective anti-crab weapon then the kindly man appears to be associating with the aquatic faction here. This notion is reinforced when he remarks that she wears her other identities as she might wear a gown. No reference to fighting is made but Arya is immediately scornful of the idea of fighting in a gown. Actually, we have a direct association of silver gowns with merpeople via Patchface – The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. Silver is also heavily associated with the North – they only use silver coins etc. And Meera often catches silvery trout with her frog-spear. One can take this even further if we consider the fork in terms of silver-haired Dany and the image of the three-headed dragon.

Not sure but I still get the impression that the fork / trident imagery gives us an idea of where to place various factions, so let’s try from that point of view. In the first crab-fork scene, Thorne challenges Tyrion to face him with steel but he backs off when Tyrion pokes him with the tiny fork. I’ll be a stickler for words now: not the tiny steel fork, but the tiny fork. So perhaps steel is not important but the fork and the silver (North and water/merfolk, Dany/dragons) are.

So, Seam, in relation to your thoughts on Needle and the fork as a pair, perhaps the fork is also symbol of disunity, three factions divided, something that Arya has to discard? A needle stitches cloth together, a uniting principle but it involves ‘hurting’ the cloth before the ‘uniting’ stitches can be put in place. Okay, I’m probably taking this too far..

On the subject of claws. I get the impression that claws may represent an adversary’s weapon. The attacking eagle attacking with its claws, crabs attack with their claws. Bear claws – here I ask what’s up with bears? So many strange stories surrounding bears. Tormund’s titles include Husband to Bears or Father of Bears, it is claimed that Mormont women lie with bears – there’s a lot of hybrid / skinchanging associated here. Also of note: Rodrik Stark allegedly claimed Bear Island by winning a wrestling match against the Ironborn (presumably an Ironborn king?) and later gifted it to the Mormonts. What does this make Bear Island? What about the last two Mormont men? The Old Bear joins the NW (why?), Jorah disgraces himself and gives up the sword. Mormont then gives the sword away entirely, changing it in the process. The Mormonts are a poor house so how did they come by this very expensive Valyrian sword? It’s also a relatively rare bastard sword.

Jon thinks Longclaw isn’t the blade he would have chosen and tried to sound pleased and proud when he showed it to his brothers. Why isn’t he pleased with his gift? What kind of sword would he choose for himself? I don’t recall Jon ever using Longclaw in earnest and it failed him when he needed it most – so what failed him, his hand or the sword? If the claw imagery points to an adversary’s weapon, then Jon’s first instincts regarding Longclaw are justified.

As to Tyrion.. I can’t really say. He appears to be on a path of vengeance and destruction at the moment. First he kills Shae and his father, the way he treats the whores he has interactions with, his motivation for joining Dany seem to center around destroying Cersei and Jamie. Even his dealings with fAegon are suspect. I think he deliberately gave fAegon bad advice when he suggested the boy prove himself by attacking Westeros instead of joining up with Dany (the game of cyvasse they played during the conversation and Tyrion’s reaction on hearing that fAegon actually took his advice strongly suggests this). So maybe Tyrion is heading toward destructive interference, which will not benefit the overall effort.

[Evolett]

@LmL..

The black ice metaphor strikes me as denoting something negative, treachery. We have one reference, which indicates this:

It was warmer in the godswood, strange to say. Beyond its confines, a hard white frost gripped Winterfell. The paths were treacherous with black ice.

And

Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice. Down below, Lady Melisandre would be lighting her nightfire and chanting, Lord of Light, defend us, for the night is dark and full of terrors.

Here we have Mel chanting her nightly mantra of the night is dark and full of terrors just as the lighting on the Wall goes from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice.

I’ll quote the Jon’s black ice passage here again:

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

Jon’s brothers abandon him in this dream, even the scarecrow decoys. We can replace ‘but’ with ‘although’ or ‘in spite of’ which makes the meaning of that sentence stand out – Jon was armoured in black ice, although he carried the burning red sword, implying that the sword and armor do not match. I take this to mean that Jon is should not be armoured in black ice. The notion that he is in a treacherous role here is reinforced by the kind of wights he slays. Ygritte is the first clue – he should not be slaying Ygritte, the only love of his life so far. What honor is there in killing weak old men and young boys? The giants are on his ‘side’ – don’t know about the men with filed teeth but perhaps they also represent an important faction. He should be defending these people, not slaying them. Why isn’t he fighting ‘real men’ of a different calibre in this dream? I think the black ice reflects his fighting the wrong people here and his allies have abandoned him because of it. The dream means he needs to recognize this, he needs to realize that he’s on a treacherous path, not the one he should be taking while wielding that burning red sword.

[Modesty Lannister]

On forks and things

He picked up her silver fork. “This belongs to Arya of House Stark. All these things belong to her. There is no place for them here. There is no place for her. Hers is too proud a name, and we have no room for pride. We are servants here.”

“I serve,” she said, wounded. She liked the silver fork.

“You play at being a servant, but in your heart you are a lord’s daughter. You have taken other names, but you wore them as lightly as you might wear a gown. Under them was always Arya.”

“I don’t wear gowns. You can’t fight in a stupid gown.”

AFFC, Cat of the Canals

The kindly man singles out the silver fork when he tells her there is no room for her treasures in the house of black and white. It seems he is of the opinion that being a Stark is not suited to becoming a FM (well, FW). But Arya obviously likes the silver fork. If the fork represents an effective anti-crab weapon then the kindly man appears to be associating with the aquatic faction here. This notion is reinforced when he remarks that she wears her other identities as she might wear a gown. No reference to fighting is made but Arya is immediately scornful of the idea of fighting in a gown. Actually, we have a direct association of silver gowns with merpeople via Patchface – The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. Silver is also heavily associated with the North – they only use silver coins etc. And Meera often catches silvery trout with her frog-spear. One can take this even further if we consider the fork in terms of silver-haired Dany and the image of the three-headed dragon.

Not sure but I still get the impression that the fork / trident imagery gives us an idea of where to place various factions, so let’s try from that point of view. In the first crab-fork scene, Thorne challenges Tyrion to face him with steel but he backs off when Tyrion pokes him with the tiny fork. I’ll be a stickler for words now: not the tiny steel fork, but the tiny fork. So perhaps steel is not important but the fork and the silver (North and water/merfolk, Dany/dragons) are.

So, Seam, in relation to your thoughts on Needle and the fork as a pair, perhaps the fork is also symbol of disunity, three factions divided, something that Arya has to discard? A needle stitches cloth together, a uniting principle but it involves ‘hurting’ the cloth before the ‘uniting’ stitches can be put in place. Okay, I’m probably taking this too far..

On the subject of claws. I get the impression that claws may represent an adversary’s weapon. The attacking eagle attacking with its claws, crabs attack with their claws. Bear claws – here I ask what’s up with bears? So many strange stories surrounding bears. Tormund’s titles include Husband to Bears or Father of Bears, it is claimed that Mormont women lie with bears – there’s a lot of hybrid / skinchanging associated here. Also of note: Rodrik Stark allegedly claimed Bear Island by winning a wrestling match against the Ironborn (presumably an Ironborn king?) and later gifted it to the Mormonts. What does this make Bear Island? What about the last two Mormont men? The Old Bear joins the NW (why?), Jorah disgraces himself and gives up the sword. Mormont then gives the sword away entirely, changing it in the process. The Mormonts are a poor house so how did they come by this very expensive Valyrian sword? It’s also a relatively rare bastard sword.

Jon thinks Longclaw isn’t the blade he would have chosen and tried to sound pleased and proud when he showed it to his brothers. Why isn’t he pleased with his gift? What kind of sword would he choose for himself? I don’t recall Jon ever using Longclaw in earnest and it failed him when he needed it most – so what failed him, his hand or the sword? If the claw imagery points to an adversary’s weapon, then Jon’s first instincts regarding Longclaw are justified.

As to Tyrion.. I can’t really say. He appears to be on a path of vengeance and destruction at the moment. First he kills Shae and his father, the way he treats the whores he has interactions with, his motivation for joining Dany seem to center around destroying Cersei and Jamie. Even his dealings with fAegon are suspect. I think he deliberately gave fAegon bad advice when he suggested the boy prove himself by attacking Westeros instead of joining up with Dany (the game of cyvasse they played during the conversation and Tyrion’s reaction on hearing that fAegon actually took his advice strongly suggests this). So maybe Tyrion is heading toward destructive interference, which will not benefit the overall effort.

Very insightful. I almost completely agree on Arya bit of your post. FM worship the God of Death in all its forms. That, imho, sides them with the faction that works to introduce the LN. Death thrives in darkness. It is symbolically referred to through the blind period of Arya's training. She is being trained to work in the dark. But, instead of honing her instincts and other 4 senses while being blind, the training actually does the opposite. Like with Bran, the trauma induced by her struggle to survive and by deprivation of one sense (sight, important word, isn't it and it works only during the day), actually prompts Arya to hone her skinchanging abilities without supervision Bran had. Arya has been wise not to share that part of her abilities with "the kind man". She is a natural enemy of FM. Her blood goes against their philosophy. Keeping the Needle and her skin changing abilities hidden proves that Arya's arc will not remain glued to the FM cause.

[LmL]

Very insightful. I almost completely agree on Arya bit of your post. FM worship the God of Death in all its forms. That, imho, sides them with the faction that works to introduce the LN. Death thrives in darkness. It is symbolically referred to through the blind period of Arya's training. She is being trained to work in the dark. But, instead of honing her instincts and other 4 senses while being blind, the training actually does the opposite. Like with Bran, the trauma induced by her struggle to survive and by deprivation of one sense (sight, important word, isn't it and it works only during the day), actually prompts Arya to hone her skinchanging abilities without supervision Bran had. Arya has been wise not to share that part of her abilities with "the kind man". She is a natural enemy of FM. Her blood goes against their philosophy. Keeping the Needle and her skin changing abilities hidden proves that Arya's arc will not remain glued to the FM cause.

Watching the TV show last week, this really occurred to me: the FM aren't really good guys. In fact, I think they can go fuck themselves with their smelly corpse tunnels and their freaky surgery. No thanks. If you buy the Arya as Batman comparison, the League of Shadows where Batman learned his martial arts were ha dpeople that he had to rebel against and kill. I see some of that coming. Certainly rebellion, possibly killing FM herself. That would be sweet.

I did think that scene was well done, the show is always better when they use book dialogue. Anyway. I agree Modesty, FM are on the wrong side.

[LmL]

@LmL..

The black ice metaphor strikes me as denoting something negative, treachery. We have one reference, which indicates this:

And

Here we have Mel chanting her nightly mantra of the night is dark and full of terrors just as the lighting on the Wall goes from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice.

I’ll quote the Jon’s black ice passage here again:

Jon’s brothers abandon him in this dream, even the scarecrow decoys. We can replace ‘but’ with ‘although’ or ‘in spite of’ which makes the meaning of that sentence stand out – Jon was armoured in black ice, although he carried the burning red sword, implying that the sword and armor do not match. I take this to mean that Jon is should not be armoured in black ice. The notion that he is in a treacherous role here is reinforced by the kind of wights he slays. Ygritte is the first clue – he should not be slaying Ygritte, the only love of his life so far. What honor is there in killing weak old men and young boys? The giants are on his ‘side’ – don’t know about the men with filed teeth but perhaps they also represent an important faction. He should be defending these people, not slaying them. Why isn’t he fighting ‘real men’ of a different calibre in this dream? I think the black ice reflects his fighting the wrong people here and his allies have abandoned him because of it. The dream means he needs to recognize this, he needs to realize that he’s on a treacherous path, not the one he should be taking while wielding that burning red sword.

That's an interesting observation. I'm taking this section as more confirmation that Azor Ahai was the Bloodstone Emperor, usurper extraordinaire and committee of the blood betrayal. Jon is holding a red fire sword - that's Azor Ahai's "Lightbringer" - and then kills his love (Ygritte = Nissa / Amethyst Empress). And then he even kills Robb and declares himself the lord of Winterfell - usurpation and betrayal and kinslaying. In this sense I interpret the black ice, both his armor here and the rivers which the red streaks of fire turned into, as being equivalent to the black tide and dark tide which was triggered by the drowning of a moon meteorite. The moon drowning causing a flood tide is a metaphor I am starting to notice in many places - it's definitely a thing. There were massive floods that came in the darkness of the Long Night. Red streaks of fire turning into rivers of black ice - those are flaming meteors causing floods. The tide and the icy rivers tell us that the Others and the Deep Ones are allied and came together during the Long Night, I believe. Cotter Pyke strengthens this association by saying "dead things in the woods, dead things in the water."

Returning the Azor Ahai, if he was armored in this black ice, what does that mean? It could symbolize the betrayal, certainly. There's another ice quote from the same Jon part of the book where he tells Tormund they are walking on thin ice with the peace agreement and if the ice cracks they all DROWN. I think this means either that the dark, icy floods came at the same time as Azor Ahai's reign of terror. Or more specifically that he brought the dark tide and it served him as an ally. Think of the Bloodstone Emperor invading Wetseros at Battle Isle, as I've proposed. We know he came with dragons, but likely a navy as well unless he invaded by himself, which is unlikely. So... Deep Ones armada? The original pirates who later became the ironborn after some Deep Ones rape? Something like that. The message (one of them) is that Azor Ahai was armored in this black ice.

As for Jon, I think we are glimpsing two possible futures, as we are with Daenerys. He can become Azor Ahai reborn, in the sense that he can betray and usurp, as he does in the dream. But I'm sure there's also another choice, perhaps the Last Hero choice, likely involving self sacrifice or denial of his kingly legacy or something like that. Similarly, Dany seems to have a choice between fire and blood (Azor Ahai reborn) or planting trees - perhaps her Amethyst Empress legacy.

[Modesty Lannister]

@LmL..

The black ice metaphor strikes me as denoting something negative, treachery. We have one reference, which indicates this:

And

Here we have Mel chanting her nightly mantra of the night is dark and full of terrors just as the lighting on the Wall goes from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice.

I’ll quote the Jon’s black ice passage here again:

Jon’s brothers abandon him in this dream, even the scarecrow decoys. We can replace ‘but’ with ‘although’ or ‘in spite of’ which makes the meaning of that sentence stand out – Jon was armoured in black ice, although he carried the burning red sword, implying that the sword and armor do not match. I take this to mean that Jon is should not be armoured in black ice. The notion that he is in a treacherous role here is reinforced by the kind of wights he slays. Ygritte is the first clue – he should not be slaying Ygritte, the only love of his life so far. What honor is there in killing weak old men and young boys? The giants are on his ‘side’ – don’t know about the men with filed teeth but perhaps they also represent an important faction. He should be defending these people, not slaying them. Why isn’t he fighting ‘real men’ of a different calibre in this dream? I think the black ice reflects his fighting the wrong people here and his allies have abandoned him because of it. The dream means he needs to recognize this, he needs to realize that he’s on a treacherous path, not the one he should be taking while wielding that burning red swo

There is something off with this dream as is with all Jon's, Theon's and Jaime's dreams. I believe all three are receiving them from BR. In this dream, Jon is dressed in Targaryen colours that seem off on the Wall anyway. But, I'd stress the word "seem". I always had an impression that this particular dream is about Jon's heritage and further task. He is dressed as his father - in black armour. However, the fact that the armour is made of ice alludes to his mother's Stark heritage (If we believe in R+L=J of course). Also, this dream, imho, alludes to something more important. Jon's future role as a commander of the Others. You know that I do not believe the Others are the enemy, but the second and the ultimate NW standing on the second wall (we are the watchers on the walls), which parallels the real Antonine Wall that stands further north from Hadrian Wall in Scotland. I believe the people slain in the dream represent people who had to die for Jon to achieve his ultimate role. His infiltration of the wildlings, his ability to understand "the other" (in the Edward Said's sense) and to bring "the other" (in this case wildlings) into the fold is of a pivotal importance. I believe maester Aemon had known who Jon is from the beginning as did the BR. And they are not the only ones. Jon is being trained to infiltrate the Others, take over command and bring them into the fold against whatever is coming from the sea. That is why maester Aemon manipulated the vote and speeded Jon's election to LC. That is why Jon was stabbed before fleeing the Wall. He is a Stark and a LC of the NW. Imho, that makes him a firm candidate for turning into the Other after his "death" (I can elaborate this further if you wish). However, since he is a Targaryen as well, his unique blood enables him to wield "the red sword", which, imho, no Stark could wield after turning for various reasons.

[Seams]

On forks and things . . .

... Arya obviously likes the silver fork. If the fork represents an effective anti-crab weapon then the kindly man appears to be associating with the aquatic faction here. This notion is reinforced when he remarks that she wears her other identities as she might wear a gown. No reference to fighting is made but Arya is immediately scornful of the idea of fighting in a gown. Actually, we have a direct association of silver gowns with merpeople via Patchface The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. Silver is also heavily associated with the North they only use silver coins etc. And Meera often catches silvery trout with her frog-spear. One can take this even further if we consider the fork in terms of silver-haired Dany and the image of the three-headed dragon.

I like your examination of Arya's fork in the context of things that are silver, and the implication that this relates to the sea. There is a water / sea motif that runs through a lot of references to Dany, so maybe the sea is something Arya and Dany will have in common. (The Nymeria link may be a strong clue that these characters will unite, somehow, around an ocean-going theme.) Maybe Meera is in on this strong women/merpeople/"under the sea" grouping as well.

In TWOIAF, I was struck by the history of the islands called the Three Sisters (p. 168). This is obviously relevant to understanding the Sister Stew that caught your interest, and may help sort out some of the other symbols we have been contemplating. The book says some of the islands in the area known as The Bite are "no more than crab-infested rocks and roosts for seabirds." The Three Sisters name seems like GRRM challenging readers to construct meaning, and it also seems significant that the war for control of the islands between the northmen (Bolton is specifically mentioned) and the Arryns is brutal and lasts a thousand years. But TWOIAF indicates,

"This was not a case of the Eyrie winning so much as Winterfell losing interest . . . For ten long centuries the direwolf and the falcon had fought and bled over three rocks, until one day the wolf awoke as from a dream and realized it was only stone between his teeth, whence he spat it out and walked away."

Walking away from a thousand-year war doesnt seem very Stark-like to me. The stone between the teeth phrase might convey that Starks realized they dont like to eat Sister Stew. But stones are important in the Stark storyline (the tops of stone mountains are described as being stark in one of Brans POVs; weirwood trees grow from stony ground; the stones of Winterfell are all that remain, etc.). Not to mention that Sansa is transformed into Alayne Stone.

The circumstances of Arya receiving her silver fork seem strongly linked to elements of Sansa's story line, which brings me back again to the islands called the Sisters. The islands are located right next to the Fingers, land of Petyr Baelish, whose family sigil was originally the head of the Titan of Braavos. Arya's trip to Braavos takes place on a ship called the Titan's Daughter just as Sansa is assuming the identity of Littlefinger's daughter. The figurehead of the ship is a maiden with a bowl of fruit, which also seems Sansa-related to me: Sansa is constantly associated with being a maiden and with lemon tarts and blood oranges. I dont think we are supposed to see Arya as being like Sansa, but maybe we are supposed to see the sisters as embarking on related voyages.

Some of the crew shunned her, but others gave her gifts - a silver fork, fingerless gloves, a floppy woolen hat patched with leather. One man showed her how to tie sailor's knots. Another poured her thimble cups of fire wine.

In addition to the silver fork, Arya receives:

1) Fingerless gloves - another allusion to Baelish's homeland The Fingers? But these gloves do not have fingers, so maybe the intent is to contrast Arya's voyage with Sansa's voyage, which specifically includes a stop at The Fingers. The fingerless gloves could also allude to Theon, who wears gloves to hide the fact that Ramsey Bolton has cut off several of his fingers. Lady Dustin remarks on the empty fingers of Theon's gloves, if I recall correctly.

2) A floppy woolen hat patched with leather - the strongest association I have for this is Aegon V of the Dunk & Egg stories, who wore a floppy hat and shaved his head to hide his identity as a Targaryen prince. (Did the Hound also wear a floppy hat when he was disguised as a farmer delivering food to the Frey/Tully wedding?) Leather I associate with wildlings and the patches on the hat I would associate with Patchface and/or with Arya's sewing motif. I think the hat is a symbol of Arya's ongoing effort to disguise her identity and her high-born status but it also displays her northern, first-men heritage (related to the wildlings) and her role in repairing the torn fabric of Westeros. The hat and the fork are related, in this sense, if the fork represents a weapon for battling the Others.

3) Sailor's knots - Not (ha!) sure of the interpretation for this. Jon and the wildlings used ropes for climbing the Wall, right? Any other significant ropes or knots in the story?

4) Thimble cups of fire wine - The thimble obviously refers to Arya's sewing motif, and would be an aid to her sewing efforts. Fire and wine are also important symbols, too complex to fully describe here, but worth noting.

While reading your post and writing this response, it occurs to me that another link between Arya and Sister Stew is that Arya used soup as a weapon at Harrenhal, when Jaqen Hghar told her how to help kill the guards posted around Robb's imprisoned bannermen. It further dawned on me that Arya is making her own soup or stew when she throws her belongings in the harbor at Braavos: a stew that represents all she is, if the Kindly Man's words are accurate. The stew includes the items listed above as well as the murdered singer Darion, deserter of the Night's Watch, whose boots Arya wore (correct me if I'm wrong). Bran compares skinchanging into Hodor as being like wearing someone else's boots, and I think the people Arya kills represent aspects of her past as she grows and matures. So her willingness to dump her stuff in the harbor might seem like an effort to comply with the instructions of the Kindly Man, but I think the exercise masks the fact that Arya is making a new weapon (like the Harrenhal soup) using aspects of her past. I think this also fits with her Salty / Saltpans identity, as a pan with salt would be useful to someone who is about to make soup.

Not to belabor this (but I will anyway), but Arya also threw Joffrey's sword, Lion's Tooth, into the Trident River. Maybe that was part of Arya Soup, too.

Sansa's sojourn at the Eyrie also includes a singer and a person being thrown down to her death (through the Moon Door instead of into a canal or into the harbor). Lysa Arryn instructs Marillion to sing a song describing a lady sewing when she tries to throw Sansa out of the Moon Door, but Lysa is the one who falls. Sansa / Alayne then starts to wear Lysa's clothes and becomes the defacto mother figure for creepy little Robert Arryn, losing her identity in a way that echoes what Arya has been doing for quite awhile.

I dont know who the third sister might be GRRM specifically gives us Three Sister islands, not two. Candidates might include Jeyne Poole, Brienne of Tarth and / or Alyce Karstark.

Not sure but I still get the impression that the fork / trident imagery gives us an idea of where to place various factions, so lets try from that point of view. ...

So, Seam, in relation to your thoughts on Needle and the fork as a pair, perhaps the fork is also symbol of disunity, three factions divided, something that Arya has to discard? A needle stitches cloth together, a uniting principle but it involves hurting the cloth before the uniting stitches can be put in place.

The three branches of the Trident River originate in the Westerlands (Red Fork), the Riverlands although near the Iron Islands (Blue Fork) and the North (Green Fork). One tributary of the Green Fork originates in The Vale. So maybe the fork / trident imagery represents the hope that Lannisters, Tyrells, Greyjoys, Tullys, Freys and Starks will all unite against their common enemy, the Others?

The discarding of the fork seemed to make sense until I got this "Arya Soup" notion into my head. Now I think she wasn't truly discarding it. I like the idea that Needle represents the sewing / constructive aspect of Arya's journey, but the fork might represent a warrior aspect. That doesnt seem quite right though, as Needle has clearly been used for killing and the fork has not - it's an eating utensil, as far as we know. Maybe it just represents Arya's future destiny in uniting various regions of Westeros, bringing together green, blue and red lands. If her fork marks her for this role, Tyrion must have a similar role as he is the other character who carried a fork. (I guess that means Meera, too.)

On the subject of claws. . .

Jon thinks Longclaw isnt the blade he would have chosen and tried to sound pleased and proud when he showed it to his brothers. Why isnt he pleased with his gift? What kind of sword would he choose for himself? I dont recall Jon ever using Longclaw in earnest and it failed him when he needed it most so what failed him, his hand or the sword? If the claw imagery points to an adversarys weapon, then Jons first instincts regarding Longclaw are justified.

Maybe this supports the notion that Jon has to become a sword, not receive the sword of another House. In that thread I mentioned in an earlier post (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/112729-a-feast-for-the-dead-a-snow-in-the-tombs-a-dream-in-dust/page-9#entry6804067) Modesty Lannister posted some interesting thoughts about Jon being prepped by his Nights Watch brothers for a destiny that involves dying (and coming back as someone or something on the other side of dying). I responded with the quotes about Jon being compared to a sword that needs sharpening. Maybe the idea of the adversary's weapon fits this as well, or maybe Jon just didn't feel right about the sword because he has to become his own sword. (I also allow for the possibility that one of the swords taken from the Winterfell crypt is intended for him.)

As to Tyrion.. I cant really say. He appears to be on a path of vengeance and destruction at the moment. First he kills Shae and his father, the way he treats the whores he has interactions with, his motivation for joining Dany seem to center around destroying Cersei and Jamie. Even his dealings with fAegon are suspect. I think he deliberately gave fAegon bad advice when he suggested the boy prove himself by attacking Westeros instead of joining up with Dany (the game of cyvasse they played during the conversation and Tyrions reaction on hearing that fAegon actually took his advice strongly suggests this). So maybe Tyrion is heading toward destructive interference, which will not benefit the overall effort.

In spite of his anger at members of his family, Tyrion still seems to be living by the family vow to pay his debts - both in the form of revenge and in the promise to reward with gold. So it's hard to know if the path of vengeance is a departure or just the flip side of the same coin we have seen before. I do agree that he was probably up to mischief when he advised fAegon to invade Westeros.

Bringing things back to that significant crab fork scene, here's an early quote from Tyrion that seem to foreshadow his shooting of Tywin:

Finally the Lord Commander recovered himself. "You are a wicked man, to provoke our Ser Alliser so," he scolded.

Tyrion seated himself and took a sip of wine. "If a man paints a target on his chest, he should expect that sooner or later someone will loose an arrow at him. I have seen dead men with more humor than your Ser Alliser."

In addition to symbolizing the Others, it seems Alliser Thorne symbolizes Tywin Lannister. Curiouser and curiouser.

[Amris]

Your theory is an interesting read and I agree that GRRM likely meant to tell us something when he described this menu and the Crab family.

However what came to my mind upon reading through your conclusions is: "How and why does he come to draw a parallel to the Others of all things? When there is another explanation much closer at hand?"

You put a lot of effort into this and I appreciate that. I also think you may well be onto something. But what?

The connection to the Others while of course impossible to rule out seems far-fetched to me. That's mainly because there is another 'other' race in the Crab story that seems to be a much closer fit: The Deep Ones.

From the description of the Crab family and the webbing between their fingers, the abduction of daughters, not to mention Patchface's story, there seems to exist some sort of intelligent underwater race living near the shores which has occasionally interbred with the humans there. That fits with GRRM's appreciation of H.P. Lovecraft's work.

And that 'other' race hardly can be the 'norther' Others because of the webbing. It's an underwater race, not an ice race.

(I also wonder how and why the ship carrying Patchface foundered after a long journey when it already was in sight of land. That was an awfully convenient storm from the viewpoint of an underwater race preying on humans - but maybe that was all it was anyway.)

The point is though that we have pretty straightforward hints that the Crabs are connected to quite another race than the 'northern' Others and I don't really get why if thats the case you still want to connect the clues in their chapter to the Others too.

What I do see is the parallel to Craster and his daughters. Thank you for pointing that out.

However that does not mean that the Crab chapter is a metaphor or allegory or anything concerning the northern Others.

I think it much more likely that GRRM wants to show us that his different nonhuman races show certain similarities in their interaction with the humans living in their sphere of influence and that that's where the parallel to Craster comes into play.

What's more I think he means the Crabs' webbing and the talk about their relation to the Deep Ones as a hint that race-race interbreding is possible, meaning to show us that other people (aside from the Crabs) may not be entirely human either. I get the impression GRRM wants to establish a pattern: I am thinking of the Targ heritage and their malformed dragon-like winged babies. And that's where we probably get back to the Night's King and his cold bride. GRRM like saying 'it's been happening with the Deep Ones - it's been happening with the Dragons - so don't be surprised if it's been happening with the Others.' *

I think that's the meaning of the chapter.

Leading us to the conclusion of three different classes of Other's though - hm. I still don't get that.

If the three sorts of crabs in the soup are meant as a hint on three sorts of whatever - a big if that - then it would rather be three sorts of Deep Ones.

* EDIT: and with the Children of the Forest (considering Arya's looks and maybe Reed's people)

[TheHappyFaceSalesman]

I like the potential parallels(always thought there was something more to this scene) but wouldn't it make more sense if the spider crabs were representing the wights? So the reason he would feel like a cannibal is because they were human once.