Orange is the New Black

[Isalie]

Finished it. Couldn't not.

I know Luschek is entertaining and I admit I almost forgave him for that one moment :laugh: . I realise some of the blame is Nicky's but it was his fault the stuff was found and then he just threw her under the bus. What can I say, I miss Nicky!

It was totally her fault that it was found though, she hid it there.

[HexMachina]

It was totally her fault that it was found though, she hid it there.

Well, thats true. But everyone loves Nicky, and Luschek is a bit of a dick

ETA: Rewatched an episode in Season 1 today and damn. I want Miss Claudette back.

[john]

Did he rape her at any other time apart from the once that was specifically planned by her and her mother?

Dealing drugs does not justify the harsher punishments a convicted rapist receives. Suspected murder, if she did actually suspect him (again, don't recall), is even less reason.

The fact that he raped her is enough to justify his punishment of a rape conviction. I know she's a little dumb but she can surely see how he did do the crime he was convicted of.

Add that to the other stuff and even if she feels conflicted over her role, it's not going to last long or affect her future behaviour. I really dont see what you're seeing here, Daya knows just as much bad shit about Mendez as we do.

And I don't particularly base my morality on the law either (although criminal law is based on an understanding of morality). I'm just hard pressed to see how taking advantage of your physical power over someone is more wrong, in any sense, than taking advantage of your conferred power over someone.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

That shit pissed me off too. The second Alex isn't focused solely on Piper she cheats and rectifies it with "she's paranoid and crazy and that's not sexy". F U Piper. She's just an awful person.

Is the real Piper this awful? She wrote the book - did she portray herself this way?

One of the things I like about the show is its tendency to make people flawed and offer raw portrayals of characters also applies to Piper. Alex calls her out on her self-absorbtion (relatively common for someone from a privileged background) on more than one occasion and the show doesn't shy from portraying her that way.

[JoeyBanana]

A big part of why Daya was talked into seducing him had little to do with protecting her or Bennet.

They wanted Mendez gone because they knew exactly how terrible he was and took advantage of Daya's (and Bennet's) hopeless situation.

It's not a coincidence the most abusive and dangerous guard was picked to be the fall guy.

[Kyoshi]

Did he rape her at any other time apart from the once that was specifically planned by her and her mother?

Dealing drugs does not justify the harsher punishments a convicted rapist receives. Suspected murder, if she did actually suspect him (again, don't recall), is even less reason.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue that it's poor characterisation, I'm just explaining the problems I have with Daya as a person.

Well, I guess this is just something we have to agree to disagree on then. Personally though, I don't think the law is the rule for morality.

When his mother visits him in prison he says, "I wasn't a rapist...with her."

[karaddin]

Dude he had sex with an inmate. That's fucking rape, plain and simple. Rape is rape, she cannot consent to it, no matter what you say about her "initiating" it. The whole point is that when you put someone in a position of power over someone else meaningful consent is impossible, it may be that they do not feel they can say no, but it can also be a whole range of other reasons they feel they need to go along with it. He raped her. He raped other girls. He deserves to fucking rot in prison and she knows he deserves it.

Can you please stop with the rape apology? Because that's what saying "he didn't really rape her, she started it" is doing. It's against the forum rules.

[john]

-

Ok, I see the distinction you're making - that Daya seducing him for the purpose of getting him convicted adds a new element to the crime. I think you're wrong that that undermines the legal principle, you can't trick someone into committing a crime, they either do it or not. As for the moral element, Daya might bear some moral responsibility for what happened to Mendez (although that's very arguable, imo) but that doesn't change the nature of his crime, it's just as immoral and the two acts have no connection. I don't think Daya needs to feel bad about what she did (or the show needs to show her feeling bad about it) to make her a sympathetic character. But maybe I just like Daya more than you.

Anyway, we better stop this discussion, it's becoming unpleasant for everyone. FWIW, I don't think Leap was trying to make a rape apology, that's partly my fault for misconstruing his argument.

[karaddin]

Yup, I clearly avoided the debate because I used the word fuck while making a point about meaningful consent. But then I guess meaningful consent is just a buzz word and not something I actually believe. I don't expect any public support in this thread, I found the second half of the season extremely difficult to watch due to a plot thread that didn't even register for most of you, so I doubt I'm going to have the massses rally behind me just because I used some buzz words. But please by all means continue your martyr act.

I do think rape is pretty black and white though yes, and that's what any guard having sex with any inmate is. There is no context that ever makes that OK.

[HexMachina]

Leap, if you watch season one again, you can see that Michael was never a rosy little darling to begin with. I can genuinely believe that Benito wasn't the only factor at play there. Might it have influenced him a little? Yeah, sure. But I doubt it was the only issue

[Castel]

Leap, if you watch season one again, you can see that Michael was never a rosy little darling to begin with. I can genuinely believe that Benito wasn't the only factor at play there. Might it have influenced him a little? Yeah, sure. But I doubt it was the only issue

I think there's a serious difference between the way he was in that season- discombobulated by his mother's transition and quiet and sullen because he didn't know how to deal with it- and the less passive way he is now.

As for Benito being or not being a dick: I don't know if it matters. I don't know if we'll ever know. It's that Sophia doesn't know, and she probably has some class prejudices guiding her decision to come down on one side.

[HexMachina]

Ah, well I have not seen Season 1 since it aired so my memory was a little shitty on that. I agree that Benito wasn't the only issue, I guess it just seems to me like a lot of his attitude (specifically, in that first visit scene where they gave Benito a lift) is modelled off of Benito. Although you're absolutely right, things like sneaking a girl back to his room and beating the shit out of an innocent kid are as a result of other things, such as teenage aggression, emotional trauma, and bad parenting advice (''practice on a girl with low self esteem''). *takes off hat*. I suppose I am a pretty biased too, the swearing in front of his parents thing is something I'm still too scared to do and I'm apparently an adult now.

Well in S1 he is saying things like "They're [some shoes I think] for faggots." And showing unhappiness about the whole situation. So he was always a bit of a brat.

And yeah, I'm terrified of swearing in fron of my family too. Drop the ladder on your foot? Bite your tongue, cannot swear! :p

[Isalie]

The whole Sophia - Gloria situation was a mess. Sophia and family weren't obligated to give Benny a ride, but she sure didn't handle it very well before and after finding out that Michael was the little thug wannabe out of the two. She could've avoided most of it if she had just apologized when she was about to too.

About Sophia, Michael and Michael's brattiness, I don't think it's a coincidence that he always use derogatory words about homosexuals around Sophia, he's obviously pissed off about the entire situation. Kids want to be prioritized and Sophia not only changed sex but she got herself sent to prison too. As unfair the world may be to her, I think she needs to look at herself rather than at some teenage boy to find some kind of explanation for Michael's behavior.

[brook]

Well technically Michael got Sophia sent to prison although yes she committed the crimes he was the one that dobbed her in.

I firmly reject that transitioning is in any way 'not prioritizing' her son. A living parent is preferable to a dead one full stop.

Sophia's blind spot over Michael is huge though, and almost certainly a function of guilt. We're not given much indication he was ever a particularly nice kid but his resentment of her hasn't helped.

The thing about Gloria/Sophia is that I absolutely agree that Gloria was justified in being angry with Sophia, but anger just doesn't justify a transphobic hate campaign.

[Isalie]

Well technically Michael got Sophia sent to prison although yes she committed the crimes he was the one that dobbed her in.

I firmly reject that transitioning is in any way 'not prioritizing' her son. A living parent is preferable to a dead one full stop.

Sophia's blind spot over Michael is huge though, and almost certainly a function of guilt. We're not given much indication he was ever a particularly nice kid but his resentment of her hasn't helped.

The thing about Gloria/Sophia is that I absolutely agree that Gloria was justified in being angry with Sophia, but anger just doesn't justify a transphobic hate campaign.

I never got the feeling from the show that Michael understood why Sophia transitioned, nor had any understanding/sympathy for her situation. I think his thinking is closer to "she did this to humiliate me" than "she chose life to be with me".

Gloria could've and should've done more to stop what was done to Sophia, in her defense though, at first she was really angry with her and when she realized what was happening the cat was already out of the bag.

Note: These are not my opinions on transgender or Sophia, it's what I think the show is trying to convey.

[brook]

I agree that michael had no understanding. What the show doesn't show us is who is at fault there - we don't know if it was ever explained to him or how. We don't know what he was like pre-transition. All we know is what he is like now.

As for Gloria it really doesn't matter what she intended. Throwing transphobic slurs at sophia in the middle of a fight is as unacceptable as if she'd called her the n word... but frankly worse because sophia is a great deal more marginalised and vulnerable as a trans woman than as a black woman.

[Isalie]

Yeah I'm not going to defend that.

On another note, the biggest red herring of the season must've been the lollipop shank that Piper found when she was scavenging. A lollipop shank just as we were told that Lolly wasn't out to get Alex, I thought Vause was done for for sure. She might still be of course, but like someone said upthread, I kind of hope she survives and form a partnership of the crazies (sure, she would have to turn crazy, but why not, call it development ;)) with Lolly.

Also, I have zero complaints about the season having no clear plot. Having forced myself through the trainwreck that is GoT a theme based season was a really nice change of pace.

[HexMachina]

I agree that michael had no understanding. What the show doesn't show us is who is at fault there - we don't know if it was ever explained to him or how. We don't know what he was like pre-transition. All we know is what he is like now.

Eta: oops, read properly, forgot about the transphobic slurs during the fight. That was wrong, yes. Though I still think it was Aleida who was spreadig to the prison community in general

As for Gloria it really doesn't matter what she intended. Throwing transphobic slurs at sophia in the middle of a fight is as unacceptable as if she'd called her the n word... but frankly worse because sophia is a great deal more marginalised and vulnerable as a trans woman than as a black woman.

Sophia's wife (I forget her name).specifically mentions she would rather have Sophia be a woman than dead, so its possible she explained to Michael.

As for Gloria, I think it was more Aleida(spelling?) that was stirring hatred towards Sophia. Gloria was angry, but I didnt get the impression it was her that was stirring (unless I've forgotten something already)

[awesome possum]

Finished the season last night, it was good. Better than the second season because there was no obnoxious mustache-twirling cartoon villain of the season (unless you count the faceless corporation).

Boo and Pennsatucky were the highlight, I enjoyed that pairing in season 1 when they were antagonistic towards each other and hope to see them play off of each other more.

I also love that the show-runners try to spread around the backstories instead of just focusing on a couple. I never would have expected a Norma or Leanne or Chang flashback, but they were all enjoyable.

Is the real Piper this awful? She wrote the book - did she portray herself this way?

I asked my wife that question because she's read the book, apparently no. The show is just going far off the rails and straying far into complete fiction territory instead of "sort of fiction" territory. In the book she apparently goes into how the ordeal made her a better person, which we may eventually get with show-Piper, but I hope not. I like that she's so unlikable.

Dude he had sex with an inmate. That's fucking rape, plain and simple. Rape is rape, she cannot consent to it, no matter what you say about her "initiating" it. The whole point is that when you put someone in a position of power over someone else meaningful consent is impossible, it may be that they do not feel they can say no, but it can also be a whole range of other reasons they feel they need to go along with it. He raped her. He raped other girls. He deserves to fucking rot in prison and she knows he deserves it.

I don't disagree with your final sentence, but, do you also believe this makes Bennett a rapist?

[karaddin]

Of course. I thought the show had made that abundantly clear as well, although I can't recall if that was in S1 or S2. It was one of the things the show was trying to do "see this deranged, clearly awful rapist? and this seemingly sweet guy falling in love with the inmate? both rapists, both not OK", Bennett deserves to be in there with Pornstache, although his list of crimes isn't as long as he hasn't been smuggling drugs into the prison etc, he has repeatedly raped Daya though.