"The dragon has three heads" theory

[Nozlym]

I will never believe V&I have made the same mistake as most people by dismissing the widely known stories about The Others as fiction, so they know The Others are a real thing, they know about the prophecies, they know a long winter is coming, they know of wildlings at the wall, and they know that Melisandre has proclaimed Stannis as AA. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to me that V&I have pieced it all together (perhaps combined with gathered intel that we aren't aware of). A lot of it hinges on how much they know about the prophecies and if their goal is really to fulfill them. If so, I have no doubt they have a good idea about what's happening at the wall

was referring to this post mostly

just kinda out there imo

u know?

[Rattenhoofd]

was referring to this post mostly

just kinda out there imo

u know?

All of my premisses are factual, and I don't see why my conclusion would be "out there"

Care to elaborate?

[bent branch]

was referring to this post mostly

just kinda out there imo

u know?

What is so out there about this post?

I will never believe V&I have made the same mistake as most people by dismissing the widely known stories about The Others as fiction, so they know The Others are a real thing, they know about the prophecies, they know a long winter is coming, they know of wildlings at the wall, and they know that Melisandre has proclaimed Stannis as AA. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to me that V&I have pieced it all together (perhaps combined with gathered intel that we aren't aware of). A lot of it hinges on how much they know about the prophecies and if their goal is really to fulfill them. If so, I have no doubt they have a good idea about what's happening at the wall

After the attack at the Fist of the First Men, Aemon sends ravens to all of the five kings, Joffrey, Robb, Stannis, Renly and Balon. All of the kings besides Stannis ignore these messages, dismissing them as fantasy. So, even though they are dismissed as fantasy the information is out there. As far as wights go, Alliser was sent to KL with a moving hand in a jar. Again, Tyrion made Alliser wait to present his evidence until the hand had rotted, but Alliser made his claims in open court so that information is out there. The white ravens to signal autumn were sent out and now the white ravens signaling winter have been sent out, so everyone knows winter is coming (has come). The NW sent a raven telling KL that they were under attack from the wildlings, but Tywin sent them a raven back saying something along the lines that if they chose his candidate for new Lord Commander he might consider sending them reinforcements after he had finished mopping up after the war. So knowledge of the wildlings was out there. The High Sparrow won't consider Stannis for king because he is now openly following R'hllor, so that is common knowledge.

So, as Rattenhoffd says, the only question is does V&I know about the prophecies and if so how? Again, it is completely irrational to assume that they don't know about the prophecized hero from the followers of R'hllor. From both Dany and Tyrion's chapters when they are in Illyrio's manse, they note that they can hear the night prayers of the red priests from inside Illyrio's walls. Both V&I grew up poor on the streets of Essos where the coming of AA is preached nightly on street corners. To my mind it is a bit like expecting a Catholic to never have heard of Jesus.

But which version of the prophecy are they going off of? Melisandre, Benerro and Aemon give us three different versions of the prophecy. Melisandre and Aemon agree that this prophecy is in relation to the threat from the north. However, Melisandre is only looking for one person while Aemon is looking for three. Benerro, while agreeing that AA is coming to hold back the dark, his version seems to be more metaphorical. The darkness in his version seems to be slavery and AA is coming to release them all from slavery and he agrees with Melisandre that there is only one hero. So, it is not clear what version of this prophecy that V&I are working off of. I believe that it is most similar to Aemon's vision (they definitely seem to know about the three heads).

[Rattenhoofd]

But which version of the prophecy are they going off of? Melisandre, Benerro and Aemon give us three different versions of the prophecy. Melisandre and Aemon agree that this prophecy is in relation to the threat from the north. However, Melisandre is only looking for one person while Aemon is looking for three. Benerro, while agreeing that AA is coming to hold back the dark, his version seems to be more metaphorical. The darkness in his version seems to be slavery and AA is coming to release them all from slavery and he agrees with Melisandre that there is only one hero. So, it is not clear what version of this prophecy that V&I are working off of. I believe that it is most similar to Aemon's vision (they definitely seem to know about the three heads).

Exactly. What adds to this is the question about V&I's motivations. Neither of them has much chance of exceeding the level of power they have now, but still they take a lot of risks, and invest all this time and resources into helping people who seemingly won't give them a big return on it.

It seems clear to be that their goal is either to bring peace to Westeros or to fulfill prophecy. Why would two Essos boys devote everything to establish stable rule over Westeros, even creating a lot of turmoil in Essos for it? And why would they support both Aegon and Dany instead of sending all of their help to just one of them?

[The Dames do Moan]

Exactly. What adds to this is the question about V&I's motivations. Neither of them has much chance of exceeding the level of power they have now, but still they take a lot of risks, and invest all this time and resources into helping people who seemingly won't give them a big return on it.

It seems clear to be that their goal is either to bring peace to Westeros or to fulfill prophecy. Why would two Essos boys devote everything to establish stable rule over Westeros, even creating a lot of turmoil in Essos for it? And why would they support both Aegon and Dany instead of sending all of their help to just one of them?

My thoughts were that they wanted to put (f)Aegon on the iron throne because it's Illyrios son. I don't think they cared about Dany really until after she hatched the eggs and saw it as an opportunity for Aegon to partner with her.

I mean if they cared about Dany so much or they were huge Targ supporters why did they let her and Viserys spend there whole lives as Beggars and living on the street running from King Bobby's hired knives and only take her in 6 months before aGoT events started? If she was that intricate they would not take the chance of her dying.

i agree that along with LF they are the most influential people, I just don't but them doing everything for the realm when they have caused so much destruction in the realm and were trying to start a war between Lannister and Stark and now create strife between tyrell and Lannister. I mean they killed Kevan because he was creating peace.

[bent branch]

Exactly. What adds to this is the question about V&I's motivations. Neither of them has much chance of exceeding the level of power they have now, but still they take a lot of risks, and invest all this time and resources into helping people who seemingly won't give them a big return on it.

It seems clear to be that their goal is either to bring peace to Westeros or to fulfill prophecy. Why would two Essos boys devote everything to establish stable rule over Westeros, even creating a lot of turmoil in Essos for it? And why would they support both Aegon and Dany instead of sending all of their help to just one of them?

I agree with you. At the time that Varys came to work for Aerys he was probably richer than Aerys. It doesn't make sense to me that he would do that without some greater purpose in mind. There are many that think the reason he is doing what he doing is to put a family member on the throne. This would be a family member who doesn't know Varys is family and can never know Varys is family. In other words, Varys is just doing it for the warm fuzzies. That argument doesn't work for me. I think Varys is thinking much bigger than that and it is indeed about the prophecies.

My thoughts were that they wanted to put (f)Aegon on the iron throne because it's Illyrios son. I don't think they cared about Dany really until after she hatched the eggs and saw it as an opportunity for Aegon to partner with her.

I mean if they cared about Dany so much or they were huge Targ supporters why did they let her and Viserys spend there whole lives as Beggars and living on the street running from King Bobby's hired knives and only take her in 6 months before aGoT events started? If she was that intricate they would not take the chance of her dying.

i agree that along with LF they are the most influential people, I just don't but them doing everything for the realm when they have caused so much destruction in the realm and were trying to start a war between Lannister and Stark and now create strife between tyrell and Lannister. I mean they killed Kevan because he was creating peace.

Here is the thing. During that whole time Varys knew where Viserys and Dany were. They were taken in by various people regularly enough that Dany learned to read and write. Although Viserys and Dany had to move around a lot, they did survive eight years on their own. At the time they were kicked out by their servants, Viserys was 13 and Dany 5. This is an immense testament to Viserys despite his being an asshole.

So looking at the situation more closely, we see that while they were with Willem Darry they were relatively safe. Once he died they were in one location without any protection. It was probably Varys that got the servants to push Viserys and Dany out. Once they were out on the street, Varys probably had his agents set up safe situations for them to enter. However, if they stayed too long in one place Robert became concerned that they were gathering supporters and would think about having them killed. When this happened Jon Arryn talked Robert out of it, but Varys probably also told his agents to encourage the children to move on. This was the "knives" that Dany doubted ever existed and Robert never sent. Once they were on the move again, Varys would have his agents set up another relatively safe situation for them.

Why did Varys never move them into hiding? Because if Varys "lost sight" of them, his value and loyalty to Robert would come into question. The best Varys could do under the circumstances was keep moving them from one safe house to another. It was rough on Viserys and Dany, but there really wasn't any better solution.

Why would they arrange Dany's marriage to Drogo? Well, we are told that straight up. The Targs couldn't be restored without an army and the Gold Company wasn't enough. They needed more of an army and that is where Drogo's khalasar came in.

Why was Dany given the dragon eggs? Dany was given the dragon eggs in the hope she would hatch them. Although many people seem to find the idea that the eggs were given to Dany with the hope she would hatch them unbelievable, we have to look at two things. The first is that the Targs had a history of trying to hatch dragon eggs. This is what Targs did. Even Targs that seemed perfectly stable felt the need to hatch those eggs. And of the Targs we have known, many of them absolutely believed that one day there would be dragons again.

Why give the eggs to Dany rather than Viserys or Aegon? Because of the prophecy. Daenerys "Stormborn" was actually the one who prophecy indicated could hatch those eggs. Being born on an active volcanic island in the middle of a raging storm was a good indication that Dany was finally the one who could hatch those eggs. And it turned out she was.

Finally, I found this interesting from an interview with Conleth Hill:

“I think I’ve been given some kind of insight by a combination of [showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss] and George R.R. [Martin, the author of the series] that ultimately he was positive,” says Hill. “It wasn’t malevolent or greedy or egotistical on his part — it’s bigger than that. But it’s a real divergence from the books, so it’s as new and exciting to me as it is to you.”

Many people are saying at this point that D&D have "changed" Varys, but I wonder how true that is. Here is the link for anyone who would like to read the entire interview:

http://www.yahoo.com/tv/game-of-thrones-premiere-conleth-hill-interview-116075739430.html

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Welcome!

I think that if you look 4-5 pages back there will be at least 2-3 threads about the "Dragons with 3 heads" you might find them interesting.

As for what I believe, I disagree. I believe that one dragon had three heads.

[Rattenhoofd]

There are many that think the reason he is doing what he doing is to put a family member on the throne. This would be a family member who doesn't know Varys is family and can never know Varys is family. In other words, Varys is just doing it for the warm fuzzies. That argument doesn't work for me. I think Varys is thinking much bigger than that and it is indeed about the prophecies.

One explanation for this is Dame Groans' suggestion that they want to put Illyrio's son on the throne, but that still seems to me like a humongous investment with little chance of return. There's already not so much power and money left for V&I to gain, and if Illyrio had a son, why not make him powerful in Pentos with relative easy?

i agree that along with LF they are the most influential people,

Many seem to assign LF a huge role in the story, but I don't feel it. He has lost Tywin's support and hasn't got any high-ranking friends left. Someone is bound to find out Alayne = Sansa sooner rather than later, which means LF is doomed. I don't see him surviving the whole upcoming book.

[The Dames do Moan]

I agree with you. At the time that Varys came to work for Aerys he was probably richer than Aerys. It doesn't make sense to me that he would do that without some greater purpose in mind. There are many that think the reason he is doing what he doing is to put a family member on the throne. This would be a family member who doesn't know Varys is family and can never know Varys is family. In other words, Varys is just doing it for the warm fuzzies. That argument doesn't work for me. I think Varys is thinking much bigger than that and it is indeed about the prophecies.

Here is the thing. During that whole time Varys knew where Viserys and Dany were. They were taken in by various people regularly enough that Dany learned to read and write. Although Viserys and Dany had to move around a lot, they did survive eight years on their own. At the time they were kicked out by their servants, Viserys was 13 and Dany 5. This is an immense testament to Viserys despite his being an asshole.

So looking at the situation more closely, we see that while they were with Willem Darry they were relatively safe. Once he died they were in one location without any protection. It was probably Varys that got the servants to push Viserys and Dany out. Once they were out on the street, Varys probably had his agents set up safe situations for them to enter. However, if they stayed too long in one place Robert became concerned that they were gathering supporters and would think about having them killed. When this happened Jon Arryn talked Robert out of it, but Varys probably also told his agents to encourage the children to move on. This was the "knives" that Dany doubted ever existed and Robert never sent. Once they were on the move again, Varys would have his agents set up another relatively safe situation for them.

Why did Varys never move them into hiding? Because if Varys "lost sight" of them, his value and loyalty to Robert would come into question. The best Varys could do under the circumstances was keep moving them from one safe house to another. It was rough on Viserys and Dany, but there really wasn't any better solution.

Why would they arrange Dany's marriage to Drogo? Well, we are told that straight up. The Targs couldn't be restored without an army and the Gold Company wasn't enough. They needed more of an army and that is where Drogo's khalasar came in.

Why was Dany given the dragon eggs? Dany was given the dragon eggs in the hope she would hatch them. Although many people seem to find the idea that the eggs were given to Dany with the hope she would hatch them unbelievable, we have to look at two things. The first is that the Targs had a history of trying to hatch dragon eggs. This is what Targs did. Even Targs that seemed perfectly stable felt the need to hatch those eggs. And of the Targs we have known, many of them absolutely believed that one day there would be dragons again.

Why give the eggs to Dany rather than Viserys or Aegon? Because of the prophecy. Daenerys "Stormborn" was actually the one who prophecy indicated could hatch those eggs. Being born on an active volcanic island in the middle of a raging storm was a good indication that Dany was finally the one who could hatch those eggs. And it turned out she was.

Finally, I found this interesting from an interview with Conleth Hill:

Many people are saying at this point that D&D have "changed" Varys, but I wonder how true that is. Here is the link for anyone who would like to read the entire interview:

http://www.yahoo.com/tv/game-of-thrones-premiere-conleth-hill-interview-116075739430.html

I could maybe buy the idea that Varys was working to fulfill a prophecy and if so, it was with (f)Aegon. I just don't think Viserys and Dany were part of his plans longer term. Illyrio straight up tells Tyrion he thought Dany would die on the Dothraki Sea(don't have the quote on me sorry). Also, I don't see The Dothraki originally meeting up with Aegon because there is no way Viserys would play second fiddle to someone.

To me it just makes more sense that there plan was for the Dothraki to invade and so further discourse in Westoros before (f)Aegon came. Also, that they would keep Westoresi's focus off Aegon and on te invading Dothraki.

But to each his own.

[The Dames do Moan]

One explanation for this is Dame Groans' suggestion that they want to put Illyrio's son on the throne, but that still seems to me like a humongous investment with little chance of return. There's already not so much power and money left for V&I to gain, and if Illyrio had a son, why not make him powerful in Pentos with relative easy?

Many seem to assign LF a huge role in the story, but I don't feel it. He has lost Tywin's support and hasn't got any high-ranking friends left. Someone is bound to find out Alayne = Sansa sooner rather than later, which means LF is doomed. I don't see him surviving the whole upcoming book.

In regards to LF, I agree that I don't think He'll survive the upcoming book. He isn't the most powerful man but to this point him and Varys have influenced the events throughout the story more than anyone else, IMO.

[Crippledtank]

I agree they are not all Targaryens. Tyrion, as a Targ bastard raised in the westerlands, would be Tyrion Hill and not Tyrion Targaryen. But I am convinced that the 3HD are the heroes of the book -- the war generals for the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. YG was introduced way too late and is too minor a character to be a head of the dragon and a main hero in the war. He is a plot device to give Dany a worthy adversary to defeat when she arrived in Westeros. I highly doubt he makes it to the endgame. And yes, while he has sufficient dragon blood (maybe as much as anyone in the series), he just is not important enough character to be one of the ultimate "main" heroes. He is the mummer's dragon -- one of the lies that Dany must slay. The structure of the story does not work (IMHO) all of a sudden to make this relatively minor, non-POV character a major dragon rider/savior of the world. He may ride a dragon, but only for the purpose of dying in a dramatic battle -- not for the purpose of being one of the three "final" dragon riders.

I kind of agree with this

Whether he's actually rhaegars son is a whole other topic I guess but I do strongly believe that he is nothing but a plot device..... He's giving dany a head start on conquering westeros they'll join forces and poor aegon will follow the path of Quentin Martel (of course all speculation on my part)

Basically dany has 2 books to conquer westeros (if she does) I think if we want to believe her quest is possible to complete within that time frame then she needs a stronghold in part of westeros already.

Stormborns invasion to start from the storm lands (nerdgasm)

[Rattenhoofd]

In regards to LF, I agree that I don't think He'll survive the upcoming book. He isn't the most powerful man but to this point him and Varys have influenced the events throughout the story more than anyone else, IMO.

That's a fair point, though I don't see how LF has had more influence than, say, Tywin.

I could maybe buy the idea that Varys was working to fulfill a prophecy and if so, it was with (f)Aegon. I just don't think Viserys and Dany were part of his plans longer term. Illyrio straight up tells Tyrion he thought Dany would die on the Dothraki Sea

A very good point. My problem with this is that Illyrio not knowing her as a subject of prophecy would make giving her the dragon eggs either "just" an opulent rich-guy gift or a random long shot, which makes the fact that she actually woke them from stone insufferably lucky.

[The Dames do Moan]

That's a fair point, though I don't see how LF has had more influence than, say, Tywin.

A very good point. My problem with this is that Illyrio not knowing her as a subject of prophecy would make giving her the dragon eggs either "just" an opulent rich-guy gift or a random long shot, which makes the fact that she actually woke them from stone insufferably lucky.

Yes, I think it was just an opulent rich guy gift. LF, orchestrated the destruction of Ned, and brought the entire Stark/Lannister feud to a boil. Some even say whispered in Joff's ear so he would kill Ned. Led Cateyln down the entirely wrong road so she would capture Tyrion. had a King assanaited (Joffrey), brought the Tyrells with Lannisters to ensure Stannis wouldn't take KL, had a hand murdered (Jon Arryn), killed another Lord protector regent (?) in Lysa, has perhaps the key to the North in Sansa under his control (for now) even though he orchestrated the destruction of her house, her mothers house (Tully) and her aunts house (Arryn). has worked himself into a position of nowhere to become basically The most powerful person of the Vale and also Lord of Harrenhall, paramount of the Riverlands.

No joke, Tywin is pretty powerful though and if he wanted to I think he and many other people could have crushed LF. That was the key to LF's influence though, nobody in-universe really understands fully how much he has save for maybe Varys.

[ThinMintMafia]

Welcome... to the land of a thousand theories!

I myself have always believed something completely different, that it isn't three people we're looking for but four. One being the dragon and three being the heads. That's just how I read it when first the Undying say to Dany ... three heads has the dragon ... and I've never been able to shake it. Because the Undying are speaking specifically about Dany at this point ( ... child of three ... "Three?" She does not understand ... three heads has the dragon ... ) I believe Dany is the dragon. The three heads I see as having a few possibilities.

a) the three heads are her dragons, that's it, no mystery (which would suck)

b) its three people that need to be standing with her at the end for her to be victorious against the Others

c) its purely metaphorical and the three heads are three rolls Dany must play to become the hero needed

Or a combination of all three lol

With c) she has already played the role of Khaleesi and ruler of Mereen, she has already sat on those two thrones and learned for the experiences and changed. With b) I have gone through many combinations of people that she might need. The only common person for all is Tyrion. Not because he might have Targaryen blood but because he has been reading about dragons his whole life. I think its his knowledge that makes him valuable, just as it always has. And who else might have some idea of how to make a saddle for a dragon?

But, yes, I realize this will never be a popular theory as it has nothing to do with anyone riding the dragons other than Dany. I think if anyone else gets on a dragon it will be Tyrion, but by his wits not his blood. We have learned from the recent novella's that an unmounted dragon will follow along and fight alongside others, so it is possible that the unmounted dragon will end up being taken over by Bran once they reach Westeros. But, that's another theory for another day.

As for Varys and Illyrio, the question of what those two rascals are up too is my favorite topic to make theories upon. And every time it has come back to one question needing to be answered to make anything about their actions make any sense: Why did Varys accept the position with Aerys II in the first place? He had a good thing going with Illyrio in Pentos, all his little mice were trained and in place, the money was rolling in... Why walk away from that to serve a King that, by that time was widely known to be insane and paranoid? Gold? But surely someone like Varys wouldn't have blindly gone to serve him, so he must have known Aerys had been to see the Iron Bank and that Tywin had needed to bail the King out on that. So why did he go? But again, that's a theory that goes way off topic for this thread. Just food for thought as it was brought up.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Yes, I think it was just an opulent rich guy gift. LF, orchestrated the destruction of Ned, and brought the entire Stark/Lannister feud to a boil. Some even say whispered in Joff's ear so he would kill Ned. Led Cateyln down the entirely wrong road so she would capture Tyrion. had a King assanaited (Joffrey), brought the Tyrells with Lannisters to ensure Stannis wouldn't take KL, had a hand murdered (Jon Arryn), killed another Lord protector regent (?) in Lysa, has perhaps the key to the North in Sansa under his control (for now) even though he orchestrated the destruction of her house, her mothers house (Tully) and her aunts house (Arryn). has worked himself into a position of nowhere to become basically The most powerful person of the Vale and also Lord of Harrenhall, paramount of the Riverlands.

No joke, Tywin is pretty powerful though and if he wanted to I think he and many other people could have crushed LF. That was the key to LF's influence though, nobody in-universe really understands fully how much he has save for maybe Varys.

Couldn't agree more. I would just add that he may have even had some degree of influence in the death of Robert...

"Is there word of the king?" Ned demanded. "Just how long does Robert intend to hunt?"

"Given his preferences, I believe he'd stay in the forest until you and the queen both die of old age," Lord Petyr replied with a faint smile. "Lacking that, I imagine he'll return as soon as he's killed something. They found the white hart, it seems . . . or rather, what remained of it. Some wolves found it first, and left His Grace scarcely more than a hoof and a horn. Robert was in a fury, until he heard talk of some monstrous boar deeper in the forest. Then nothing would do but he must have it.

Eddard XII, Game 45

[UtherSnow]

Welcome Rattenhoofd.....

I'm sure you're finding out that there's plenty of thought, observations and theories on everything with this world. A lot think the 'dragon has three heads' equates to three dragonriders. Just as many will beg to differ and offer reasoning too. You'll see how things roll out, and never write off anything before you've had a good think about the topic is my advice.

According to some thinking, Aegon would well be a Blackfyre. In others, he's Illyrio's son. Whatever he is, this kid's been groomed to be a king. Someone's taken the archetype and formed a curriculum for Aegon to study. This takes in a variety of topics: Politics, Religion, Martial training and life amongst the smallfolk too. On paper, he would make an ideal monarch. In practice always proves whether or not all the training was worthwhile. Basically, you can't tell before he sit on The Iron Throne.

Essentially, Dany was a pawn in Viserys' game. Until he proved to be as mad as Aerys, and Drogo crowns him. Can you really say Varys or Illyrio saw that coming all along? That begs a question why they allowed it to happen when they could've gotten rid of a bad apple, They could've brokered a deal with Drogo directly, perhaps with Dany appreciating more what's to be gained.

How could Varys and Illyrio know Jon's identity? How did either influence Jon's decision to join The Night's Watch? It's really going out there without good facts to link them in.

To know who Jon really is, what needs to have happened? Was Varys included in Rhaegar's plans concerning Lyanna? I feel this is doubtful. There are no clues to point to this. As only Ned and Howland Reed survive the outcome of the fight at ToJ, to reach Lyanna..... How do whispers reach Varys? Nothing remains to link with helping Jon's decision to follow his Uncle, Benjen. Jon's motivation for joining seems more from how Catelyn has always been since Ned brought the bastard home.

Jon as AAR? Don't forget, Melissandre has pronounced Stannis is AAR. It's a massive swing to change to Jon. It throws all she's ever professed into her own flames. How can you believe her now? She's utterly convinced so many, they'll follow her blindly whatever she says or does.

I can't see this trio being the 'three heads of the dragon'. I think that means more, and it should not be linked to three dragons must have three riders. That's one of those misconceptions some feel must be brought in. Thinking may return to Aegon's conquest, but, I'd wonder if it's more about the right combination for successful government.

That would point towards Monarch + Hand + (AN Other). Probably the 3rd could be Defender? So, Dany + Tyrion + Jon = right combination?

Tyrion proved he was more than ready for the challenge before, when Tywin had him cover the role. In fact, you could say Tyrion was doing a far better job than Tywin. I think he's the right choice for Hand.

Dany hasn't done anything that's proved to be lasting. She bits and bats between this and that without taking a grip. The person she lacks in her company is someone capable of making calls and offering advice, like a Hand would do. All she's had around her are military people. No one has had clear roles to cover and deal with. Too many mistakes. Thinks too much of heading to Westeros. To desert Meereen would be as wrong as leaving Astapor and Yunkai with weak governments without some kind of garrison. Dany would have learned nothing.

Jon hasn't learned too much about leadership just yet. In many ways, he's the accidental hero of the hour. As things are now, where the books have reached, there's no hope ahead for Jon. On paper, he's out of the reckoning.

That makes the three heads only have one candidate that's worthy. Where's Tyrion currently? Not in a place to be effective as Hand.

For now, there are no heads to fill the spots to make three heads of a dragon work. Let's hope there's going to be ground gained during the course of the next book.

[Rattenhoofd]

Thanks for the informative reply!

I've read up on theories about (f)Aegon, and while some of them definitely hold water, I'm still convinced that he's the real deal.

The question what exactly V&I knew about Dany and what their plans with her were, is a very big one. Them knowing her as a subject of prophecy would raise questions, them not holding her to any value would be weird aswell. Very tough call for anyone to make, I think.

I read somewhere that Varys advised Ned to go the Tower of Joy (anyone got source on this?), which implies that he knew about R+L. After dutiful Ned comes back from the war with a surprise bastard, it wouldn't be too difficult for Varys to piece it together and figure out Jon's identity.

Melisandre has been wondering why Jon keeps showing up in her fires whenever she's looking for information about AA, it won't take too long for her to figure out he's AA. I don't see any problems here.

I agree on Dany not being a very good ruler up until now, but for me the main reason is that she should've gone to Westeros a while ago, but feels too bad about slavery to leave Essos, which I think is incredibly stupid.

Definitely disagree on Jon. Nobody here (me included) seems to think he will stay dead, and I feel he has shown a huge aptitude for leadership, navigating the situation at the wall, combined with the arrival of the wildlings, quite deftly. The only problem here is that most of the NW are a bunch of bigoted idiots.

I share your hope that the next book will give us enough information to eliminate some of the theories and gain ground on some of the others.

[BalerionTheCat]

I will never believe V&I have made the same mistake as most people by dismissing the widely known stories about The Others as fiction, so they know The Others are a real thing,

I don't think Varys is more aware of the Others and the Long Night that anyone else in KL. At a council meeting with Tywin:

Varys sighed. “They have surely earned death, Your Grace, none can deny it. And yet, perhaps we might be wiser to send them to the Night’s Watch. We have had disturbing messages from the Wall of late. Of wildlings astir ...”

OK, he is counseling to send the Gold Clock deserter to the Wall. But just because of wildlings unrest. He is not insisting much: "yet, perhaps we might be wiser" and "disturbing messages".

[AllOfTheHours]

Hi guys, I'm new to the forums, so I apologise if this theory was posted already, or if I'm posting it in the wrong place.

My theory is that “the dragon has three heads” means it’s three different persons, and that those are:

1. Jon, Azor Ahai. Ment to lead the battle against The Others. I have no doubt that V&I know who Jon really is , though I can't say if they had a hand in placing him at the wall or that's just a lucky coincedence. Same thing goes for Melisandre; were V&I involved in sending her or not? I'm having a hard time estimating how much influence they have outside of Westeros and Pentos. Either way, as soon as Stannis dies, Melisandre will finally realise Jon is AA, tell him about it, and possibly even (help him) upgrade Longclaw into Lightbringer.

2. Daenerys, Mother of Dragons. Ment to wake the dragons from stone. Given three dragon eggs by Illyrio. If V&I hadn't been sure that Dany was MoD, they would never have given her three valuable dragon eggs, so it stands to reason that Dany is given the eggs because they know she's the one to wake them from stone. I have no idea what role exactly the Dothraki play in this though, and marrying off Dany does come off as throwing her in at the deep end. Why not keep Dany safely in Pentos and open Big Illy's Dragon Egg Fertilization Company?

3. Aegon, The Prince that was Promised. Was ment to become King. Secretly saved from death by Varys and prepared for rule onder supervision of Jon Connington.

Together they form the Fire, to defeat Ice (The Others).

Ofcourse I welcome any criticism/disproving/questions :)

Hi Welcome to the Forums!

This is exactly what I believe too! And I know some other people who do to. So we support your reading of the text and your conclusions! :)

I think a lot of ®Aegon shippers believe that Varys is in on the PtwP prophecy (I mean, being at Court with Rhaegar, I doubt he could have escaped hearing about it). So I think it is reasonable that even if he didn't know about the 3 heads part or take it literally, he did know that the PtWP came from the line of Arys/Rhaella, so after Rhaegar was killed, he knew he had to save Aegon.)

One explanation for this is Dame Groans' suggestion that they want to put Illyrio's son on the throne, but that still seems to me like a humongous investment with little chance of return. There's already not so much power and money left for V&I to gain, and if Illyrio had a son, why not make him powerful in Pentos with relative easy?

Many seem to assign LF a huge role in the story, but I don't feel it. He has lost Tywin's support and hasn't got any high-ranking friends left. Someone is bound to find out Alayne = Sansa sooner rather than later, which means LF is doomed. I don't see him surviving the whole upcoming book.

I agree, the usual lures of King's Landing aren't a lure for V&I. As an eunuch, Varys can't be awarded a lady wife and lands for sons to inherit, for his service to Aegon. And Illyrio is already crazy rich and powerful and successful. I think tPtwP prophecy makes sense, ever since Varys was cut and heard a voice in the flames that haunted him. R'hllor intercedes again lol.

For Varys and Illyrio's motivation to just be to start another Blackfyre rebellion, means they risk loosing everything they have only to gain...not a whole lot. They could have a secret pride knowing they placed a Blackfyre on the IT and no one knows (not even the secret BF king). Or they could reveal Aegon to be fAegon after the fighting, but then they risk being slaughtered by everyone in Westeros when they get seriously upset at being tricked. If Aegon is fake, I think they would have told him who he really was and raised him in Illyrio's manse (much safer then traveling the world with JonCon), and then when the time was right they could launch into another Blackfyre rebellion. There is no reason for him to pretend to be Aegon for his entire life and even believe it himself, in fact that ruins the effect of putting a Blackfyre on the throne at all, since he doesn't even identify with the Blackfyre history/legacy/struggles.

I think Aegon is legit and is the third head of the dragon, which is why we get the whole long scene in tHotU where Rhaegar says Aegon is the PtwP and then looks straight at Dany (like hello, this involves you too, Dany).

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If Varys and Illyrio know about the Others, then there is little question that they believe Aegon is TDTWP and must be in Westeros, safe, and wield enough power to unite the seven kingdoms in order to save the world.

If they don't know about the Others, then Varys is a Targ loyalist, and Illyrio is in it for the reward. Varys was always the brains in that partnership. Illyrio is along for the ride as far as it can take him.