"Hey Robert, Lyanna didn't want to be with you"

[John Doe]

Yeah, it's no surprise that he owes most to the richest house in the realm.

[Rhaegarslance]

If he knew she had not been raped, he would probably have thought about it when Robert mentioned it. It's the first thing that comes to mind.

We also have to consider the fact that however she did die, Ned is the one who told everybody that she died.

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

So if Lyanna wasn't raped, then Ned is the one who was telling everybody that she was and was confirming the prior notion (that Rhaegar had kidnapped and was raping Lyanna) upon his delivery of the news of her death. Which is a rather odd thing for Ned to have done.

We also know this because Robert certainly thinks that she died due to what was done to her.

“She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean.”

Robert believes that Lyanna's body needs to be in a place where it can be washed clean. Which implies that he thinks that whatever was done to her and caused her to die was evil and dirty. And as the prior quote tells us, Ned is the one that brought him the news that Lyanna was dead, so Ned is the one who told Robert that Lyanna died after evil and dirty things had been done to her.

So not only do Robert and Bran tells us that Lyanna was raped, but Ned was also telling people that she was raped. Why would Ned be doing this if she wasn't raped, especially as someone else pointed out that the idea that she was raped increases, and not decreases, the chance that people would question Jon's parentage?

[Jankmaster]

I like to think that maybe Lyanna and Rhaegar left together willingly but in a fashion similar to Robert not really knowing Lyanna she didn't really know Rhaegar. Lyanna believed she was in love, but Rhaegar was only looking for a piece of his prophecy.

That's not to say his actions were made out of malice or spite, but I wonder if perhaps Rhaegar did suffer from a detachment from the feelings of others. Are we ever given a scene or reference that gives off a lot of emotion by him? Even during the birth of his son he's talking about the prophecy.

As to the whole roses she was clutching we're to be a piece of Winterfell her home and memories of a simpler time but I could be wrong.

[TimJames]

We also have to consider the fact that however she did die, Ned is the one who told everybody that she died.

So if Lyanna wasn't raped, then Ned is the one who was telling everybody that she was and was confirming the prior notion (that Rhaegar had kidnapped and was raping Lyanna) upon his delivery of the news of her death. Which is a rather odd thing for Ned to have done.

We also know this because Robert certainly thinks that she died due to what was done to her.

Robert believes that Lyanna's body needs to be in a place where it can be washed clean. Which implies that he thinks that whatever was done to her and caused her to die was evil and dirty. And as the prior quote tells us, Ned is the one that brought him the news that Lyanna was dead, so Ned is the one who told Robert that Lyanna died after evil and dirty things had been done to her.

So not only do Robert and Bran tells us that Lyanna was raped, but Ned was also telling people that she was raped. Why would Ned be doing this if she wasn't raped, especially as someone else pointed out that the idea that she was raped increases, and not decreases, the chance that people would question Jon's parentage?

This is all very true.

Bran said that Lyanna was raped, and he must have heard it from Eddard. But since Eddard was the last one to see her, it makes sense that he would be the one who confirms her fate.

[TimJames]

“She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean.”

As for this quote, I think that when Robert said this what he really meant was that Lyanna should still be alive. He was imagining her sitting under a fruit tree, not buried under one.

[Lord BitterRaven]

I imagine someone has already made this comment, but Ned didn't know that Lyanna willingly went with Rhaegar. But he found out at the Tower of Joy. Not to mention that Lyanna complained to Ned about Robert while they were betrothed.

[Rhaegarslance]

I imagine someone has already made this comment, but Ned didn't know that Lyanna willingly went with Rhaegar. But he found out at the Tower of Joy. Not to mention that Lyanna complained to Ned about Robert while they were betrothed.

Lyanna complained about Robert the night of their betrothal, not during their betrothal..

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

We have no idea how she felt during their betrothal, or how she was feeling after having been betrothed to him for the next 3 years.

[Rhaegarslance]

“She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean.”

As for this quote, I think that when Robert said this what he really meant was that Lyanna should still be alive. He was imagining her sitting under a fruit tree, not buried under one.

The context of the quote is Lyanna being buried in the crypts of Winterfell though

“She was more beautiful than that,” the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna’s face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. “Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?” His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. “She deserved more than darkness...”

“She was a Stark of Winterfell,” Ned said quietly. “This is her place.”

“She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean.”

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.”

[TimJames]

The context of the quote is Lyanna being buried in the crypts of Winterfell though

I was referring to what Robert subconsciously meant.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Lyanna complained about Robert the night of their betrothal, not during their betrothal..

We have no idea how she felt during their betrothal, or how she was feeling after having been betrothed to him for the next 3 years.

You're staking quite a bit on Robert being the only person in ASOIAF who was actually right about Rhaegar...

[Lady Darry]

You're staking quite a bit on Robert being the only person in ASOIAF who was actually right about Rhaegar...

But Robert had a great source: Ned. Ned talked with Lyanna before she died, and even if she didn’t say much about Rhaegar, Ned could talk with those mysterious ‘they’. So Nad had at least two sources. It is possible that Ned never found out what really happend (which also means that Howland Reed is in the dark). But if he knew that Lyanna was not raped, there was no need for him to stay silent.

This is all very true.

Bran said that Lyanna was raped, and he must have heard it from Eddard. But since Eddard was the last one to see her, it makes sense that he would be the one who confirms her fate.

Bran could also haerd it form Luwin

"Do you recall your history, Bran?" the maester said as they walked. "Tell Osha who they were and what they did, if you can."

...

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

Bran VII

[Rhaegarslance]

But Robert had a great source: Ned. Ned talked with Lyanna before she died, and even if she didn’t say much about Rhaegar, Ned could talk with those mysterious ‘they’. So Nad had at least two sources. It is possible that Ned never found out what really happend (which also means that Howland Reed is in the dark). But if he knew that Lyanna was not raped, there was no need for him to stay silent.

Bran could also haerd it form Luwin

Good find on the Luwin quote. That means that historically speaking Lyanna was raped.

[TimJames]

Bran could also haerd it form Luwin

But where would Luwin have heard it from? Eddard, aka one of the only two people to discover Lyanna's final end.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

But if he knew that Lyanna was not raped, there was no need for him to stay silent.

Couldn't it be considered a kindness to Robert to not let him know that Lyanna would rather have run off with a married prince than be honorably married to him ("him" meaning Robert)? It sounds like something Ned would do (like giving Cersei a chance to escape with her children, for example); the noble thing instead of the cunning thing.

I would think that there is every need for Ned to stay as silent as he possibly can on the whole subject. He is better off not saying anything that might pique Robert's curiosity and get him all inquisitive and wondering. Far safer to leave him in the dark with the wrong idea (if indeed Robert's ideas are wrong) than to have him start asking questions or putting two and two together.

[The Wolves]

But where would Luwin have heard it from? Eddard, aka one of the only two people to discover Lyanna's final end.

Bran could have heard it from the Smallfolk of Winterfell. Catelyn heard gossip about Ashara from the ladies in Winterfell so it'll be no stretch for Bran to hear gossip.

And of course the Northerners hear Lyanna was kidnapped and they hear gossip from their lords and the South so they talk and get it mixed up. Even in AGOT when Cat kidnapped Tyrion Bran was hearing all kinds of ridiculous things while in Winterfell.

[Rhaegarslance]

Bran could have heard it from the Smallfolk of Winterfell. Catelyn heard gossip about Ashara from the ladies in Winterfell so it'll be no stretch for Bran to hear gossip.

And of course the Northerners hear Lyanna was kidnapped and they hear gossip from their lords and the South so they talk and get it mixed up. Even in AGOT when Cat kidnapped Tyrion Bran was hearing all kinds of ridiculous things while in Winterfell.

Bran mentions it after Luwin tells him to tell Osha his history lessons

[The Wolves]

Bran mentions it after Luwin tells him to tell Osha his history lessons

Okay he even tells Osha that Robert fought a war to get Lyanna back when Robert fought the war because because his head was called for by the king. Obviously Bran has got some wrong information.

I don't think Ned told his kids that Lyanna was raped, yes he talked about Robert but Lyanna he hardly talked about even Arya says so. Bran probably heard gossip and got a romantisized version of the rebellion and from there came to the idea that Lyanna was raped and Robert tried to save her.

[John Doe]

And what are the accounts of people saying she went willingly?

[Lady Darry]

Couldn't it be considered a kindness to Robert to not let him know that Lyanna would rather have run off with a married prince than be honorably married to him ("him" meaning Robert)? It sounds like something Ned would do (like giving Cersei a chance to escape with her children, for example); the noble thing instead of the cunning thing.

I would think that there is every need for Ned to stay as silent as he possibly can on the whole subject. He is better off not saying anything that might pique Robert's curiosity and get him all inquisitive and wondering. Far safer to leave him in the dark with the wrong idea (if indeed Robert's ideas are wrong) than to have him start asking questions or putting two and two together.

Yes, it could be considered a kindness to Robert. But it’s one think to tell Robert that Lyanna would rather have run off with a married prince than be honorably married to him and another think to just clarify few things- like rape accusations. Like I said before it would be better for his sister memory, it wouldn’t harm anyone, it would be the truth, it would even keep Jon’s perantage in a bigger dark. Luwin was teaching kids that Lyanna was raped (including Jon). So it’s not only about keeping Robert in the dark and being kind to him. He had enough of a backbone to argue about Ellia&kids, to end Ashara rumors, to dismiss Robert when he was asking about Wylla...

If Robert would start asking question (like: ‘But what were they doing?’), Ned could just dismissed him. Or he could told him, that he doesn’t know.

I mean, Robert ‘knew’ that Rhaegar raped Lyanna more then once, and he still couldn’t figure out she was pregnant and he also belived Wylla story.

I don't think Ned told his kids that Lyanna was raped, yes he talked about Robert but Lyanna he hardly talked about even Arya says so. Bran probably heard gossip and got a romantisized version of the rebellion and from there came to the idea that Lyanna was raped and Robert tried to save her.

He ended all Ashara rumors, but was ok with people talking his sister was raped?

[The Wolves]

He ended all Ashara rumors, but was ok with people talking his sister was raped?

He didn't want Catelyn hurt with the talk of Ashara or a lot of speculation going on about Jon's mother that doesn't mean that he shut up all talk/gossip at Winterfell, Sansa says that Jon's mother was common born that's what she heard.

Ned not correcting things about Lyanna is safer for everyone especially Jon.