"Hey Robert, Lyanna didn't want to be with you"

[Valyrian Fork]

He's generous

Too generous; he's a total spendthrift with the realm's coin, but wastes it on mindless self-indulgence, and he's not actually generous to everyone, just those who have his favor. It's not really a good thing, in his case. Look at the people he's "generous" to: Xalabar Xho, Thoros of Myr, and a bunch of other total randoms. He's not particularly generous to Stannis, or a number of other genuinely talented people who could actually help him govern. It doesn't seem like the Vale has prospered that much during his reign, for example, despite Jon Arryn doing all the hard work for Robert.

On a moral level, his generosity counts for very little. He mostly uses it for self-aggrandizement and to be seen as magnanamous, not actually helping people. It's not what you'd normally call "good", the way that we think of people who give a lot of money to charity or donate their time to help worthy causes or just help out their neighbors are good. He's more like a rich person patronizing the ballet or opera so he can get his name on a building. There are different kinds of generosity from a moral standpoint.

he's talented

Talent isn't a moral trait. Plenty of the most hideous, bad, morally wretched people in the books have talent. It doesn't speak squat to whether someone is a good person or not.

very positive person who liked to laugh and enjoy life

Most people like to enjoy life, that's practically a tautology, but being positive alone isn't actually more or less moral than negativity. Dolorous Edd is a negative, whiny person but he's still a good one; Daario is a total "life of the party/the world is my oyster" type but, he's also an amoral bastard and not really a good person. Joffrey also liked to laugh (at other people) and enjoy life. Are you saying he was a good person too?

[Nami]

True, but, aside from the fact he isn't likely to tell his young child such things, Ned, himself, doesn't know about Gendry until much later, and he has no clue about Bella. Not that I don't believe Ned knew about Robert's infidelities during the war. Does tell you something about Robert and his "love" for Lyanna doesn't it? Perhaps he is more concerned about his ownership of an idealized Lyanna than anything to do with caring about what Lyanna, the real person, wanted or how she felt? That's my guess anyway. Robert believed Lyanna was stolen from him, because he owned her. He believed Rhaegar raped her because he believed he was the only man who had the "right" to have sex with his betrothed. With Robert is all about him and his rights.

Yes being self-centered was one of his most noticeable traits

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Most people like to enjoy life, that's practically a tautology, but being positive alone isn't actually more or less moral than negativity. Dolorous Edd is a negative, whiny person but he's still a good one; Daario is a total "life of the party/the world is my oyster" type but, he's also an amoral bastard and not really a good person. Joffrey also liked to laugh (at other people) and enjoy life. Are you saying he was a good person too?

That's the illusion of Robert's character. People equals being charismatic and fun with being good and happy. He had a destructive behaviour, that's not the same as simply enjoying life. He shut down his demons with "fun". That's not healthy and no one should see that as positive.

[Howling Mad]

That's the illusion of Robert's character. People equals being charismatic and fun with being good and happy. He had a destructive behaviour, that's not the same as simply enjoying life. He shut down his demons with "fun". That's not healthy and no one should see that as positive.

Are you describing Robert Baratheon and Hunter S. Thompson :cool4:

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Let's use the Lyanna Meter for rating men.

Wealth? Rhaegar

Looks? Rhaegar

Emotionally available? Rhaegar

Emotionally Sensitive? Rhaegar

Can sing? Rhaegar

Won a trophy for her? Rhaegar

Respectful to Women thus far? Rhaegar

Fighting Skills? Tied but a sword is more elegant then a warhammer.

Educated? Rhaegar

So... We can see why women prefer Rhaegar over Robert. It's just one of those things. She had modern day values. So he married. By all account it's an unhappy marriage. She wouldn't feel guilty or give it a second thought.

Who said his marriage was unhappy? You know, Barristan Selmy said Elia of Dorne was a kitchen drab compared to Ashara Dayne, but the fact is, when Oberyn speaks of her when they traveled around Westeros looking for bethrothals, she was funny and smart. These are attractive qualities and Rhaegar may have been drawn to her because of her sense of humor and the fact that she didn't take everything seriously. I think this little description of Elia by Oberyn is GRRM way of telling us that Elia was very attractive in her own way. Not every man, especially intelligent ones fall for just beauty and no brains. Stupid people are boring. I'm not saying that can't have other qualities, like kindness and humor that can't make them attractive as well. I'm just saying that you don't have to be a stunner to get someone to notice you. A sharp wit and an easy smile can be just as captivating as beautiful purple eyes.

[Poorboy78]

Interestingly he didn't get the part that Robert was fucking half the kingdom when fighting his "war to get Lyanna back".

While at the same time, Rhaegar was fucking another woman even while he had a devout wife, a daughter and a younger son. Is it okay then if it is just one other woman for Rhaegar while it's a dozen for Robert? And if Robert father a lot of bastard, does Rhaegar get a free pass because he only fathered one on Lyanna?

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Plus, Ned knew nothing about women.

1. He honestly expected Cersie just to pack up and go after he threatened her, Jamie, and her children.

2. He couldn't relate to Sansa at all. She was way more feminine than Arya. He probably viewed Arya as a boy at times.

3. He never trusted Catelyn the truth about Jon. If he was afraid for his trueborn children, he could have told her when Jon left for the Wall.

Ned was honorable, not smart.

Ned kept his promises to Lyanna. That doesn't make him stupid, it makes him loyal.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Not that I don't believe you, but is there a link to where he says that? It sounds familiar, though.

As Little Dragon says above, all this would prove is that Rhaegar had feelings for/was obsessed with Lyanna. I mean, after all, if Robert died at the Trident and that was the last word out of his mouth, would people be saying Lyanna loved him?

Where is it said that Rhaegar's last words were Lyanna? It is said that he died with the name of the woman he loved on his lips. Assuming that was Lyanna is foolhardy. If it was Lyanna, why not just say so? It could have very well have been Elia.

[Nami]

While at the same time, Rhaegar was fucking another woman even while he had a devout wife, a daughter and a younger son. Is it okay then if it is just one other woman for Rhaegar while it's a dozen for Robert? And if Robert father a lot of bastard, does Rhaegar get a free pass because he only fathered one on Lyanna?

I love how you try to cloud the issue by comparing things to what Rhaegar did. I'm talking about Robert.

Rhaegar was not screaming to the heavens that Lyanna was getting raped while at the same time sleeping with half of Westeros. How much he loved her. Not to mention Ned was involved in the war, his sister was supposedly getting raped and Robert was going to brothels. What a guy.

[Rhaegarslance]

While at the same time, Rhaegar was fucking another woman even while he had a devout wife, a daughter and a younger son. Is it okay then if it is just one other woman for Rhaegar while it's a dozen for Robert? And if Robert father a lot of bastard, does Rhaegar get a free pass because he only fathered one on Lyanna?

I'd like to point out that there's no bastards during Robert's betrothal to Lyanna... So the idea that he was fucking half of Westoros is based off nothing in the books. There's nothing saying that he was cheating on Lyanna.

[Nami]

I'd like to point out that there's no bastards during Robert's betrothal to Lyanna... So the idea that he was fucking half of Westoros is based off nothing in the books. There's nothing saying that he was cheating on Lyanna.

Mya Stone.

He was fucking half of Westeros when claiming she was getting raped and fighting his "war for Lyanna".

[Señor de la Tormenta]

its not cheatin

Mya Stone.

He was fucking half of Westeros when claiming she was getting raped and fighting his "war for Lyanna".

Most likely, the rape explanation popped out because Robert lernt that Lyanna died violently.

My educated guess is Lyanna status was "kidnapped" until she was found dead, because she was reaped.

[Poorboy78]

I love how you try to cloud the issue by comparing things to what Rhaegar did. I'm talking about Robert.

Rhaegar was not screaming to the heavens that Lyanna was getting raped while at the same time sleeping with half of Westeros. How much he loved her. Not to mention Ned was involved in the war, his sister was supposedly getting raped and Robert was going to brothels. What a guy.

But on the flip side, Rhaegar was professing his undying love and telling Lyanna that she is his one and only when...Oh yes... I do believe he's already married and with TWO kids. Why... if that doesn't scream true, deep, love that is more meaningful than screwing random girls. I don't know what does!

Another thing I would like to point out is that, he never got any complaint as Lord of Storm End. He just didn't care that much after Lyanna died.

Perhaps he is more concerned about his ownership of an idealized Lyanna than anything to do with caring about what Lyanna, the real person, wanted or how she felt? That's my guess anyway. Robert believed Lyanna was stolen from him, because he owned her. He believed Rhaegar raped her because he believed he was the only man who had the "right" to have sex with his betrothed. With Robert is all about him and his rights.

All Lords and Ladies are this way. THIS is a not a Robert exclusive trait! When Rhaegar became bethroted to Elia, I am sure Elia didn't know the prince but yet came to accept him. Catelyn feel that NED belong to her and when she brought him some other kid, she hated him for him. They did not fall in love, Ned , INHERITED Catelyn. Cersei did not love Robert, certainly not more than her twin, she she was as fond of him as Lyanna was but STILL went through it anyway. Then there is Sansa and Joffrey, Sansa belonged to Joffrey and no one gainsay this. Margery Tyrell later on belong to Joffrey too.

Anyone that is betrothed pretty much can assume that they have the rights to that person. That's just the way it works in Westeros and matchmaking in Westeros is a crap shoot. If you are lucky you like each other. Using that excuse where Robert view Lyanna as "HIS" as a negative point has got to stop.

Everyone view it that way in Westeros. Only a lucky few can marry for love.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

We also have to consider the fact that however she did die, Ned is the one who told everybody that she died.

So if Lyanna wasn't raped, then Ned is the one who was telling everybody that she was and was confirming the prior notion (that Rhaegar had kidnapped and was raping Lyanna) upon his delivery of the news of her death. Which is a rather odd thing for Ned to have done.

We also know this because Robert certainly thinks that she died due to what was done to her.

Robert believes that Lyanna's body needs to be in a place where it can be washed clean. Which implies that he thinks that whatever was done to her and caused her to die was evil and dirty. And as the prior quote tells us, Ned is the one that brought him the news that Lyanna was dead, so Ned is the one who told Robert that Lyanna died after evil and dirty things had been done to her.

So not only do Robert and Bran tells us that Lyanna was raped, but Ned was also telling people that she was raped. Why would Ned be doing this if she wasn't raped, especially as someone else pointed out that the idea that she was raped increases, and not decreases, the chance that people would question Jon's parentage?

This a lot of supposition. It is custom to wash a body that is dead. A woman who has just given birth, well, lets just say, Ned didn't call it her bed of blood for nothing. Ned said she was dead. Hmmm... Ned, went to Starfall to give Ashara back Dawn. The sequence of events is not clear here. Its possible he could have sent Howland Reed to Winterfell to have the Silent Sisters attend to her and to have a crypt made for her beside his father and brother. Most of us believe there are things buried with Lyanna that will prove who Jon is. It makes sense that Howland would be the person that Ned trusted with these things as Howland is the only one that knows what happened.

I think that the fact that Robert and the Starks already believed that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna caused the realm to believe that she was also being raped. I don't think it sounds much like Ned to go about yapping that his sister was raped. He would have thought it disrespectful. There is a passage in a GoT that says that Ned loved her with all of his heart and Robert loved her even more.

There is also a passage where Eddard thinks to himself that he had lived his lies for 14 years and only he knew the price he had paid for it. I do not believe that Ned would have told Robert about the baby being Lyanna's, obviously he did not as it would have hurt his friend more than he had to. Ned, the Quiet Wolf, was also a sensitive and caring person. He stopped all talk of Ashara Dayne at Winterfell. This, I believe anyway was as much a part of Ned's cover up as anything else.

Remember please, all of this went against his nature. It was Lyanna's dying wish that he upheld. He didn't do this of his own volition and only his love for both Robert and Lyanna made him go against his own honorable nature. He acted to save his sister's honor, her child and his best friend's pride and heart. Ned was a good person. The lies haunted him to the day he died.

[SFDanny]

I'd like to point out that there's no bastards during Robert's betrothal to Lyanna... So the idea that he was fucking half of Westoros is based off nothing in the books. There's nothing saying that he was cheating on Lyanna.

Absolutely not true. Mya Stone is born before he is betrothed to Lyanna, but Gendry and Bella are both conceived during the rebellion - remember Bella's tale of how she got her name and Gendry's age - so the idea he was faithful to Lyanna during their betrothal is pure nonsense.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Absolutely not true. Mya Stone is born before he is betrothed to Lyanna, but Gendry and Bella are both conceived during the rebellion - remember Bella's tale of how she got her name and Gendry's age - so the idea he was faithful to Lyanna during their betrothal is pure nonsense.

aswell as the idea that robert was fighting for Lyanna.

Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and Robert did NOTHING. This fact seams not to be adressed enough. Brandon an his companions did, and Rickard did, but not Bob.

Robert fought a rebelion against a family who asked his head for no reason at all. It was either him or them. A rebelion for his own life, and Neds.

[Rhaegarslance]

Mya Stone.

He was fucking half of Westeros when claiming she was getting raped and fighting his "war for Lyanna".

Mya Stone is born before he ever betrothed Lyanna, There's no bastards during his betrothal.

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

This a lot of supposition. It is custom to wash a body that is dead. A woman who has just given birth, well, lets just say, Ned didn't call it her bed of blood for nothing. Ned said she was dead. Hmmm... Ned, went to Starfall to give Ashara back Dawn. The sequence of events is not clear here. Its possible he could have sent Howland Reed to Winterfell to have the Silent Sisters attend to her and to have a crypt made for her beside his father and brother. Most of us believe there are things buried with Lyanna that will prove who Jon is. It makes sense that Howland would be the person that Ned trusted with these things as Howland is the only one that knows what happened.

I think that the fact that Robert and the Starks already believed that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna caused the realm to believe that she was also being raped. I don't think it sounds much like Ned to go about yapping that his sister was raped. He would have thought it disrespectful. There is a passage in a GoT that says that Ned loved her with all of his heart and Robert loved her even more.

There is also a passage where Eddard thinks to himself that he had lived his lies for 14 years and only he knew the price he had paid for it. I do not believe that Ned would have told Robert about the baby being Lyanna's, obviously he did not as it would have hurt his friend more than he had to. Ned, the Quiet Wolf, was also a sensitive and caring person. He stopped all talk of Ashara Dayne at Winterfell. This, I believe anyway was as much a part of Ned's cover up as anything else.

Remember please, all of this went against his nature. It was Lyanna's dying wish that he upheld. He didn't do this of his own volition and only his love for both Robert and Lyanna made him go against his own honorable nature. He acted to save his sister's honor, her child and his best friend's pride and heart. Ned was a good person. The lies haunted him to the day he died.

Ned's thoughts of his lies of 14 years occurs after immediately thinking that he needs to tell Robert the whole truth about the Sack of King's Landing.

“We were not Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard,” Ned said. The time had come for Robert to hear the whole truth, he decided then and there. “Do you remember the Trident, Your Grace?”

“I won my crown there. How should I forget it?”

“You took a wound from Rhaegar,” Ned reminded him. “So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar’s army fled back to King’s Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us.”

Robert gave an impatient shake of his head. “Instead you found that our men had already taken the city. What of it?”

“Not our men,” Ned said patiently. “Lannister men. The lion of Lannister flew over the ramparts, not the crowned stag. And they had taken the city by treachery.”

The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert’s banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King’s Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate.

“Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well,” Robert said. The anger was building in him again. “Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it.”

“You were not there,” Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. “There was no honor in that conquest.”

If Ned's got lies, they're about the Sack.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Mya Stone happened before Lyanna. But

"Well, I might be." When the girl [bella] shrugged, her gown slipped off one shoulder. "They say King Robert fucked my mother when he hid here, back before the battle. Not that he didn't have all the other girls too, but Leslyn says he liked my ma the best."

"[..] At the end they had the usurper hidden in a brothel. What sort of king was that, who would hide behind the skirts of women? [..]. Bells and battle followed, and Robert emerged from his brothel with a blade in hand"

Robert did hide in a brothel (Jon was there to witness it). And Bella is the proof he actually had sex with women. If anyone believes he was just there while his wounds heals or he only had sex with Bella's mom... I have a bridge to sell them.

Most likely, the rape explanation popped out because Robert lernt that Lyanna died violently.

My educated guess is Lyanna status was "kidnapped" until she was found dead, because she was reaped.

I think you're correct about that. The fact she was practically hidden in a shitty tower with three guards and he already hated Rhaegar didn't help.

Ned just couldn't contradict him. Telling Robert she wasn't forcibly taken would require to explain many things that he would have rather kept secret.

[TimJames]

That's the illusion of Robert's character. People equals being charismatic and fun with being good and happy. He had a destructive behaviour, that's not the same as simply enjoying life. He shut down his demons with "fun". That's not healthy and no one should see that as positive.

I agree; Robert's addictions are clearly attempts to cope with a severe underlying depression. Just look at when he says this:

"I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it..."

If someone describes himself as feeling dead, then there is no way he is happy with the way his life turned out.

[Poorboy78]

aswell as the idea that robert was fighting for Lyanna.

Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and Robert did NOTHING. This fact seams not to be adressed enough. Brandon an his companions did, and Rickard did, but not Bob.

Robert fought a rebelion against a family who asked his head for no reason at all. It was either him or them. A rebelion for his own life, and Neds.

He was fighting for Lyanna because he was no where near as hot tempered as Brandon. See folks that smart thinking on Robert part! Brandon is family, he could demand Lyanna back, Robert was simply a betrothed, his words would carry less weight. See! Smart thinking number two! So then Brandon get kidnapped. I am sure Ned was anxious, Robert, who still think about Lyanna until this day, was now probably worried but never fear, a Lord Paramount, Lord Rickard Stark was on his way down. Things will be resolved smoothly. Robert smart thinking three.

People say he didn't fight for her because he didn't rush out right away, then turn around and call him hot head and stupid. Wanting to get Lyanna back diplomatically and without kicking up a major fuss with the king is stupid? It meant he didn't love her?

So when Rickard and Brandon died, well, that meant there was no other option BUT war, and so off to war they went. All diplomatic means to get his betrothed back have failed, time to get her back by brute force. Other lords might have joined him to take down the king, but he only ever wanted Lyanna.