"Hey Robert, Lyanna didn't want to be with you"

[The Wolves]

^Robert was the one who asked for Lyanna's hand.

[James Arryn]

Robert hates Rhaegar because Lyanna died. He knows nothing else about this. No baby, no promise, nothing. Just that he took her and that the girl ended dead. Add that targs killed his best friends father, and brother, and that lot of men died because of rhaegars actions

And I insist. Bob did nothing until the Targaryens asked for his head. Lyanna was kiddnaped but he didnt move a finger against the Targs, even being quicktempered as we know.

He had no choice other than rebel.

Theres nothing that indicates a hate prior Aerys asking for his head. Which seams reason enough to hate them. After that killing Lyanna just made things worst. Theres nothing irrational about his hate.

Robert hated rhaegar before he knew Lyanna died.

There's no point in insisting something I am not denying. You are the one drawing some connection between Robert's hatred and some kind of blame assessment for starting the war. Here, read this:

1) Robert hated Rhaegar

2) Robert did not start the war, and his hatred was immaterial to the war's beginning.

You're not even tilting at windmills, you're aiming at ones made of straw you planted.

[James Arryn]

The World Book says he laughed, but his friends said he was angry about it. I almost wonder though if this doesn't have to do with Robert's competing in the melee?

We know that Robert competed in the melee at Harrenhal, and while it's not explicitly said, Ned implies that Robert likely won it

I'm assuming that Robert probably also wore Lyanna's favour during the melee as that was the thing to do, and that if he won the melee, he likely made some grand show of showing off Lyanna as his queen of love and beauty. There doesn't seem to be a queen of love and beauty laurel in the melee, or at least we haven't heard of a similar idea, but still, I could see Robert publicly thanking Lyanna for her favour after he won and dedicating the victory to her.

So Robert's all happy, he's won the melee, he publicly proclaimed his love for Lyanna even though everyone knows that they're betrothed... and then Rhaegar names her HIS queen of love and beauty, and after having won the more prestigious tournament.

In which case I could see Robert laughing and being all "Now, now Rhaegar, yes my betrothed is hot, but you better not get any ideas" and inside he's really just emphasizing the last part. He'd already worn her favour and won a tourney for her, and then his cousin one ups him? Who wouldn't be mad in this scenario? He's mad because Rhaegar is crowning Lyanna and that implies courtship when he's the one betrothed to her, but he's also mad because Rhaegar one upped him.

Now of course most of that scenario relies of "head canon" as most isn't stated (Robert wearing Lyanna's favour, Robert winning the melee, Robert thanking Lyanna publicly after his win for her favour, etc). But I don't think any of it is impossible and is rather likely.

I'm not sure where this idea of Rhaegar being popular comes from

Rhaegar didn't like other people his age, and Aerys' knights didn't like him. The popularity that so many prescribe to Rhaegar comes from the smallfolk liking him when he competed in tourneys

Rhaegar's popularity, if it ever existed, was a superficial popularity. People liked him because he was talented and beautiful to look at. They didn't like him because of his actual character and personality. The people who actually interacted with him and knew his character give no hint that he was popular nor ever describe him in a way that indicates this or that he made lots of friends, and we see that Rhaegar didn't go out of his way to make friends.

So Rhaegar wasn't popular. What Rhaegar was, was popular.

I'm not sure why you are trying to redefine popularity as either substantively connected to inner character or false; Rhaegar was popular because he was the most liked. Getting into why he was liked it just an excercise in irrelevant subjective personal priorities.

If I say something is illegal, I am not commenting on the moral value the law is premised on. If I say someone is tall I am not making an evaluation on nature vs. nurture. If I say someone is popular, I am not commenting on why he is popular or why people really truly ought to be popular if the world were a better place. You are the one making that kind of value judgment by trying to redefine it.

Popularity IS superficial. That doesn't mean it's right or wrong.

[Rhaegarslance]

^Robert was the one who asked for Lyanna's hand.

He did? Do you have the quote for that? All I've found is that Rickard promised her to Robert, not that Robert asked

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

[The Wolves]

He did? Do you have the quote for that? All I've found is that Rickard promised her to Robert, not that Robert asked

I don't have the direct quote but when the app was done the person who does it was said to have sat down with GRRM and GRRM told them that it was Robert who asked for Lyanna's hand.

And the quote about "promised her hand" is just a way of saying that Rickard agreed to the marriage.

[Rhaegarslance]

I'm not sure why you are trying to redefine popularity as either substantively connected to inner character or false; Rhaegar was popular because he was the most liked. Getting into why he was liked it just an excercise in irrelevant subjective personal priorities.

If I say something is illegal, I am not commenting on the moral value the law is premised on. If I say someone is tall I am not making an evaluation on nature vs. nurture. If I say someone is popular, I am not commenting on why he is popular or why people really truly ought to be popular if the world were a better place. You are the one making that kind of value judgment by trying to redefine it.

Popularity IS superficial. That doesn't mean it's right or wrong.

You were using it in a way that implied that he was popular because people actually liked him for who he was. I'm just pointing out that that's not true in the context of Rhaegar. A lot of the people who knew Rhaegar didn't like him, nor did Rhaegar make efforts to be liked. The people who cheered for him at Lannisport didn't know him, they just knew that he was the prince and was entering the lists for the first time ever. I'll remind you that they also cheered for Tywin and Aerys, men who were both vilified in Westoros. The people weren't cheering because of who the person was, they were cheering for what the person was (prince/lord/king). The prince was therefore popular, Rhaegar was not. There's a difference.

So i'm agreeing that Rhaegar was popular, I'm just pointing out that that doesn't mean that he necessarily was actually liked as a person. What he was, was popular. Not who he was.

[James Arryn]

You were using it in a way that implied that he was popular because people actually liked him for who he was.

I was?

No, I think I was using it in a way that implied that people liked him, and therefore the odds are that X would like him. I said absolutely nothing about 'who he was'.

I'm just pointing out that that's not true in the context of Rhaegar. A lot of the people who knew Rhaegar didn't like him, nor did Rhaegar make efforts to be liked.

This is entirely beside the point, but your argument here is false. We know of no one who knew him and didn't like him. You are assuming that

A) his being joked about as non-martial means being disliked.

B) that A didn't change when he became martial.

I see no basis for either assumption. Everyone who goes on record liked/admired him. Everyone who discusses how he was viewed reflects on his popularity. His father was even threatened by it.

As far as what effort Rhaegar made, we are getting into the unknowable. He excelled at everything; we don't know why. Many people loved his singing...we don't know if that motivated his doing so. You are building a house of straw IMO.

The people who cheered for him at Lannisport didn't know him, they just knew that he was the prince and was entering the lists for the first time ever.

How do you possibly know this? Again, irrelevant, but also supposition stated as fact.

I'll remind you that they also cheered for Tywin and Aerys, men who were both vilified in Westoros.

Typing WAS popular in the Westerlands. I don't know anyone who argues otherwise. Are you?

All we know about Aerys was he was cheered substantially less than the other 2.

The people weren't cheering because of who the person was, they were cheering for what the person was (prince/lord/king). The prince was therefore popular, Rhaegar was not. There's a difference.

You seem really caught up in this existential sideline. 'Who the person was' is about as arbitrary a designation as I can imagine. But the difference you are drawing is a complete fabrication, both in substance and premise.

In substance there is nothing in the text about automatic applause due to station. In premise if station dictated applause the order would go 1) King 2) Prince 3) Hand.

It didn't. Ergo it is about more than station.

So i'm agreeing that Rhaegar was popular, I'm just pointing out that that doesn't mean that he necessarily was actually liked as a person. What he was, was popular. Not who he was.

The first part is the entire discussion. The rest is about whether my favourite colour is better than yours.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's kinda hard to discuss when people is so biased to the point of contradict the text or ignore what it says just because it contradicts what they want to believe. Rhaegar was probably wrong but he wasn't Satan. Nor a rapist. Whether people like Robert better than him (for whatever reasons) is not relevant.

[Rhaegarslance]

It's kinda hard to discuss when people is so biased to the point of contradict the text or ignore what it says just because it contradicts what they want to believe. Rhaegar was probably wrong but he wasn't Satan. Nor a rapist. Whether people like Robert better than him (for whatever reasons) is not relevant.

Believing that Rhaegar wasn't a rapist does require you to contradict and ignore the text for the sake of what you want to believe though...? Canonically speaking, Rhaegar is a rapist.

Now whether you choose to believe what the book says or not is up to you about this subject, but choosing to ignore the fact that the books name Rhaegar a rapist requires you to do the very thing that you are saying is making it hard to discuss a topic with another poster: contradict the text for the sake of what you believe. Which is rather hypocritical as you yourself are contradicting the text for the sake of what you believe.

[Geddus]

Ned is constantly correcting Robert about Lyanna's character.

Once = constantly?

[Keycube]

As an aside, I would love to do a poll of the "backstory" fans and see how people feel about Rhaegar, by gender. I confess to not being NEARLY as hardcore as most on this board, but after a few seasons of GoT, reading AGoT, and looking at wiki stuff, I fell in love with Rhaegar. Now, I'm a male, and admit to being a pie-in-the-sky romantic with many things, and I think sometimes my perspective on the world belies my, ahem, "manliness" (I grew up with two sisters and a Dad that wasn't around much, for some context :) )

Anyway, as regards this thread, I wonder if Robert is the typical male's "everyman", and Rhaegar the untrustworthy "artsy, flowery" sort; and to women, Robert as "uncouth and selfish", while Rhaegar the Prince Charming "sacrifice everything for his Love" type.

It's funny, there's not a doubt in my mind that Rhaegar will be exposed to be one of the "good guys"; not the least reason of which is that the opposite seems too obvious and doesn't have a truthful "vibe" to me. Yes, that's just a personal thing that's probably way too driven by hope, but at the end of the day that's how all of us are making these sort of character assessments.

[John Doe]

Believing that Rhaegar wasn't a rapist does require you to contradict and ignore the text for the sake of what you want to believe though...? Canonically speaking, Rhaegar is a rapist.

Now whether you choose to believe what the book says or not is up to you about this subject, but choosing to ignore the fact that the books name Rhaegar a rapist requires you to do the very thing that you are saying is making it hard to discuss a topic with another poster: contradict the text for the sake of what you believe. Which is rather hypocritical as you yourself are contradicting the text for the sake of what you believe.

Agreed.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Believing that Rhaegar wasn't a rapist does require you to contradict and ignore the text for the sake of what you want to believe though...? Canonically speaking, Rhaegar is a rapist.

No.

Canonically speaking, nothing says he is. If it was, then all characters would be saying it because some evidence supports this and everybody knows. Like, for example, the size of the Wall. We have Kevan and Cersei believing otherwise. Canon is facts established in the text. Opinions of characters aren't canon.

People who believed Rhaegar was a rapist: Robert Baratheon.

People who believed they ran away together: Kevan (and probably Tywin), Barristan, Cersei.

People who should be mad at Rhaegar but never said anything against him: Doran, Oberyn, Ned Stark.

People want Rhaegar be a rapist, so, they take the possibility of him being one as evidence. As nothing in the text says he's not, then he must be, despite him being a rapist is very unlikely as he's more shaped to be a tragic character who did wrong things. That doesn't make him a sex offender, just a man who take wrong decisions.

Now, personally, I think the big hypocrisy is to say "I'm glad [female character] has some "agency" and was able to beat the system and made her own choices about her sexuality". Many praise Cersei for not bearing Robert's children despite it was her "job" to do it and her reluctance caused a war. Lyanna's role was marrying Robert and she didn't want to. Rhaegar's duty was to do everything his father said, and he always did, except ONE single time. That makes them villains. If anything, that makes them victims, just like any other young noble character of this story. None of them has the freedom to marry someone they like: they HAVE to learn to like the people they marry, both men and women. Did their actions caused despair? Definitely. Does this make them bad people? Not at all.

[Nami]

As an aside, I would love to do a poll of the "backstory" fans and see how people feel about Rhaegar, by gender. I confess to not being NEARLY as hardcore as most on this board, but after a few seasons of GoT, reading AGoT, and looking at wiki stuff, I fell in love with Rhaegar. Now, I'm a male, and admit to being a pie-in-the-sky romantic with many things, and I think sometimes my perspective on the world belies my, ahem, "manliness" (I grew up with two sisters and a Dad that wasn't not around much, for some context :) )

Anyway, as regards this thread, I wonder if Robert is the typical male's "everyman", and Rhaegar the untrustworthy "artsy, flowery" sort; and to women, Robert as "uncouth and selfish", while Rhaegar the Prince Charming "sacrifice everything for his Love" type.

It's funny, there's not a doubt in my mind that Rhaegar will be exposed to be one of the "good guys"; not the least reason of which is that the opposite seems too obvious and doesn't have a truthful "vibe" to me. Yes, that's just a personal thing that's probably way too driven by hope, but at the end of the day that's how all of us are making these sort of character assessments.

In my opinion Rhaegar is the more appealing character of the two.

Robert was a meat head. I guess to some guys is some sort of an inspiration of masculinity or whatever. I don't get it.

Rhaegar was strong, manly, extremelly well-read and good at many other things. I'm sure it would be more fun to have a conversation with Rhaegar than with Robert.

Some seem to have this idea that since Rhaegar wasn't a meat head and loved to sing that he was a effeminate. Which is laughable to me. We know with the illustration in TWOIAF that Rhaegar looked like a man, not a woman in armor.

If anything, a handsome, strong and cultured man is way more sexy than a muscled brute.

[Winter's Knight]

No.

Canonically speaking, nothing says he is. If it was, then all characters would be saying it because some evidence supports this and everybody knows. Like, for example, the size of the Wall. We have Kevan and Cersei believing otherwise. Canon is facts established in the text. Opinions of characters aren't canon.

People who believed Rhaegar was a rapist: Robert Baratheon.

People who believed they ran away together: Kevan (and probably Tywin), Barristan, Cersei.

People who should be mad at Rhaegar but never said anything against him: Doran, Oberyn, Ned Stark.

People want Rhaegar be a rapist, so, they take the possibility of him being one as evidence. As nothing in the text says he's not, then he must be, despite him being a rapist is very unlikely as he's more shaped to be a tragic character who did wrong things. That doesn't make him a sex offender, just a man who take wrong decisions.

Now, personally, I think the big hypocrisy is to say "I'm glad [female character] has some "agency" and was able to beat the system and made her own choices about her sexuality". Many praise Cersei for not bearing Robert's children despite it was her "job" to do it and her reluctance caused a war. Lyanna's role was marrying Robert and she didn't want to. Rhaegar's duty was to do everything his father said, and he always did, except ONE single time. That makes them villains. If anything, that makes them victims, just like any other young noble character of this story. None of them has the freedom to marry someone they like: they HAVE to learn to like the people they marry, both men and women. Did their actions caused despair? Definitely. Does this make them bad people? Not at all.

:cheers:

[thelittledragonthatcould]

People who believed they ran away together: Kevan (and probably Tywin), Barristan, Cersei.

When does Kevan state that he thinks they ran away together?

If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes ... and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

And when does Cersei?

If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons.

Just because loved/lusted after her does not mean she went willingly.

[Poorboy78]

When does Kevan state that he thinks they ran away together?

If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes ... and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

And when does Cersei?

If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons.

Just because loved/lusted after her does not mean she went willingly.

./slow clap.

Bravo Sir, Bravo. Keep in mind that Ned doesn't think much of anything.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Robert was a meat head. I guess to some guys is some sort of an inspiration of masculinity or whatever. I don't get it.

You actually get it: "I guess to some guys is some sort of an inspiration of masculinity or whatever". That's exactly the point.

Robert personifies an illusion of what masculinity or manhood is or should be, and the fun only aspect of it. Had Robert been a modern character, he would be all the time in pubs drinking beer, playing videogames, watching bro movies all day and having one girl after another. He would be Barney Stinson. Yet, while mostly bros love him (and I love NPH) and even some feminists give him some slack, the character is awfully sexist. But he's charismatic and fun so, it's ok.

Here is when GRRM adds the reality factor. Robert does all those things all the time, but he's miserable. He hates his life, he hates his role as a King and he hates he can't have the one women she loved. Compared to him, many other male characters had it better: Ned and Cat are happy, Oberyn and Ellaria are happy. Tywin and Joanna had some time to be happy. And of course, Rhaegar and Lyanna were briefly happy.

Here is when the whole "bro" things kicks in. A lot of men (and some women) would say "hell, yeah, leave him alone, he's not hurting anyone!". In his case, he's hurting a lot of people, including himself. He doesnt' do all of those things because he's an independent man who has chosen to have that lifestyle. He does it because he hates his life and he doesn't want to think about it. That's not a healthy behaviour. Mostly people forgets that having sex is not the same as being promiscuous. Being promiscuous is a compulsive response to what is mostly of the times a more serious problem. Yet, that's a lifestyle many people would like to have. That's why Charlie Sheen still has fans.

We are meant to understand Robert and his suffering. Poor King Robert is a mess of a person because he lost someone he loved. Also did Loras and his reaction was not as immature :dunno:

[Poorboy78]

Rhaegar and Lyanna were briefly happy.

Hold up their hoss, the verdict is still out on that one. The other happy people I agree with though. I am also pretty sure Rhaegar was pretty happy with Aegon base on DAny vision. Let try to keep the head cannon to a minimum shall we?

[John Doe]

You actually get it: "I guess to some guys is some sort of an inspiration of masculinity or whatever". That's exactly the point.

Haha no. At least that's not the reason I like him.

But now that we are at it, people, especially women probably like Rhaegar because he's playing harp and has pretty hair.