JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Hold up their hoss, the verdict is still out on that one. The other happy people I agree with though. I am also pretty sure Rhaegar was pretty happy with Aegon base on Dany vision. Let try to keep the head cannon to a minimum shall we? Sure. Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegarslance Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 You actually get it: "I guess to some guys is some sort of an inspiration of masculinity or whatever". That's exactly the point.Robert personifies an illusion of what masculinity or manhood is or should be, and the fun only aspect of it. Had Robert been a modern character, he would be all the time in pubs drinking beer, playing videogames, watching bro movies all day and having one girl after another. He would be Barney Stinson. Yet, while mostly bros love him (and I love NPH) and even some feminists give him some slack, the character is awfully sexist. But he's charismatic and fun so, it's ok.Here is when GRRM adds the reality factor. Robert does all those things all the time, but he's miserable. He hates his life, he hates his role as a King and he hates he can't have the one women she loved. Compared to him, many other male characters had it better: Ned and Cat are happy, Oberyn and Ellaria are happy. Tywin and Joanna had some time to be happy. And of course, Rhaegar and Lyanna were briefly happy.Here is when the whole "bro" things kicks in. A lot of men (and some women) would say "hell, yeah, leave him alone, he's not hurting anyone!". In his case, he's hurting a lot of people, including himself. He doesnt' do all of those things because he's an independent man who has chosen to have that lifestyle. He does it because he hates his life and he doesn't want to think about it. That's not a healthy behaviour. Mostly people forgets that having sex is not the same as being promiscuous. Being promiscuous is a compulsive response to what is mostly of the times a more serious problem. Yet, that's a lifestyle many people would like to have. That's why Charlie Sheen still has fans.We are meant to understand Robert and his suffering. Poor King Robert is a mess of a person because he lost someone he loved. Also did Loras and his reaction was not as immature :dunno:What? Robert doesn't want to be king, and would love to just abdicate the throne and live his life fighting and whoring. He tells us this himself. The reason why he doesn't, as he also tells us this himself, is because he knows that if he does Cersei would rule the country through Joffrey.To his dying day Robert ran the country to ensure that Cersei wouldn't. He even tried to ensure that after his death that she wouldn't by making sure that Ned would be the regent instead. Robert hated being king, but he knew that it was better him than Cersei and Joffrey.Robert wasn't the best, but he gave the realms 15 years of peace while Cersei and Joffrey managed to immediately throw the realm into war. If Robert had gone off to live his life as he wanted you can damn well bet that Westoros would have been a far worse place than it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Well, Rhaegar ran off as he wanted an we know how that turned out. It's good that Robert was more responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Robert wasn't the best, but he gave the realms 15 years of peace while Cersei and Joffrey managed to immediately throw the realm into war. If Robert had gone off to live his life as he wanted you can damn well bet that Westoros would have been a far worse place than it was. I think you're the one who hasn't read the books. First, you're not even contradicting what I'm saying. Yes, Robert hated his life. Many people also hate their works. Yet, they do it. Robert, what exactly what he did? What I'm quoting you is a misconception. Robert gave the realm peace? What exactly did he do? What new laws he proclaimed? What changes he made to assure the realm wouldn't have a third Aerys? another rebellion? Another tyrant? Robert Baratheon was so overwhelmed by his own problems that he let other men to rule instead, and he barely cared if they were honest or not. These men ended up killing each other and bankrupted the realm, while his heir was been raised to be in fact Aerys III, which caused a second rebellion after he simply decided to chop one High Lord's head. We're supposed to feel bad for Robert because he was miserable, while we're also supposed to see Rhaegar as the one rapist violent emo villain because his actions leaded to a war? How is that work again? Oh, yeah... because Rhaegar was too pretty and too nice and all girls wanted him, while Robert, a sexist pig, was deep deep deep deep deep deep deep inside a good chap and Lyanna was an idiot for rejecting him. Robert's grief because he couldn't have the girl he wanted (but who apparently didn't want him back) is more tragic than a Prince who tried and failed. That's how it works :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Darry Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 If Ned knew that Lyanna was not raped and kidnapped, why did he keep quiet? it is one think to tell evrebody that R+L=J or "Hey Robert, Lyanna didn't want to be with you” but he could at least clarify Lyanna’s disappearance. this doesn’t mean he should told the whole ‘she went wilingly and they got married story’ but he could at least said that Lyanna was not raped. it would be better for his sister memory, it wouldn’t harm anyone, it would be the truth, it would even keep Jon’s perantage in a bigger dark. Which is why i think that Ned belived he raped her. He forbid evreybody to talk about Ashara, but was ok with evrebody talking that his sister was raped? that only makes sense if she was raped. 'Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen.' Eddard VII Uncomfortably... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Oh, yeah... because Rhaegar was too pretty and too nice and all girls wanted him, while Robert, a sexist pig, It is the middle ages. How is Rheager any less sexist than Robert? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 It is the middle ages. How is Rheager any less sexist than Robert? Rhaegar abandoned his wife and children to hook up wife a fourteen year old girl. Obvisiously e was a paragon of virtue compared to Robert who didn't love his wife who threatened to kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Well, you know is time to leave a thread when people simply quote phrases without context and keep insisting on seeing what they want to see rather than have some objective analysis. Yes, Rhaegar was a rapist because he was pretty. Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Well, you know is time to leave a thread when people simply quote phrases without context and keep insisting on seeing what they want to see rather than have some objective analysis. Agreed. Some people even say Eddard spoke fondly of Rhaegar, funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nami Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 Rhaegar abandoned his wife and children to hook up wife a fourteen year old girl. Obvisiously e was a paragon of virtue compared to Robert who didn't love his wife who threatened to kill him. No one ever said Rhaegar was a paragon of virtue. Some people just don't see things so black and white (this is ASoIaF for god's sake). To me it's pretty clear he's a grey character. Some like to think he's side to side with Ramsey. To each his own, I guess. I don't expect everyone to consider all sides of a layered character. Robert is very easy to understand and in your face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poorboy78 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 . Robert gave the realm peace? What exactly did he do? What new laws he proclaimed? What changes he made to assure the realm wouldn't have a third Aerys? another rebellion? Another tyrant? And what exactly did Rhaegar do to ensure the realm peace? What changes did he make? WHat efforts? The question that you ask for in details does not exist because GRRM wrote a story, this is not a history where every details have been recorded to the annuls of history. So what do we have? 15 years of peace under robert vs open rebellion and war with Rhaegar and Aerys. It's not hard to see who's the better king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Some people just don't see things so black and white (this is ASoIaF for god's sake). Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I'm still glad Robert never "got" Lyanna she did not deserve that hell. Robert and Cersei ended up with exactly who they deserved to end up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Are you here to hate on everyone who is not a Stark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I'm still glad Robert never "got" Lyanna she did not deserve that hell. Are you saying she deserved death in childbirth after either being kidnapped and raped or running off and indirectly causing the deaths of her father and brother? Robert and Cersei's ennui by comparison seems a much more pleasant fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegarslance Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I'm still glad Robert never "got" Lyanna she did not deserve that hell.Robert and Cersei ended up with exactly who they deserved to end up with. You mean the Robert who tried to make his marriage work and include Cersei in his life? As she made her way through the ragged throng, past their cookfires, wagons, and crude shelters, the queen found herself remembering another crowd that had once gathered on this plaza. The day she wed Robert Baratheon, thousands had turned out to cheer for them. All the women wore their best, and half the men had children on their shoulders. When she had emerged from inside the sept, hand in hand with the young king, the crowd sent up a roar so loud it could be heard in Lannisport. “They like you well, my lady,” Robert whispered in her ear. “See, every face is smiling.” For that one short moment she had been happy in her marriage... until she chanced to glance at Jaime. No, she remembered thinking, not every face, my lord. “My late husband loved the forest too.” In the early years of their marriage, Robert was forever imploring her to hunt with him, but Cersei had always begged off. His hunting trips allowed her time with Jaime. Golden days and silver nights. It was a dangerous dance that they had danced, to be sure. Eyes and ears were everywhere within the Red Keep, and one could never be certain when Robert would return. Somehow the peril had only served to make their times together that much more thrilling. “Still, beauty can sometimes mask deadly danger,” she warned the little queen. “Robert lost his life in the woods.” Robert's attempts at his marriage with Cersei went south when she kept spiting him and wouldn't reciprocate trying to make their marriage work like he was. He tried to make it work and then gave up when she wouldn't let him. The disaster that was Robert and Cersei's marriage was entirely Cersei's fault. Robert did initially try to make it work. And as thelittledragonthatcould already pointed out, Lyanna got far worse by not being with Robert. She died, her brother died, her father died, never got to raise her child if R+L=J, her lover died if she went willingly with Rhaegar, and thousands of others died because Lyanna and Robert weren't together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Robert Baratheon was so overwhelmed by his own problems that he let other men to rule instead, and he barely cared if they were honest or not. These men ended up killing each other and bankrupted the realm, while his heir was been raised to be in fact Aerys III, which caused a second rebellion after he simply decided to chop one High Lord's head. We're supposed to feel bad for Robert because he was miserable, while we're also supposed to see Rhaegar as the one rapist violent emo villain because his actions leaded to a war? How is that work again? Oh, yeah... because Rhaegar was too pretty and too nice and all girls wanted him, while Robert, a sexist pig, was deep deep deep deep deep deep deep inside a good chap and Lyanna was an idiot for rejecting him. Robert's grief because he couldn't have the girl he wanted (but who apparently didn't want him back) is more tragic than a Prince who tried and failed. That's how it works :dunno: Also, this is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimJames Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 If Ned knew that Lyanna was not raped and kidnapped, why did he keep quiet? it is one think to tell evrebody that R+L=J or "Hey Robert, Lyanna didn't want to be with you” but he could at least clarify Lyanna’s disappearance. this doesn’t mean he should told the whole ‘she went wilingly and they got married story’ but he could at least said that Lyanna was not raped. it would be better for his sister memory, it wouldn’t harm anyone, it would be the truth, it would even keep Jon’s perantage in a bigger dark. Which is why i think that Ned belived he raped her. He forbid evreybody to talk about Ashara, but was ok with evrebody talking that his sister was raped? that only makes sense if she was raped. Thank you. I personally believe Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna so as to fulfill a crackpot prophecy, but even if they did run away together (they didn't) there is no reason to exclude the possibility of Eddard and Brandon mistakenly thinking she was raped. Eddard being just as in the dark as Robert makes more sense than him knowing that his sister is a cold hearted traitor and not telling anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 If he knew she had not been raped, he would probably have thought about it when Robert mentioned it. It's the first thing that comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I think you're the one who hasn't read the books. First, you're not even contradicting what I'm saying. Yes, Robert hated his life. Many people also hate their works. Yet, they do it. Robert, what exactly what he did?What I'm quoting you is a misconception. Robert gave the realm peace? What exactly did he do? What new laws he proclaimed? What changes he made to assure the realm wouldn't have a third Aerys? another rebellion? Another tyrant? Roberts reign did have some smart moves that made a rebelion a little bit harder. Of course how much of him are in those, and how much of Arryn is a matter of opinion. He is the first King in a lot of time to have a big, strong royal fleet under his disposal, which makes the IT stronger than before, and can explain some of the big debts. Just see how Cersei has to cut IB payments to build a fraction of what robert had. Stronger against his vassals, and stronger against essos. Granting his brothers two sits with men of their own also strengthed Baratheons possition as a whole. Im going a little far with this, but I even think Neds worries of Lannisters taking over is more about his Lannister hate that whats actually happening. Take a look at the persons which Bob gives power in KL. In the small counsil Pycelle is inherited so doesnt count, Baelish and Varys dont play for the Lannisters Selmy is a Storm Lander, Renly is his brother and so Stannis. In fact with Stannis, Renly and hostiles hands as Ned or Arryn, the Lannisters had little influence in the day to day ruling of the Kingdom The same can be said of his seven. 2 stormlanders, 1 from the vale, 1 from crown lands, 1 from the Vale and 1 from te Reach, You might play the loan card, but Robert asked the same to the Tyrells, the faith and the IB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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