Jump to content

Hugo Drama III: Will "the ilk" come to Spokane?


Ser Scot A Ellison

Recommended Posts

Do you have a website address where Torgenson actually stated that while he solicited suggestions from other authors but then disregarded the suggestions and drew the slate based solely on what he liked? or is this your or someone elses supposition?

As others have pointed out, it's a description of what actually happened. Hardly any of the solicited suggestions made it onto the slate.

Moreover, my querry was not based on how the Puppy 3 Slate was drawn but on the willingness of GRRM to work with them in the future, which I think would be a great development in that it would take the debate from a left-right fight to one in which authors of both political persuasions worked together to broaden the group of people nominated for awards based on merit.It would also marginalize even more VOX DAY which I would think is something your side would be in favor of.

This presupposes that GRRM and others have not, in fact, been trying to broaden that group for many years now.

The idea that 'broadening' the nominees is something that the Puppies are the first or only people to do, or that they in some sense own that process, is so ludicrous as to be almost a joke. One of the main complaints of the Puppies is about the nominees being too diverse. And let's be clear what we mean when we say 'diverse'. It doesn't just mean that an author is from an under-represented part of the fan community in terms of gender, ethnicity, etc. It also means that the stories they're telling are diverse: that they are not the same old, same old. They feature diverse characters, unusual settings, different types of story and different types of storytelling.

The Puppies are explicitly about limiting many of those forms of diversity, which they seem to regard as inherently without merit. They want to limit the kinds of story that win the Hugo award, to the type of story that (they think) used to or should win. They want their sci-fi and their sci-fi community to be narrow in scope, not broad.

Meanwhile authors like GRRM have been lending their support to new and aspiring authors, recommending books with fresh perspectives and fresh ideas, looking to welcome people into the WSFS community and make it more inclusive for decades before the Puppies were even thought of.

So don't tell me that working with the Puppies is about improving diversity. It's not. And don't talk about how it would marginalise Vox Day, who effectively took over the Puppies phenomenon. Yes, it would be a good thing if the Puppies marginalised him. That's their job, not GRRM's, not mine. The Puppies invited him in (when it seemed he would be useful to them, rather than the other way around). They're the ones who need to tell him to leave.

if the Puppies really want a Hugo awards that is about a broad group of authors based on merit, they should just participate in the awards in the same spirit as everyone else. No slates, no logos, no causes, no grievances, just participation. If they'd done that, we would not be here talking about this now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who the hell is Requires Hate ?

Only read some stuff by Requires Hate, but it was apparently quite a controversy and some trolling and unpleasantness, see link.

Some reviews were kinda fun, most were mean and I can't recall her saying anything positive about anything. I had no idea she threatened people and behaved like she did, but then I had extremely little exposure to "requires hate" since internet meanies generally aren't much fun.

EDIT: Corrected link

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only read some stuff by Requires Hate, but it was apparently quite a controversy and some trolling and unpleasantness, see link.

Some reviews were kinda fun, most were mean and I can't recall her saying anything positive about anything. I had no idea she threatened people and behaved like she did, but then I had extremely little exposure to "requires hate" since internet meanies generally aren't much fun.

Also this thread from before.

somebody go warn JackBauer24 ; if he continues down the path he is on, the future is dark for him :P

Also, when those guys on net comments say they earn money from home working on Internet, is this the kind of "work" they are talking about ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize for coming on so strong, but as you might gather from my post and reaction in the Hispanic Communities questioning whether one is Hispanic based on one's skin color can be a touchy issue as can the use of the term "people of color" especially when used by people outside our "communities".

It's fine, I understand. I apologize, was just curious. Thank you to Ormond as well for the explanation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wouldn't it be a good idea for a year round "Hugo Thread" on this forum, that focuses on an all inclusive recommendation of sci-fi/fantasy stories? Seems like it should have been the first step for people if they really cared much. All it has encouraged up to now is a nice distribution of rhetoric.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

fairly certain that it's a thread every year. see e.g. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100675-hugo-nominees-for-2014-shortlist-post-156-on-page-8/

that said, it's not the same over here in jolly SJWland as it is in NRx concentration camps. we do not for example goosestep in well-ordered columns but rather do our own respective things as guided by some common principles, yaknow? so, not surprising that there's no organized slates or anything like one sees in the SP/RP efforts (other than a tendency to caution against splitting the vote on multiple grrm items, maybe).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crowjack,

Butcher doesn't comment on politics. That his policy and the policy on the Butcher forum I also post on. That's his call and I will not condemn the man for being consistent.

Not dreaming to condemn him...I just think he has to be feeling really uncomfortable with the whole process

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apparently SP/RP was really all about "Ethics in Literary Journalism":

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/04/literary-journalism.html

From Vox Day's blog:

Tom Knighton goes into more detail on this: "When we talk about why we despise CHORFs so much, it’s because of crap like this. Carnall isn’t trying to just keep Sad Puppies nominees from getting awards — which has its own brand of pathetic — instead, she’s actively working to destroy people’s livelihoods. Keeping a Hugo out of their hands isn’t enough for her. No, she wants to destroy their careers. Why? *GASP* Because they disagree with her!!! We now see the face of evil, and believe it or not, it’s not Vox Day. Shocking, I know."

Gamergate. God, we missed you so much. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only read some stuff by Requires Hate, but it was apparently quite a controversy and some trolling and unpleasantness, see link.

Some reviews were kinda fun, most were mean and I can't recall her saying anything positive about anything. I had no idea she threatened people and behaved like she did, but then I had extremely little exposure to "requires hate" since internet meanies generally aren't much fun.

Also this thread from before.

This is a small part of a story identfying Requires Hate and what she has done written by Laura J Mixon (Mixon has been nominated for a Hugo for her story and GRRM has wholeheartedly endorsed the nomination)"

"Benjanun Sriduangkaew has established herself over the past two years as a well-liked and talented newer writer. As a lesbian Thai woman, she identifies as a member of a highly marginalized community, and there has been quite a bit of excitement in progressive circles around her rise in popularity as a short story writer. She has been publishing SFF since 2012 and is a John W. Campbell nominee for 2014." http://laurajmixon.com/2014/11/a-report-on-damage-done-by-one-individual-under-several-names/

"BS/RH’s online attacks against others in the SFF community extend far beyond simply a few youthful indiscretions in her past, foul language, or having posted harsh reviews of some people’s books. Her assaults, using multiple identities, are repeated, vicious, and energetic. They have spilled out across the years, well beyond the edges of fannish and writing communities online. BS/RH’s attacks have destroyed communities and harmed careers and lives in the real world.

  • She has been involved in efforts to suppress the publication of fiction and reviews for those works that in her sole opinion should not be published.

She and her associates have pressured con-runners to disinvite speakersfrom panels and readings, constraining their ability to do business.

She routinely accuses people of doing the very harm to her that she is in fact doing to them—of stalking, threatening, and harassing—when they have done nothing except try to get as far away from her as they can.

At least one of her targets was goaded into a suicide attempt.

She has issued extremely explicit death, rape, and maiming threats against a wide variety of people across the color, gender, sexual-orientation, and dis/ability spectrum.

She and her supporters argue that she punches up, but the truth is that she punches in all directions. The bulk of her targets—despite her progressively-slanted rhetoric—have been women, people of color, and other marginalized or vulnerable people.

She has single-handedly destroyed several online SFF, fanfic, and videogaming communities with her negative, hostile comments and attacks.

After an attack, she deletes her most inflammatory posts and accounts and departs, leaving her targets reeling and others who come later scratching their heads, unable to find evidence and wondering what all the fuss was about.

She has stalked SFF fans online for months and years, simply for posting that they liked an author’s book that she did not, or for speaking up against her when she called their favorite author (often a POC) epithets like “stupid fuck,” and calling them “morons” for liking that author.

She has chased down positive reviews of authors’ works, to appear there and frighten reviewers and fans away from promoting the writers’ works,interfering with their ability to get publicity for their publications. Of the most extreme cases, lasting at least a year, two were launched againstwomen writers of color.

Her attacks have not diminished over time; they have simply become more skilled and difficult to deflect. As recently as three weeks ago as I write this,she was lying to her supporters to manipulate them into attacking one of her latest victims.

She excels at shifting her tone and her strategy, seeming friendly and helpful one moment and vicious and harsh the next. She has mastered the crafting and dissemination of false narratives that seem persuasive to observers who are not familiar with the harm she has done in the past.

In light of the harm she has done, her apologies do not even come close to addressing the damage she has done, much less undoing it.

I know the above facts to be true either because I directly witnessed it myself; researched the evidence still available from online forums; or received information from people who have been harmed by her, who have entrusted me with evidence (screencaps, copies of incriminating emails, web archives, and witness accounts) of the actions I describe above.

Some reading this will note that few people have come forward with their stories as a result of the recent dust-up, and most of those who have spoken out have done so anonymously.

They have not come forward because they are afraid.

They are afraid they will not be believed. They are afraid that their experiences will be discounted or minimized. That people will make excuses for her, or believe her when she tells the world that they are the villains and she is the victim. Their run-ins with her were in many cases among the worst experiences in their lives. When they resurface on the web, she often finds them again and re-launches her vitriolic attacks.

If one person had told me these stories, or two, I might be skeptical, and wonder what their role in the blow-up had been. But I’ve heard from or discovered the internet traces of far more than two.

Some of BS/RH’s targets responded with anger, others with fear. Some managed to shrug it all off and move on with their lives. A few have apparently tried trolling and stalking her back. Her targets’ lives were altered, regardless, and not for the better." http://laurajmixon.com/2014/11/a-report-on-damage-done-by-one-individual-under-several-names/

The part that I find the strangest is that Requires Hate turned out to be a "Progressive" Thai Lesbian, but "(t)he bulk of her targets—despite her progressively-slanted rhetoric—have been women, people of color, and other marginalized or vulnerable people.

She is thus, at least in my opinion, the mirror image of Vox Day, with the added wrinkle that her mopst loathsome and vicious attacks were on those that one would presume would be the people that she should of been encouraging not attacking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Errrh yes, I'm not sure you'll find a lot of "Requires Hate" fans or sockpuppets here so not sure what the point is about posting that stuff? Even I knew about that stuff and I didn't even read the original thread. If it's reached even me, then it's pretty fair to say "Requires Hate" is more known for being a troll than for anything useful.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

because he doesn't get into Politics even more consistent and I like consistency

but don't you think, scot, that unerring consistency is itself a political statement to the extent that it plainly controverts the preferences of the randomists and the chaosists and others adherent to inconsistency, and, furthermore, that this dispute with their respective positions is not silent but is rather in itself a testimonial act, which, accordingly, produces thereby a manifest inconsistency with his stated position that he does not speak on politics?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Errrh yes, I'm not sure you'll find a lot of "Requires Hate" fans or sockpuppets here so not sure what the point is about posting that stuff? Even I knew about that stuff and I didn't even read the original thread. If it's reached even me, then it's pretty fair to say "Requires Hate" is more known for being a troll than for anything useful.

There were quite a few ROH supporters here. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but don't you think, scot, that unerring consistency is itself a political statement to the extent that it plainly controverts the preferences of the randomists and the chaosists and others adherent to inconsistency, and, furthermore, that this dispute with their respective positions is not silent but is rather in itself a testimonial act, which, accordingly, produces thereby a manifest inconsistency with his stated position that he does not speak on politics?

Except that to the extent that his silence is itself a political statement it is the exception that proves the general rule. In other words his inconsistency in making a political point by not speaking, only confirms his preference for not announciating a political preference and is therefore consistent with both Hegelian and dialectical logic to the extent, and only to the extent, that his choice to not speak was conscience and not a subliminal or more precisely not a reflection of a unconscious or sub -concious auto response.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sologdin,

but don't you think, scot, that unerring consistency is itself a political statement to the extent that it plainly controverts the preferences of the randomists and the chaosists and others adherent to inconsistency, and, furthermore, that this dispute with their respective positions is not silent but is rather in itself a testimonial act, which, accordingly, produces thereby a manifest inconsistency with his stated position that he does not speak on politics?

I love you man. No, silence is simply silence. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...