Sansa is the "younger more beautiful queen"

[lojzelote]

Sophie has made many puzzling remarks however, saying she wants to create her own house on 2 separate occasions is a very specific thing to say. It's not shown in the books or the show so it had to come from somewhere. It could be nothing but I have wondered what would prompt such a statement.

As to being very different in the books, hardly. While we have access to Sansa's thoughts, her actions very much show that she believes it is extremely dangerous to be a Stark right now and has most definitely distanced herself from the family name and image. She is Alayne Stone and is working on being bastard brave and bold, not being an honorable Stark. That will probably change but for now, it's her smartest way to act.

Honestly, I think that Sophie wants people to root for her character, so she'd blabber anything to make Sansa look more badass.

I don't think that Sansa in the books wants to create her own House. She wants to reclaim Winterfell, but I don't expect her to challenge her brothers once she learns of their survival. Even if we would assume that the Iron Throne won't exist anymore or at least that the North gains lasting independence, then she would still have to wrestle the royal title from her brothers, the Starks of Winterfell, for herself and her new House. (How would she found that House anyway? She would claim the Boltons' holdings? That would be kinda fitting if she meant to overthrow House Stark. ;) )

[Wouter]

What I meant with Hizdahr is that nobody connects him to Westeros, although in theory he truly should be considered a possible king of Westeros, if you think of Dany as a pretender. The same would be true of Sansa in a way, imho. I'd be very surprised if she returned to him to be his queen consort. Even if they're still married, I don't think that her theoretical title as his queen would be relevant to anybody.

Yes, I think it's possible that Tyrion is Dany's bastard half-brother, but I find it more likely he will turn against her at some point, either due to his ambition or because she will spurn him as her consort or something similar.

I don't think that Connigton is going to be the Great Stone Beast. His story appears to be tied to Aegon, the Mummer's Dragon. It would be repetitive, imho. Also, there's a good chance that Tyrion was infected during the encounter with the stone men. It may not show yet, but as Haldon said, he's not safe for the rest of his life now.

We'll see. :dunno:

Hizdahr is not considered king of westeros (allthough he technically is; you're right to point this out, I had never considered this) in the books because he is not in Westeros and doesn't have the intention/ambition to ever go there. By marrying him, Dany has more or less given up on Westeros in favour of ruling Meereen. But since the marriage will not hold, that's not a big issue in the longer term. If Hizdahr would, by some miracle, accompany Dany into Westeros he would be seen as "prince-consort" or "king" soon enough.

It's possible there will be tensions between Tyrion and Dany, but I suspect Jaime is the likely point of contention. When push comes to shove, I think Tyrion will no longer be angry with Jaime and he may try to protect him from Dany's wrath. A potential "treason for love", which could damage or outright end the Tyrion/Dany alliance.Then again, an alliance against the Others could mend that fence again.

Tyrion may have been infected, but Connington certainly was and he is hiding it. That Connington got it and Tyrion (IMO, likely) not may have been the point of that scene with the Stone Men.

[chrisdaw]

I doubt Cersei would have any aspirations left for power after "Dany is through". I don't see the present regime surviving that, except holed up in Casterly Rock.

Why would Cersei not still lust for power after Dany gets Rhaenyra'd? That's the predominant Cersei character trait, an insatiable desire for power.

This is all much simpler than people are making it out to be. Aegon takes the IT, Dany kills Aegon, Dany takes the IT, Dany gets ousted by the people, Cersei thinks she's back in business by way of there being no-one else to crown but whichever remains of her children, enter TYMBQ, the Kingmaker and Hugor Hill to save the shattered realm from more Cersei.

[Wouter]

Why would Cersei not still lust for power after Dany gets Rhaenyra'd? That's the predominant Cersei character trait, an insatiable desire for power.

This is all much simpler than people are making it out to be. Aegon takes the IT, Dany kills Aegon, Dany takes the IT, Dany gets ousted by the people, Cersei thinks she's back in business by way of there being no-one else to crown but whichever remains of her children, enter TYMBQ, the Kingmaker and Hugor Hill to save the shattered realm from more Cersei.

I don't think Dany will get Rhaenyra'd. Not the same character, and Dany will likely have a kind of support that Rhaenyra didn't (loyal unsullied, advisors like Tyrion - who would probably make sure to stop any revolt before it begins in earnest).

I can see Dany deciding to vacate the throne willingly for her own reasons, or dying, but running from KL like Rhaenyra did, I doubt it.

[chrisdaw]

GRRM hasn't laid the groundwork for Dany to become Westeros' most hated without reason. When she sentences the man who saved KL from her father to the dragon pit the people's wrath will follow, and weeping head Tyrion won't be putting out those fires for her.

The riot that ousted Rhaenyra was really a storming of the dragon pit, the foreshadowing for Jaime's punishment is that Dany will feed him to the dragons.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Dany is obvious to us the readers, but not to Cersei.

Trust us on this, it's Dany. The actual Queen with the actual dragons on war path to Westeros,

not the younger, army-less girl still trapped in a region of Westeros that is consciously avoiding the outside the world, and who really wants to in the opposite direction, toward Winterfell (her home), not a throne that she wants nothing to do with.

[lojzelote]

GRRM hasn't laid the groundwork for Dany to become Westeros' most hated without reason. When she sentences the man who saved KL from her father to the dragon pit the people's wrath will follow, and weeping head Tyrion won't be putting out those fires for her.

The riot that ousted Rhaenyra was really a storming of the dragon pit, the foreshadowing for Jaime's punishment is that Dany will feed him to the dragons.

Err, what? Westeros considers Jaime to be a dishonorable kingslayer connected to the treacherous Lannisters. The people of King's Landing don't and won't give rat's ass about him. They have zero information on the wildfire plot since Jaime apparently was too butthurt to mention it to anybody (which I've always found a bit stupid development on the author's part, but I digress).

Also, color me surprised if Dany actually gets any kind of revenge on Jaime. GRRM doesn't seem to operate this way. I don't think he's going to give her any satisfaction on this matter. All Usurper's Dogs are dead, Jaime is the only one who remains, and I wouldn't be surprised if he perished after he (most likely) strangles Cersei. Cersei may be right in that that they will die together, Jaime holding on to Cersei's foot yet again. If nothing else, it would be poetic. He's as much to blame for the shitty state of Westeros as she is.

Anyway the one person who not only has the potential but who actually is nearly universally hated and despised is Tyrion.

[chrisdaw]

The wolf had no right to judge the lion, the dragon does, it was her father, and when Jaime is brought before her to answer for his crimes he will do so, and the whole of KL will learn of it. Dany will turn Jaime into a hero.

[lojzelote]

The wolf had no right to judge the lion, the dragon does, it was her father, and when Jaime is brought before her to answer for his crimes he will do so, and the whole of KL will learn of it. Dany will turn Jaime into a hero.

How does this totally unsupported statement refutes any of the realities of the books? You know, they would have to believe him, in the first place. Secondly, she might just force him to take black or permanently imprison him. Assuming she gets to judge him at all... which I'm nearly sure she won't.

[Hugorfonics]

Please do explain, why it's the fault and responsibility of a 11-12 year old?

Sure! The word fault is pretty heavy though, I like directly influence.

Ned went south because of Sansas engagement, being appointed hand wasn't enough, this led to everything. Later her actions and words result in Lady's death and actual enmity between Ned and Cersei. She tells Ned that Joffs a bastard, gets him arrested by Cersei and then forces him to confess by standing on the dais. She gets Jaime lannister free and creates karstark problems. Appoints loras to the kingsguard, resulting in the battle of dragonstone and stannis losing his own obsidian mine. Arrests Tyrion, and kills Joffrey and Lysa.

Its her responsibility because she is the blood of winterfell, and the North remembers

[lojzelote]

Sure! The word fault is pretty heavy though, I like directly influence.

Ned went south because of Sansas engagement, being appointed hand wasn't enough, this led to everything. Later her actions and words result in Lady's death and actual enmity between Ned and Cersei. She tells Ned that Joffs a bastard, gets him arrested by Cersei and then forces him to confess by standing on the dais. She gets Jaime lannister free and creates karstark problems. Appoints loras to the kingsguard, resulting in the battle of dragonstone and stannis losing his own obsidian mine. Arrests Tyrion, and kills Joffrey and Lysa.

Its her responsibility because she is the blood of winterfell, and the North remembers

Not sure if you're joking... or... :shocked:

[Wouter]

Dany is obvious to us the readers, but not to Cersei.

Trust us on this, it's Dany. The actual Queen with the actual dragons on war path to Westeros,

not the younger, army-less girl still trapped in a region of Westeros that is consciously avoiding the outside the world, and who really wants to in the opposite direction, toward Winterfell (her home), not a throne that she wants nothing to do with.

You can hardly ignore Margaery, the Queen who is actually married to Tommen now and which is the cause of Cersei's woes with the Faith.

Yes, she's obvious and Cersei suspects her. Which does not mean we as readers have to ignore her...

[Hugorfonics]

Not sure if you're joking... or... :shocked:

I'm not. What do you disagree with?

[lojzelote]

I'm not. What do you disagree with?

With pretty much everything. Her connection to what you have written down is tenuous at best and with no intent on her part at all. It's like if you wrote that Jon Snow is responsible for everything which has gone wrong in Westeros in the last decade and half because his suspect father eloped with his suspect mother which in its not wholly foreseeable consequences led to the civil war, which ended the Targaryen reign and started the Baratheon one, which led to Cersei marrying Robert, etc.

[Mithras]

With pretty much everything. Her connection to what you have written down is tenuous at best and with no intent on her part at all. It's like if you wrote that Jon Snow is responsible for everything which has gone wrong in Westeros in the last decade and half because his suspect father eloped with his suspect mother which in its not wholly foreseeable consequences led to the civil war, which ended the Targaryen reign and started the Baratheon one, which led to Cersei marrying Robert, etc.

Maybe so in the last decade but in the current timespan of the series, Bran is responsible for everything because he should have listened to his mother and not climbed to that damn tower.

[lojzelote]

Maybe so in the last decade but in the current timespan of the series, Bran is responsible for everything because he should have listened to his mother and not climbed to that damn tower.

Lol, yes. Perhaps we'll get Bran watching the past like a movie through weirnet and he'll headdesks when he gets to his own involvement in history. I didn't even felt like climbing that day, I was just bored! :stunned:

[Grail King]

Sure! The word fault is pretty heavy though, I like directly influence.

Ned went south because of Sansas engagement, being appointed hand wasn't enough, this led to everything. Later her actions and words result in Lady's death and actual enmity between Ned and Cersei. She tells Ned that Joffs a bastard, gets him arrested by Cersei and then forces him to confess by standing on the dais. She gets Jaime lannister free and creates karstark problems. Appoints loras to the kingsguard, resulting in the battle of dragonstone and stannis losing his own obsidian mine. Arrests Tyrion, and kills Joffrey and Lysa.

Its her responsibility because she is the blood of winterfell, and the North remembers

Lame, and you know nothing Hugor !

LMAO :laugh:

At Darry, Arya defending her friend Hit the Prince ( her future in-law ), her Wolf protected her, this is punishable at a minimum of loosing a hand, loosing her wolf,floggong or worst.

She put Sansa in the position of agreeing with her or Joffery, if she agreed with Arya then see above for likely outcome, if she lied for Joffery she goes against family, see above again for outcome.

Sansa told her father the truth, backed up Arya, but she then gets called in front of the King and states she doesn't remember, lie or first sign of Sansa trying political neautral?

The King tells Ned discipline Arya he do the same with Joffry, Ned agreed, yet honourable Ned never calls Sansa on the " I don't remember ", why not?

Cersei is out to punish Arya but there is no Nymeria so she sends Clegane after Mycah,and demands the remaining wolf.

Robert gives in so Ned did the deed himself so Cersei can't get the skin, Sansa lost her wolf because Cersei was a douche, it made no difference to Cersei if it was Nymeria or Lady she was going to get a wolf.

Sansa lost her wolf because of Joffery being a dick and this is giving him the benefit of doubt for the amount of wine he was drinking, Arya being rash, Cersi, Robert and Ned not being adults.

In KL Robert goes on a hunt, Cersei gives Lancel extra strong wine in hopes that Robert dies by accident either fall or what ever, Ned confronts her in the Godswoods and tells her he knows her children aren't legitimate and will be telling Robert on his return, he advised her to get the children and run ~ 4 days later Sansa runs to Cersei, Cersei already had guards at the ship, but she had no idea how soon they leave until Sansa came asking her to intervene as she was being sent home, this allowed Cersei to take Sansa, Jeyne Poole, and Arya as hostages about three days later and Ned taken and put in the cell, Ned lost his head when Joffry decided to do the opposite of what Cersei and Vary's wanted, to send him to the wall.

Ned lost his head because of Ned, Cersei, Joffrey and Little finger, not because of Sansa, I don't know how much flesh one needs from a 11 year old girl who was naive at worst but loosing her wolf, father, mother, brother and being married into the family that killed them by force needs to be taken; but Sansa more then paid in spades along with Jeyne and Mycah.

As for my reading and going back in forth between chapters and trying to follow a timeline I follow this :https://docs.google....Fha1ZfNUE#gid=8

I may not be 100% accurate, but much more then what you stated.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Sure! The word fault is pretty heavy though, I like directly influence.

Ned went south because of Sansas engagement, being appointed hand wasn't enough, this led to everything. Later her actions and words result in Lady's death and actual enmity between Ned and Cersei. She tells Ned that Joffs a bastard, gets him arrested by Cersei and then forces him to confess by standing on the dais. She gets Jaime lannister free and creates karstark problems. Appoints loras to the kingsguard, resulting in the battle of dragonstone and stannis losing his own obsidian mine. Arrests Tyrion, and kills Joffrey and Lysa.

Its her responsibility because she is the blood of winterfell, and the North remembers

:idea:

Why stop there? Why not blame Aegon the Conqueror since Mad Aerys would never have been king if that damn Targaryen had never set foot in Westeros and then none of this would have happened.

:rolleyes:

Seriously, though:

1. Ned went south for the handship and for Sansa's engagement, both of which he agreed to of his own free will. So he's responsible there.

2. Sansa's direwolf Lady: Cersei is the one who ordered her death, Robert is the one who condoned it and Ned is the one who actually carried it out. All of these 3 chose that course of behavior of their own free will.

3. Any enmity between Ned and Cersei is the responsibility of them.

4. Sansa did not tell Ned that Joff is a bastard; you're completely incorrect if you think that is true. Ned figured it out on his own. He, of his own free will, gave Cersei the opportunity to arrest him by laying all his cards on the table without a backup plan to secure his own safety and the safety of his children.

5. Ned confessed by his own choice. Even if he did it as a chance to save Sansa, that's still the choice that HE made.

6. Sansa had nothing to do with releasing Jaime Lannister; that was Catelyn. Even if she did it as a chance to save Sansa, that's still the choice that SHE made.

7. Karstark's problems with releasing Jaime are Karstark's responsibility, not Sansa's.

8. Sansa has absolutely no authority to appoint Loras to the Kingsguard; that's ludicrous.

9. Sansa sent Loras to conquer Dragonstone, arrested Tyrion, killed Joffrey and Lysa?

I can't even continue with this.... There isn't even a word in English that can convey how ridiculous, blatantly incorrect and idiotic this interpretation is.

[King17]

I'm rooting for bran to come out on top

Anyway sansa was according to the original plan either 1 not be a main character or 2 die I know the story has changed by a considerable amount but I doubt he changed it enough for sansa to get the iron throne

[Grail King]

I'm roting for bran to come out on top

Anyway sansa was according to the original plan either 1 not be a main character or 2 die I know the story has changed by a considerable amount but I doubt he changed it enough for sansa to get the iron throne

I think you mean rooting