"Lyanna was at the ToJ" = not canon

[Voice]

Not sure why you're singling me out. I was just responding to posts in this thread.

I kind of did huh. Didn't mean it that way really, only trying to urge folks towards constructive debate. Some differences will not be settled until the author settles them, but until then, there are always new angles and perspectives to consider.

[JNR]

Fortunately, this discussion will be solved relatively soon (or so we all hope).

:cheers:

There's little use debating a "theory" of what will happen in the stock market before Christmas when you can simply wait and see.

We are likely down to a matter of months on this issue. If WoW ponies up the revelation most of us expect, and all of us want, there will be no further argument beyond that point.

Some of us will be right, some of us will be wrong, and those who are wrong should be prepared to admit it with grace. But I doubt many of us are going to change our minds prior to that point.

[Eira Seren]

The problem with this approach is that we're not dealing with a "whole" text. R+L=J is a speculation on what the whole text might become, not an attempt to interpret what is already laid out. There are two more books left to read (hopefully) that will determine whether R+L=J is a reality. If you don't approve of speculation on the fates of some of the characters that are yet to be revealed in future texts, that's a whole different story. But any talk of "proof" or "canon" is just as presumptuous as speculation on the fate of the characters without the rest of the series to work with.

Hmm. I don't recall using words like "proof" or "canon". Eta: maybe I used canon in a response to ygraine, but hat was to critique the idea of what makes canon among fans, if I did.

"Proof" I try to stay away from, as it has a very silly value judgement attached. Compelling evidence, a solid case, etc are more my style. Interpretations are not invalid just because alternate interpretations could also be valid. At least not when dealing with fiction, IMO.

And am happy to base my reading of the text on the existing 5 books worth of text, and not throw it out in favor of waiting round for two books, which at this point are still so very existentially theoretical :) Sigh. Words are wind, indeed.

[TheSmallOther]

One more thing which makes me suspicious about Lyanna being in the tower. Please, bear in mind this doesn't prove or disapprove RLJ in any way so the reasons of your existence should not be shattered. As I mentioned already, if RLJ is true, it does not matter if Jon was born in the tower, or somewhere else.

Let us assume for a moment Lyanna was in the tower. And KG, according to the popular belief, were guarding her. Guarding, because of the orders they got from their lord (king or prince). At least there was some hint from GRRM himself, who told KG doesn't act on their own, if told otherwise. We are not told exactly what the order was, but since KG are staying there, they are probably guarding something valuable. And what is valuable? Of course, future king. And of course, KG were given such order, because if you start to think about this "guarding", that was not a proper way to do it.

Now, does it sound logical to you that Rhaegar would give an order for KG and Lyanna to stay in the tower? Your heir is about to be born. Let us assume for a moment Jon would be an heir for the throne (we have alternatives which would complicate Jon's path to throne). His guarding should be taking seriously, there is ongoing war around and it's not going well for Targaryens. Would you give an order to stay in the tower? Seriously? Any lesser lord like Ramsey could come and burn you inside alive. Three KG are not much of protection against even a small army. Small tower is not a protection, Ned with his friends managed to bring it down. For some reason it is common to believe Lyanna asked Ned to protect Jon from Robert, to keep him safe. On the other hand, apparently she, Rhaegar, and 3 KG didn't give a shit about their own safety. Otherwise they should run as far as possible. Aerys sent his wife and son to Dragonstone after Rhaegar was defeated. Viserys and Dany were constantly running in Essos to avoid possible killers. Even a boy Viserys was wise enough to ask friendly lords for help to hide them. At the end them managed to stay alive and now Dany is preparing to conquer Westeros. In his dream Ned asks KG whey they didn't flee like Willem Darry and Rhaella and they respond with the famous "The Kingsguard does not flee". But if your order was to guard your future king, then "does not flee" can be a death for your king. Unless your orders are on different matters, then it may be wise to face your enemy. The problem is we don't know what were these orders.

So my conclusion is that even if there was an order for KG to stay at the tower, it was by no means related to Lyanna. If Rhaegar was wise enough to think about safety of Lyanna and her child, he had to hide her somewhere safe. Some house of friendly lord is much safer place where Lyanna could stay incognito. She and her child could be protected at least for much longer time, sufficient to arrange escape, if needed. A tower can be a hiding place, but not for long. Ned and his friends proved it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That being said, there is something to the argument that the wiki is misleading and should have "allegedly" added judiciously.

ETA: :Should have stuck with popcorn.:

Why? We have a source stating she was found dying at ToJ, so why should we state anything different on the wiki, especially as we have nothing that states that the source might not be true?

[plectrum]

One more thing which makes me suspicious about Lyanna being in the tower. Please, bear in mind this doesn't prove or disapprove RLJ in any way so the reasons of your existence should not be shattered. As I mentioned already, if RLJ is true, it does not matter if Jon was born in the tower, or somewhere else.

Let us assume for a moment Lyanna was in the tower. And KG, according to the popular belief, were guarding her. Guarding, because of the orders they got from their lord (king or prince). At least there was some hint from GRRM himself, who told KG doesn't act on their own, if told otherwise. We are not told exactly what the order was, but since KG are staying there, they are probably guarding something valuable. And what is valuable? Of course, future king. And of course, KG were given such order, because if you start to think about this "guarding", that was not a proper way to do it.

Now, does it sound logical to you that Rhaegar would give an order for KG and Lyanna to stay in the tower? Your heir is about to be born. Let us assume for a moment Jon would be an heir for the throne (we have alternatives which would complicate Jon's path to throne). His guarding should be taking seriously, there is ongoing war around and it's not going well for Targaryens. Would you give an order to stay in the tower? Seriously? Any lesser lord like Ramsey could come and burn you inside alive. Three KG are not much of protection against even a small army. Small tower is not a protection, Ned with his friends managed to bring it down. For some reason it is common to believe Lyanna asked Ned to protect Jon from Robert, to keep him safe. On the other hand, apparently she, Rhaegar, and 3 KG didn't give a shit about their own safety. Otherwise they should run as far as possible. Aerys sent his wife and son to Dragonstone after Rhaegar was defeated. Viserys and Dany were constantly running in Essos to avoid possible killers. Even a boy Viserys was wise enough to ask friendly lords for help to hide them. At the end them managed to stay alive and now Dany is preparing to conquer Westeros. In his dream Ned asks KG whey they didn't flee like Willem Darry and Rhaella and they respond with the famous "The Kingsguard does not flee". But if your order was to guard your future king, then "does not flee" can be a death for your king. Unless your orders are on different matters, then it may be wise to face your enemy. The problem is we don't know what were these orders.

So my conclusion is that even if there was an order for KG to stay at the tower, it was by no means related to Lyanna. If Rhaegar was wise enough to think about safety of Lyanna and her child, he had to hide her somewhere safe. Some house of friendly lord is much safer place where Lyanna could stay incognito. She and her child could be protected at least for much longer time, sufficient to arrange escape, if needed. A tower can be a hiding place, but not for long. Ned and his friends proved it.

Secrecy would have been their shield. Rhaegar could sent them there without anyone knowing. That alone counts for more than the protection of a friendly lord. Most of the nobles in Westeros would have sold them out to the newly crowned King Robert in a heartbeat if it meant advancement. The only reason the deception worked for the (other) Targaryen kids was because they were housed either a) outside of Westeros, where the lord charged with guarding them would have no prospect of advancement in selling them to Robert, or b ) under the protection of a house with a blood feud against the ruling elites, and enough power to preclude any temptations regarding advancement.

[The Missing Crannogman]

Why? We have a source stating she was found dying at ToJ, so why should we state anything different on the wiki, especially as we have nothing that states that the source might not be true?

Doesn't the app also say that it was only rumoured that Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the TOJ?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Doesn't the app also say that it was only rumoured that Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the TOJ?

Not as far as I know, but I don't have the app, so I can't check for you.

Even so, the statement that Ned found Lyanna dying at ToJ is quite clear. I quoted the passage on the first page of this thread.

[Eira Seren]

Doesn't the app also say that it was only rumoured that Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the TOJ?

Can we figure it out without the app? Nothing I have in my books sitting here says she was anyplace at all. It mentions her in the same fever dream as the toj and the fight with the KG. it would be nice to be more definite and say all three are connected, but dreams have a funny way of contributing various unconnected memories and sticking them all together.

And am not even sure that Ned's dreams are visionary/magical, just illness/drug induced.

[plectrum]

One last question before I wash my hands of this thread: how many people here would object to the notion that Illyrio met with Varys in the dungeon of the Red Keep? Bear in mind, Arya didn't know their names, so she couldn't actually spell it out for you.

Also, if the intention here isn't to try and campaign against R+L=J, then why is Lyanna's presence at the ToJ the subject of the thread and not the meeting between (we can only assume) Varys and Illyrio?

[The Missing Crannogman]

Not as far as I know, but I don't have the app, so I can't check for you.

Even so, the statement that Ned found Lyanna dying at ToJ is quite clear. I quoted the passage on the first page of this thread.

Lord Robert, Lyanna's betrothed, was consumed by the need to avenge himself on Rhaegar, but the prince could not be found for the first months of the war. Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south.

Can we figure it out without the app? Nothing I have in my books sitting here says she was anyplace at all. It mentions her in the same fever dream as the toj and the fight with the KG. it would be nice to be more definite and say all three are connected, but dreams have a funny way of contributing various unconnected memories and sticking them all together.

And am not even sure that Ned's dreams are visionary/magical, just illness/drug induced.

I agree that the novels should be primarily used. I ask though about the app because judging by the passage above, the app seems to be in conflict with itself. It says both that rumour had it that Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the TOJ, and that Lyanna died there. Which would put it in conflict with itself. Either she was there or she was not.

One last question before I wash my hands of this thread: how many people here would object to the notion that Illyrio met with Varys in the dungeon of the Red Keep? Bear in mind, Arya didn't know their names, so she couldn't actually spell it out for you.

Also, if the intention here isn't to try and campaign against R+L=J, then why is Lyanna's presence at the ToJ the subject of the thread and not the meeting between (we can only assume) Varys and Illyrio?

GRRM confirmed it was Varys

5) About the two men Arya saw conspiring to restore Dany to Westeros in GoT--one is obviously Illyiro, but who is this other? My friend seems insistent that you confirmed that it is Varys, but IIRC, Varys is hairless while the man Arya saw had a beard.

Varys was a former mummer.

Could you clear this up, or will we find out later?

It was Varys.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1214

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I agree that the novels should be primarily used. I ask though about the app because judging by the passage above, the app seems to be in conflict with itself. It says both that rumour had it that Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the TOJ, and that Lyanna died there. Which would put it in conflict with itself. Either she was there or she was not.

I see no conflict. The passage you quote concerns the first few months of the war, and Rhaegars possible whereabouts.

The passage I posted on page one concerns a time 'after war's end', and concerns Lyanna's location.

With many months in between those two passages.

Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been at ToJ in those first few months of war. Lyanna definitely was at ToJ after the war had ended and Eddard arrived. No conflict necessary.

[COYStars]

I'm just going by what I got from the text. I read the conversation between Ned and the three KG in his fever dream as making it clear that a conflict was bound to happen. If you read it differently, that's very interesting and I'd like to hear your take.

Oh, it is clear from the discourse that conflict was inevitable.

But that doesn't get us anywhere. You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

Why did the discourse go that way? If they were just two bands of travellers going their own way then there's no reason why a battle would have been inevitable or why the conversation would have gone the way that it went. Good people don't simply fight to the death with other good people that they know and respect, unless there is a reason for it.

If the KG are not defending the ToJ and Ned is not trying to get into the ToJ, then there is no reason for them all to stop and fight to the death.

Besides, we know from the conversation that the KG are engaging in the battle in fulfilment of a vow. What was it?

[COYStars]

Well, not exactly. OP doesn't assert that Lyanna was not at the tower. What OP says is that we have no reliable evidence for the claim that she was. So the point is that we simply don't know.

People are forever confusing "evidence" with "proof".

There is sufficient evidence in the text that Lyanna was at the ToJ. Not proof, but evidence nevertheless.

[The Great Cornholio!]

People are forever confusing "evidence" with "proof".

There is sufficient evidence in the text that Lyanna was at the ToJ. Not proof, but evidence nevertheless.

hodor.

[COYStars]

1.Lyanna's death and the fight with the KGs took place at two separate locations: No idea why you conclude that based upon the evidence. Your assertion is as speculative as somebody asserting that Lyanna was definitely at the ToJ. Each would be as likely as each other, save that we have the KG conversation as evidence that Lyanna was there.

2. Ned admits to having some memory issues particularly as it relates to Lya. True. No memory of a period of time when he stayed motionless, holding her lifeless body. Not sure what conclusion you draw from this.

3. This room could be in Starfall for all we know. Unlikely, for reasons already discussed, but possible.

4.If its not a mystery or a matter of disclosure on Lya's location why don't we just get that from Ned's waking memory?There's no biggy to say something that's a fact is there? Why wouldn't GRRM just tell us in the first book who Jon's parents are, what's going to happen with the Others and who will end up on the Iron Throne? Then we wouldn't have to read six other books to find out.

[COYStars]

One more thing which makes me suspicious about Lyanna being in the tower. Please, bear in mind this doesn't prove or disapprove RLJ in any way so the reasons of your existence should not be shattered. As I mentioned already, if RLJ is true, it does not matter if Jon was born in the tower, or somewhere else.

Let us assume for a moment Lyanna was in the tower. And KG, according to the popular belief, were guarding her. Guarding, because of the orders they got from their lord (king or prince). At least there was some hint from GRRM himself, who told KG doesn't act on their own, if told otherwise. We are not told exactly what the order was, but since KG are staying there, they are probably guarding something valuable. And what is valuable? Of course, future king. And of course, KG were given such order, because if you start to think about this "guarding", that was not a proper way to do it.

Now, does it sound logical to you that Rhaegar would give an order for KG and Lyanna to stay in the tower? Your heir is about to be born. Let us assume for a moment Jon would be an heir for the throne (we have alternatives which would complicate Jon's path to throne). His guarding should be taking seriously, there is ongoing war around and it's not going well for Targaryens. Would you give an order to stay in the tower? Seriously? Any lesser lord like Ramsey could come and burn you inside alive. Three KG are not much of protection against even a small army. Small tower is not a protection, Ned with his friends managed to bring it down. For some reason it is common to believe Lyanna asked Ned to protect Jon from Robert, to keep him safe. On the other hand, apparently she, Rhaegar, and 3 KG didn't give a shit about their own safety. Otherwise they should run as far as possible. Aerys sent his wife and son to Dragonstone after Rhaegar was defeated. Viserys and Dany were constantly running in Essos to avoid possible killers. Even a boy Viserys was wise enough to ask friendly lords for help to hide them. At the end them managed to stay alive and now Dany is preparing to conquer Westeros. In his dream Ned asks KG whey they didn't flee like Willem Darry and Rhaella and they respond with the famous "The Kingsguard does not flee". But if your order was to guard your future king, then "does not flee" can be a death for your king. Unless your orders are on different matters, then it may be wise to face your enemy. The problem is we don't know what were these orders.

So my conclusion is that even if there was an order for KG to stay at the tower, it was by no means related to Lyanna. If Rhaegar was wise enough to think about safety of Lyanna and her child, he had to hide her somewhere safe. Some house of friendly lord is much safer place where Lyanna could stay incognito. She and her child could be protected at least for much longer time, sufficient to arrange escape, if needed. A tower can be a hiding place, but not for long. Ned and his friends proved it.

Assuming that Jon is the rightful Targ heir, once Rhaegar and Aerys were dead the KG wouldn't need to be following any orders. They revert to their primary vow - to protect the King with their lives. The orders of previous masters would not overrule that primary vow.

It makes absolute sense that they would be holed out in a secluded tower in the middle of nowhere. At least until Lyanna had given birth and then she and Jon were fit enough for travel. Wherever they went, the journey would not be easy or safe or quick. Not until mother and child were well and ready. Lyanna's sickness will have delayed them further.

Besides, three of the seven Kingsguard would have been a pretty formidable force, enough to see off most bandits.

[TheSmallOther]

Assuming that Jon is the rightful Targ heir, once Rhaegar and Aerys were dead the KG wouldn't need to be following any orders. They revert to their primary vow - to protect the King with their lives. The orders of previous masters would not overrule that primary vow.

It makes absolute sense that they would be holed out in a secluded tower in the middle of nowhere. At least until Lyanna had given birth and then she and Jon were fit enough for travel. Wherever they went, the journey would not be easy or safe or quick. Not until mother and child were well and ready. Lyanna's sickness will have delayed them further.

Besides, three of the seven Kingsguard would have been a pretty formidable force, enough to see off most bandits.

Well, Rhaella was pregnant and it didn't prevent her to travel to Dragonstone. Of course it's risky when you are about to give birth, but war is on you and you can risk your life or face certain death from your enemies. And you don't have to start going when Ned comes to tower. After sack of KL Ned took a quest to fight some other lords, he didn't travel straight to Dorne. Lyanna and KG had some time, albeit not much.

I'm not talking about some bandits. If some small lord finds out who are the inhabitants of the tower and decides to please new king, he can gather some of his bannermen. Lets say, 50 men. The war is over, people and soldiers are returning to their homes, some of them are able to fight.

It was very unwise to stay at the tower when news about war started to get ill. If Lyanna was in that tower together with Jon, then Jon got very lucky that Ned himself got there. What if there was Robert instead? Or Tywin Lannister? Anyone else except Ned basically would mean Jon's death. Yea, I hear that argument "tower in the middle of nowhere is good place to hide". However, facts show it wasn't a good place to hide, Ned found it with no difficulties (at least he doesn't mention any).

[WeaselPie]

Assuming that Jon is the rightful Targ heir, once Rhaegar and Aerys were dead the KG wouldn't need to be following any orders. They revert to their primary vow - to protect the King with their lives. The orders of previous masters would not overrule that primary vow.

It makes absolute sense that they would be holed out in a secluded tower in the middle of nowhere. At least until Lyanna had given birth and then she and Jon were fit enough for travel. Wherever they went, the journey would not be easy or safe or quick. Not until mother and child were well and ready. Lyanna's sickness will have delayed them further.

Besides, three of the seven Kingsguard would have been a pretty formidable force, enough to see off most bandits.

You've just stated that the Kingsguard were technically Kingless (and knew it) after Rhaegar and Aerys were dead, and before "Jon the rightful Targ heir" was born. Which is untrue, because Viserys would have been heir during that time, whether or not Aerys had made a decree (see debate in pinned thread).

And since you stated that all their previous orders would have been voided after the death of Rhaegar and Aerys (which they must know in your version of the story), they would have reverted to their primary orders, which are to protect the King. That would be Viserys at that point in time.

And we actually do know that they knew Viserys was still alive. Kind of ironic that in your response to an OP suggesting we put aside fan assumptions and refer back to the text, you leave out the one part that is actually in the books.

Further, you seem to be saying that the KG somehow knew Lyanna's unborn baby would be born male, healthy, alive AND legitimate.

This story has the KG shirking their primary duty after the death of Aerys and Rhaegar as well as having ESP before the birth of "Jon, the rightful Targ heir."

[Ygrain]

/cough/ *interregnum /cough/