"Lyanna was at the ToJ" = not canon

[COYStars]

Well, Rhaella was pregnant and it didn't prevent her to travel to Dragonstone. Of course it's risky when you are about to give birth, but war is on you and you can risk your life or face certain death from your enemies. And you don't have to start going when Ned comes to tower. After sack of KL Ned took a quest to fight some other lords, he didn't travel straight to Dorne. Lyanna and KG had some time, albeit not much.

I'm not talking about some bandits. If some small lord finds out who are the inhabitants of the tower and decides to please new king, he can gather some of his bannermen. Lets say, 50 men. The war is over, people and soldiers are returning to their homes, some of them are able to fight.

It was very unwise to stay at the tower when news about war started to get ill. If Lyanna was in that tower together with Jon, then Jon got very lucky that Ned himself got there. What if there was Robert instead? Or Tywin Lannister? Anyone else except Ned basically would mean Jon's death. Yea, I hear that argument "tower in the middle of nowhere is good place to hide". However, facts show it wasn't a good place to hide, Ned found it with no difficulties (at least he doesn't mention any).

KL is on the coast, though. It wouldn't be a particularly arduous journey to move from KL to Dragonstone. Very different from the ToJ, which is where Lyanna will presumably have been by the time that it looked like the war would turn south. Diffcult and slow to move her at that point, and difficult to keep inconspicuous.

We don't know how Ned found the ToJ and how difficult it was for him to do so, so to suggest that he found it without difficulty is purely speculative. But Dorne was, at least, out of the reaches of the war.

[COYStars]

You've just stated that the Kingsguard were technically Kingless (and knew it) after Rhaegar and Aerys were dead, and before "Jon the rightful Targ heir" was born. Which is untrue, because Viserys would have been heir during that time, whether or not Aerys had made a decree (see debate in pinned thread).

And since you stated that all their previous orders would have been voided after the death of Rhaegar and Aerys (which they must know in your version of the story), they would have reverted to their primary orders, which are to protect the King. That would be Viserys at that point in time.

And we actually do know that they knew Viserys was still alive. Kind of ironic that in your response to an OP suggesting we put aside fan assumptions and refer back to the text, you leave out the one part that is actually in the books.

Further, you seem to be saying that the KG somehow knew Lyanna's unborn baby would be born male, healthy, alive AND legitimate.

This story has the KG shirking their primary duty after the death of Aerys and Rhaegar as well as having ESP before the birth of "Jon, the rightful Targ heir."

Kind of ironic that, in a thread where you are arguing that we put aside assumptions and stick solely to the text, you are making a great number of assumptions as to what I said, assumptions which are not justified based upon the text of my post.

[WeaselPie]

Kind of ironic that, in a thread where you are arguing that we put aside assumptions and stick solely to the text, you are making a great number of assumptions as to what I said, assumptions which are not justified based upon the text of my post.

I've underlined every pertinent line you provided, none of which are based on the books. You're welcome to clarify how I read the underlined words in your assumptions.

[COYStars]

I've underlined every pertinent line you provided, none of which are based on the books. You're welcome to clarify how I read the underlined words in your assumptions.

You're welcome to learn how to engage in polite and pleasant discourse. Be my guest.

[WeaselPie]

You're welcome to learn how to engage in polite and pleasant discourse. Be my guest.

Pointing out actual text vs fan assumption may indeed be unpleasant for some.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

WeaselPie, before this thread is closed for length.. did you ask the question to Ran or anyone else whose answer you will accept?

[COYStars]

Pointing out actual text vs fan assumption may indeed be unpleasant for some.

It's all about the words you use and the way that you put them across. It's up to you as to whether you choose to make your point politely and pleasantly, or rudely.

There's no reason at all why challenging a position has to be unpleasant for anyone. Unless you make it so.

[LmL]

WeaselPie, before this thread is closed for length.. did you ask the question to Ran or anyone else whose answer you will accept?

If The World of Ice and Fire - written by George R. R. Martin - isn't good enough for WeaselPie, then Ran's word certainly isn't going to mean anything.

Just in case anyone missed it, this entire thread depends on IGNORING the author's own words:

At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy. - TWOIAF

[Amoracchius]

Oh, it is clear from the discourse that conflict was inevitable.

But that doesn't get us anywhere. You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

Why did the discourse go that way? If they were just two bands of travellers going their own way then there's no reason why a battle would have been inevitable or why the conversation would have gone the way that it went. Good people don't simply fight to the death with other good people that they know and respect, unless there is a reason for it.

If the KG are not defending the ToJ and Ned is not trying to get into the ToJ, then there is no reason for them all to stop and fight to the death.

Besides, we know from the conversation that the KG are engaging in the battle in fulfilment of a vow. What was it?

Again, I think there are other possibilities. Catelyn was not defending anyone at the Inn at the Crossroads when she came across Tyrion, that doesn't mean that there was no reason for a conflict between Cat and Tyrion. Maybe Lyanna and Jon were already somewhere else Dorne, the KG heard Ned et al were coming for her through the Princes Pass so the headed north to prevent them from getting to them, and the Tower of Joy just happened to be the two sides happened to meet. Maybe both sides were chasing Lyanna and Jon south, and the fought to prevent the other group from reaching them first. Sure, we can dissect any of these possibilities and cast doubt on any of them, but the point is that other possibilities exist besides the story that is told on the wiki, so perhaps the wiki needs to be amended.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

WeaselPie, before this thread is closed for length.. did you ask the question to Ran or anyone else whose answer you will accept?

At least it's gonna be closed. I've never seen an obvious troll thread go on this long.

[Ygrain]

If The World of Ice and Fire - written by George R. R. Martin - isn't good enough for WeaselPie, then Ran's word certainly isn't going to mean anything.

Just in case anyone missed it, this entire thread depends on IGNORING the author's own words:

He's the guy who ignored the SSM on Jon and Aegon's respective ages, after all.

[Ygrain]

At least it's gonna be closed. I've never seen an obvious troll thread go on this long.

Perhaps no-one bothered to report it.

[LmL]

If The World of Ice and Fire - written by George R. R. Martin - isn't good enough for WeaselPie, then Ran's word certainly isn't going to mean anything.

Just in case anyone missed it, this entire thread depends on IGNORING the author's own words:

At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy. - TWOIAF

He's the guy who ignored the SSM on Jon and Aegon's respective ages, after all.

Honestly, I was unaware of this quote from TWOAIF - it escaped notice because it didn't seem like news to me - and I did not see you post it on the front page. I honestly feel a little dumb for even wasting me time commenting on this thread at all, since it's premise is rendered entirely moot by this quote.

This conversation, the entire thread, is pointless and invalid. Ned found Lyanna at the Tower of Joy - end of story. It's canon. The wiki is 100% accurate. Any debate about it is nonsensical.

/thread

[Nittanian]

If The World of Ice and Fire - written by George R. R. Martin - isn't good enough for WeaselPie, then Ran's word certainly isn't going to mean anything.

Just in case anyone missed it, this entire thread depends on IGNORING the author's own words:

At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy. - TWOIAF

To specify, that excerpt is from the Lyanna Stark entry in George R. R. Martin's A World of Ice and Fire (the official reference app), not The World of Ice and Fire (Maester Yandel's world book). The world book doesn't mention Lyanna's fate, as far as I can find. The world book is written in-universe for Robert, so maesters would only know what survivors of the tower of joy revealed, and many readers believe that Ned kept details from Robert. The app is not written in-universe, however.

[Ser Leftwich]

The question comes down to: do you believe this entry in the App?

Some do, some do not. (Just to be clear, I do.)

[LmL]

To specify, that excerpt is from the Lyanna Stark entry in George R. R. Martin's A World of Ice and Fire (the official reference app), not The World of Ice and Fire (Maester Yandel's world book). The world book doesn't mention Lyanna's fate, as far as I can find. The world book is written in-universe for Robert, so maesters would only know what survivors of the tower of joy revealed, and many readers believe that Ned kept details from Robert. The app is not written in-universe, however.

Oh say what now? :bang: Ok well I at least have the good grace to apologize then. No, I certainly wouldn't treat the app as canon. I retract my statements concerning canon and the point being moot, the thread being invalid, etc. *embarassing* :blushing:

However, I don't think the app is meaningless, as George did endorse it and was involved.. but for a technicality like this, I don't think it settles the issue. TWOIAF, unreliable narrator taken into consideration, is canon, 100%, so this statement being in there would be different.

Still, I see no evidence to suspect Lyanna wasn't at the ToJ, which is kind of the real issue here.

[Ygrain]

The question comes down to: do you believe this entry in the App?

Some do, some do not. (Just to be clear, I do.)

So do I. Because, it's not like the book states otherwise :p

[Voice]

I personally didn't even know this cadre of RLJ deniers existed until about a month ago. Being somewhat surprised, but curious at their initial arguments, I went round with them for about 10 pages, trying to see if their "heresy" had any merit. I hadn't spent a ton of time on RLJ, and I'm open to any idea if it has merit. (The RLJ heretics have their own little "gripe about Westeros.org" forum where they talk about how mean RLJ supporters are.) In ten pages of debate, not one of them put forward anything resembling a coherent alternative scenario for Jon's parentage, and their attempts to explain away what appear to be RLJ clues was laughable at best. Why did I go through ten pages of their non-answers? Because I am open-minded an interested in the truth, no matter how strange it may sound, and I wanted to be absolutely sure that they did not have some sort of valid argument. I wasn't against the possibility of everyone being wrong about something, that happens sometimes - but if you can't make your case in ten pages of debate, or 15 years of debate for that matter, there isn't a case to be made. Now I understand why the heretics were forced into their own thread. The sheer inanity of their arguments is just really painful to read, and since they don't want to put forward any ideas of their own, but only attack other people's ideas, they aren't very good debate participants.

Clearly, you do not understand. Have you ever visited Heresy? It sure doesn't sound like it.

I completely missed this post. Maybe that was a good thing. I'm really surprised LmL. I defended you against some of those you are now demeaning and I thought you were far more open minded than this.

Despite what you may think, or believe to understand, Heresy is not an RLJ denier thread. In fact, you will find many Heretics who believe Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I, myself, regularly defend tenets of RLJ within Heresy.

You will not find a more respectful, informed, and open-minded conversation anywhere. As far as attacking other people's ideas, that is quite the opposite of reality. The strength of Heresy rests on the wide array and variety of ideas brought forth. Opposition to any idea is welcome, and in fact, encouraged. I know you had a bad experience at the other site, and I certainly do not begrudge you for taking issue with the way you were unwelcomed (it was quite immature), but this comment is a gross mischaracterization of Heresy threads on westeros.org.

Heretics were never forced into their own thread. Heresy grew out of questioning the status quo, and, the belief that there are far more important aspects of this story than who claims the IT. As Black Crow states to open the thread:

Pray don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed or might have discussed over the years. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

Heresy you see is not of itself a theory and heretics do not take and hold a particular stance on issues, but instead its a free-flowing and above all friendly series of discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall, the Otherlands which lie beyond; warging, skinchanging, greenseeing, the old gods, the children and the white walkers - and the possible Stark connection to both.

[LmL]

Voice, my mistake to confuse the "RLJ deniers" with the entire heretic thread. I was really talking about the specific group of people who do not think RLJ was true, not the entirety of the heresy thread, so my mistake. However, I was referring to the issue the RLJ deniers have had with their threads getting shut down, some people say they have been banned or booted from the RLJ thread, etc. Over on the "other board" it seems like pretty much every other comment was complaining about something along these lines.

[LmL]

So do I. Because, it's not like the book states otherwise :P

Has anyone eve found an instance of the app being proven to be mistaken?