Robb as a Commander?

[DireWolfSpirit]

My impression is that G.R.R.M. was portraying the Young Wolf to

be a war commander who was revered and respected as a force to be

reckoned with.

I just do not see anything from the author that should contradict the way Martin clearly

heeped some mythical status on Robs success in battle.

He's brilliant in the sense Achilles is brilliant, yet brought down from flukish circumstance

like Achilles. That's the comparison it reminds me of.

[Lord Lannister]

Robb was great at winning battles... terrible at winning wars. Or understanding the relationship between war and politics.

[Nyrhex]

But Tywin's wasn't the only army that Robb fought. He fought and destroyed Stafford's and Jamie's. Tywin was a better politician, but that isn't what this thread is about

Robb never faced Tywin. He feared to face him when he outnumbered him 22,000 to 20,000 men, and he never once tried to take him on. Robb faced Jaime in battle with the odds being slanted heavily in Robb's favor due to Jamie's mistakes, and then Stafford, with even worse mistakes. Tywin had lost no battle aside from not completeing the Battle of the Fords. Never losing a battle means nothing by itself. When you are handed easy victories it means that you have to fuck up considerably in order to not have a track record like that.

At the time Robb was headed North, Moat Caillin was garrisoned not by 63 sick men, but by Victarion Greyjoy and the Iron Fleet. Victarion takes them with him when he goes to the Kingsmoot. Otherwise, anybody trying to pass the neck would have a much tougher time.

On the way to the Twins Robb hears from Mallister that Balon had died. Victarion and the Iron Fleet would soon leave to the Kingmoot, as Robb knew, leaving a garrison. Even if he suspected it to be a strong garrison, it is still far fewer men than Victarion's host.

My impression is that G.R.R.M. was portraying the Young Wolf to

be a war commander who was revered and respected as a force to be

reckoned with.

I just do not see anything from the author that should contradict the way Martin clearly

heeped some mythical status on Robs success in battle.

He's brilliant in the sense Achilles is brilliant, yet brought down from flukish circumstance

like Achilles. That's the comparison it reminds me of.

Clearly Martin meant Robb to be a good battle commander, but what we see is not. The problem I have is with fans who insist that Robb is one of the greatest generals, showing "genius", and is on par with our own history's greatest generals.

[Blackfish Tully]

On the way to the Twins Robb hears from Mallister that Balon had died. Victarion and the Iron Fleet would soon leave to the Kingmoot, as Robb knew, leaving a garrison. Even if he suspected it to be a strong garrison, it is still far fewer men than Victarion's host.

Why would Robb know about Victarion leaving and taking the Iron Fleet to the Kingsmoot ? Would Robb even know what a Kingsmoot is ? There has not been a Kingsmoot for thousands of years so I doubt that Robb or any of his men would suspect one was about to happen.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Why would Robb know about Victarion leaving and taking the Iron Fleet to the Kingsmoot ? Would Robb even know what a Kingsmoot is ? There has not been a Kingsmoot for thousands of years so I doubt that Robb or any of his men would suspect one was about to happen.

Robb knew that Victarion and the majority of the Ironborn would be leaving. He is told that Balon has died, Euron has returned and Robb realizes that both Victarion and Asha would have to abandon the North to stake their claim.

"The ironborn will be setting sail toward Pyke, I expect. Theon told me how his people think. Every captain a king on his own deck. They will all want a voice in the succession."

"...And he will take many of his captains, count on that. The leaders. He will need such men to speak for him if he hopes to sit the Seastone Chair."

This is a pretty clear description of a kingsmoot.

[Blackfish Tully]

Robb knew that Victarion and the majority of the Ironborn would be leaving. He is told that Balon has died, Euron has returned and Robb realizes that both Victarion and Asha would have to abandon the North to stake their claim.

"The ironborn will be setting sail toward Pyke, I expect. Theon told me how his people think. Every captain a king on his own deck. They will all want a voice in the succession."

"...And he will take many of his captains, count on that. The leaders. He will need such men to speak for him if he hopes to sit the Seastone Chair."

This is a pretty clear description of a kingsmoot.

i doubt he knows what a Kingsmoot is or that they would have one , It's been thousands of years but clearly I was wrong about him knowing Victorian would take the Iron Fleet with him , i'd completely forgotten about that.

[Beautiful Balon]

Robb never faced Tywin. He feared to face him when he outnumbered him 22,000 to 20,000 men, and he never once tried to take him on. Robb faced Jaime in battle with the odds being slanted heavily in Robb's favor due to Jamie's mistakes, and then Stafford, with even worse mistakes. Tywin had lost no battle aside from not completeing the Battle of the Fords. Never losing a battle means nothing by itself. When you are handed easy victories it means that you have to fuck up considerably in order to not have a track record like that.

So he chose to fight battles he knew he could win.

I'm pretty sure that makes him a good commander.

[hear me bore]

With the possible exception of the man he's named for, he is the only commander in the context of the books who touches on genius/brilliance/exceptionality.

This. Hard to beat undefeated.

[The Holy Goat]

I'd say Robb Stark is amongst the best commanders we have seen so far in ASOIAF, right up there with STannis and, Jon Connington, Eddard Stark, Randyll Tarly etc..

[Nyrhex]

So he chose to fight battles he knew he could win.

I'm pretty sure that makes him a good commander.

No, it makes him at most competent. Picking battles that you know you would lose is stupid. Picking battles that you have no clear idea who is going to win is risky. Picking fights that are practically gift-wrapped because the enemy ignores the very real possibility that you could be on him in short time does not make you a good commander, they make you a lucky one. Robb was lucky up until the moment he was not, and then he died. Nearly 30,000 men in the Riverlands at his disposal in mid-ASOS, and he wants to go home, root out a handfull of Ironborn and reclaim 2 castles and a ruin that are already going to be retaken with local forces, while he has 70,000 enemy troops with no other theater to worry about right next door to the Riverlands. The NW sends multiple letters to him and his bannermen, all asking for more men while a Wildling horde is making it's way to invade the North. Robb and his bannermen send no one, and the only time Robb gives a fuck in the NW's general direction is when he contemplates giving them 100 miserable men, on the condition that they release his half-brother from his vows. Robb was marching to a clusterfuck, and left a clusterfuck in the Riverlands. Stratigically speaking, he was an idiot. The Riverlands would have been lost, the Wildlings would have been defeated after having broken through and burned half thier way to Winterfell, and Robb would have had ravaged North with Winter coming to start thinking of how he is going to either march south to his doom, or bunker down and abandon half his realm. Come spring (assuming no Others), Robb would be facing the Redwyne fleet and a massive Lannister-Tyrell host knocking at his door.

Tactically, all he did was basic stuff, nothing special to place on a pedestal and praise as genius. He placed a basic U-ambush for a foe that refuses to recognise the location of enemy forces nearby, and that does not bother to place his men in formation, but opts to place them all in a neat block. Robb has archers in the woods, then hits the enemy cavalry with his own. At the camps 3,000 heavy horse attack 4,000 sleeping infantry. Robb's own charge actually manages to fail and the Lannister foot think they could have held him off, if it was not for Blackwood's sally. At Oxcross Robb again attacks a sleeping enemy, one made up of fresh troops. No sentries and Robb is able to get men to the horse lines and so, again, does not have to deal with the enemy cavalry. His idea after that, in his own words? To wait for Tywin to bos him in, then running around in the Westelands like some cartoon chase while the Lannisters outnumber him, know the ground, and can cut off his different task forces that he had just split.

So aside from luck, no, Robb showed very little to grant his nickname legitimacy. He was great at propaganda, unbelievably lucky in battle, and shit at fighting his war.

[Arrow of the Morning]

He was a good commander. He was a good tactical leader, but not so good strategist, also was not a good politician.

[Dorian Martell]

Sorry but you are wrong. Before he even gets leaves for Harrenhal he is aware of the danger of Renly and Stannis.

"My grandson still sits the Iron Throne, but the eunuch has heard whispers from the south. Renly Baratheon wed Margaery Tyrell at Highgarden this fortnight past, and now he has claimed the crown. The bride's father and brothers have bent the knee and sworn him their swords."

"Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai."

Tywin is fighting multiple enemies. Sometimes there are people on this board who either dont seem to realize this or just want to ignore it and pretend the War of the Five Kings only features two sides.

Nope. He was biding his time. Rather than go and deal with Robb he was wary of Renly or Stannis attacking.

When he thought Stannis would be stuck at Storms End he then went to finish Robb off.

"Storm's End was strong, it should have been able to hold out for half a year or more . . . time enough for his father to finish with Robb Stark."

I dont think you understand what defeated means.

Tywin had just won on the Green Fork with the North taking around 5k losses.

Jaime was defeated. The Crown (Tywin) was not.

Yes it is. When a commander takes the capitals garrison to serve in an army and the capital is then taken you can blame that on the commander.

A COMMANDER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR CONTROLLING AND SUPERVISING HIS SUBORDINATES DURING COMBAT OPERATIONS

Rodrik, Roose, Edmure, Glover etc all fall under Robbs command just like Jaime, Tyrion and Stafford fall under Tywins.

If you are blaming Tywin for the defeats of Jaime and Stafford, and you should he is the commander, then you should do the same for Rodrik and Jaime.

He commanded Roose to go to the Green Fork. That was a defeat.

No he wasn't.

He failed to properly command the defences of his capital, leaving it severely weakened and vulnerable to attack.

Command isn't just about charging into battle and hogging all the glory. That is just the glamour side. It is also about keeping your men in line, keeping up morale even when the odds are against you, communication and organization.

Robb was a movie commander, great at all the flashy stuff but piss poor at the boring stuff they leave off screen.

1: Tywin was aware of renly and Stannis, but he was not fighting them. If he was, where were the battles. Last time I read the books he only met the Tyrell host as an ally.

2: The green fork was a Ruse. The north took loses but tywin was occupied and it allowed Robb to Crush the siege of Riverrun (that is a win in case you were wondering)

3: He did fail to properly garrison the north, but, once again, that was not a battle commanders duty, that was a lord's/king's. I know you keep saying it is but you are wrong. It's ok. This is just an online discussion about a book we all love

4: He was a dashing, flashy, glorious commander. As I stated earlier, Robb WINNING EVERY BATTLE, even battles against major odds, was a plot device to make his ultimate loss by politics and betrayal all the more terrible for the reader. Up until the wedding, the reader had hope that the plan to take Moat Cailin would work. Little did they know he would get run through by his allies.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1: Tywin was aware of renly and Stannis, but he was not fighting them. If he was, where were the battles. Last time I read the books he only met the Tyrell host as an ally.

Renly had crowned himself, Tyrell was the overlord of the Reach. Tywin would have been a fool to ignore that threat.

That is the differnce between Robb and Tywin. Tywin knew that Renly, Mace, Stannis and Balon could potentially attack and planned for it. Robb just ignored the potential threat of the Ironborn and the people of Winterfell and Deepwood Motte paid for it.

2: The green fork was a Ruse. The north took loses but tywin was occupied and it allowed Robb to Crush the siege of Riverrun (that is a win in case you were wondering)

It was a Lannister victory. There was a battle and the Lannisters won, it is that simple.

It might have stalled Tywin, but it still counts as a Northern loss as does the Battle of Duskendale and Ruby Ford.

Do you class the battle of the Fords as a Lannister win?

3: He did fail to properly garrison the north, but, once again, that was not a battle commanders duty, that was a lord's/king's. I know you keep saying it is but you are wrong. It's ok. This is just an online discussion about a book we all love

This thread is titled 'Commander'. Robb was the commander of the North and a commander is not just about attack, but defence as well.

If this was a thread about generals you might have a point, but Commanders have responsibility for what their generals do and Roose and Edmure where two of Robbs generals.

4: He was a dashing, flashy, glorious commander. As I stated earlier, Robb WINNING EVERY BATTLE, even battles against major odds, was a plot device to make his ultimate loss by politics and betrayal all the more terrible for the reader. Up until the wedding, the reader had hope that the plan to take Moat Cailin would work. Little did they know he would get run through by his allies.

As a warrior he had won every battle he was in. As a commander he ordered Roose to the Green Fork and the Northern host got beat. While Robb the warrior was not involved Robb the commander was.

Why is it when Robb beats Jaime and Stafford that (rightly) counts as a defeat for Tywin yet when Robbs chosen subordinates get beat that has nothing to do with Robb the commander?

[Barty]

Very Good Commander - Could have been great had he grown up and become more experienced in politics. I think the perfect comparison is Hannibal (as has been said before on this thread) - Knew how to achieve victory, but not how to use it.

[Barty]

Why is it when Robb beats Jaime and Stafford that (rightly) counts as a defeat for Tywin yet when Robbs chosen subordinates get beat that has nothing to do with Robb the commander?

Because Stafford and Jaime did not lose deliberately. Roose did. He set up those men at Duskendale and the Rubyford to die - and even at the Green Fork it can be argued that he was just bleeding off the strength of enemy houses.

I do agree that he failed to choose the right guy for the job - And this can be blamed purely on him being too naive and inexperienced. I dont think the thought ever crosses his mind that Bolton could be a traitor and losing deliberately - Compare this to Tywin who is constantly on the lookout for traitors in the small council and whose express command to Tyrion was to root out these traitors and "Heads, Pikes, Walls".

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Because Stafford and Jaime did not lose deliberately. Roose did.

No he didn't. You are going to have to have find conclusive evidence that Roose deliberately lost.

GRRM himself says on the battle: Take the Battle of Green Fork. Had his night march taken Lord Tywin unawares and won the battle, he would have smashed the Lannisters and become the hero of the hour. While if it failed... well, you see what happened.

[Barty]

No he didn't. You are going to have to have find conclusive evidence that Roose deliberately lost.

GRRM himself says on the battle: Take the Battle of Green Fork. Had his night march taken Lord Tywin unawares and won the battle, he would have smashed the Lannisters and become the hero of the hour. While if it failed... well, you see what happened.

Thats only the Green Fork - and we do know that over there he did not commit his own men. Lets just say he didnt try to win that one very hard. Duskendale and Ruby Ford are very much deliberate losses.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Thats only the Green Fork - and we do know that over there he did not commit his own men. Lets just say he didnt try to win that one very hard. Duskendale and Ruby Ford are very much deliberate losses.

No one said Duskenadale and Ruby Ford were not deliberate.

I'm not sure how Robb making a self serving Roose one of his generals is any better or worse than Tywin giving the incompetent Stafford control of a Lannister army.

Both commanders take responsibility for the losses their subordinates made. Yet on this board you will frequently see defeats to Jaime and Stafford counting as defeats for Tywin, which they should, but Rodrik and Roose being beaten somehow having nothing to do with Robb.

[Barty]

No one said Duskenadale and Ruby Ford were not deliberate.

I'm not sure how Robb making a self serving Roose one of his generals is any better or worse than Tywin giving the incompetent Stafford control of a Lannister army.

Both commanders take responsibility for the losses their subordinates made. Yet on this board you will frequently see defeats to Jaime and Stafford counting as defeats for Tywin, which they should, but Rodrik and Roose being beaten somehow having nothing to do with Robb.

Its worse because Tywin is an experienced battle commander and knows Stafford pretty well - In fact Stafford is apparently pretty famous for being a dullard. Robb OTOH is a child - 15 years old when he chooses Roose to lead his foot. Its definitely a mistake to choose Roose (one Ned might not have made) but in Robb's case it can be blamed on Inexperience, but in Tywin's case it is just stupidity.

And btw Robb did not choose Rodrik to be castellan of WF, Catelyn did.

[Universal Sword Donor]

No one said Duskenadale and Ruby Ford were not deliberate.

I'm not sure how Robb making a self serving Roose one of his generals is any better or worse than Tywin giving the incompetent Stafford control of a Lannister army.

Both commanders take responsibility for the losses their subordinates made. Yet on this board you will frequently see defeats to Jaime and Stafford counting as defeats for Tywin, which they should, but Rodrik and Roose being beaten somehow having nothing to do with Robb.

There's *some* merit to that point. Jaime and Stafford were reckless/idiots but on a much "larger" scale. If blame is to be assigned for Green Fork, Robb definitely deserves that. No argument there. Roose did send/leave men to die twice. The only betrayal Tywin had was Vargo Hoat and he lost a hundred or so guardsmen, knowing full well that sellswords are not exactly trustworthy. I see the viewpoint that it's easier to pin blame on Tywin's "losses" than Robb's "losses".

Oxcross versus leaving so few men in WF that 17 men can take an entire fortress? One is basic army encampment security. The other is such mind bogglingly improbable that, I don't even know. I still shake my head at that.