[Book Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Repercussion V2

[The Northern Scholar]

Does anyone else feel like they've gained a better appreciation of the last two books as a result of this season and the fan reaction? I definitely have.

Yes. I’m not feeling the social media thing this week for some reason. I’ll get to it. I dug up my notes on Sa`id from undergrad, so that should be fun.

I totally understand the feeling, it can be a weird place sometimes.

[Cas Stark]

Does anyone else feel like they've gained a better appreciation of the last two books as a result of this season and the fan reaction? I definitely have.

I totally understand the feeling, it can be a weird place sometimes.

No. I still think they are deeply flawed and bloated and that many of the new storylines are the author indulging himself and getting lost in the details at the expense of the story he's telling. But, that makes my disappointment w/D&D's "streamlining" cough cough even worse, because instead of streamlining and paring down and keeping the essence, they re arranged things and threw in their own crap filler and bloat and gave several characters personality changes.

[The Northern Scholar]

No. I still think they are deeply flawed and bloated and that many of the new storylines are the author indulging himself and getting lost in the details at the expense of the story he's telling. But, that makes my disappointment w/D&D's "streamlining" cough cough even worse, because instead of streamlining and paring down and keeping the essence, they re arranged things and threw in their own crap filler and bloat and gave several characters personality changes.

That's definitely fair, and I'm not about to proclaim my love for the last two books relative to what preceded them. But my first read left me deeply unsatisfied with them. Having seen some of the decisions the show has made (dumbing down the Sparrows, cutting up Dorne's plot, etc) has given me a better appreciation of the complexity of the last two books even IF there is still a lot of bloat.

[OldGimletEye]

No. I still think they are deeply flawed and bloated and that many of the new storylines are the author indulging himself and getting lost in the details at the expense of the story he's telling. But, that makes my disappointment w/D&D's "streamlining" cough cough even worse, because instead of streamlining and paring down and keeping the essence, they re arranged things and threw in their own crap filler and bloat and gave several characters personality changes.

Exactly. There is a lot that could be reasonably cut out of AFFC. For instance, much of Jaime's arc could be paired down and shortened, without doing a great deal of harm to his basic character development and his time in the Riverlands. That would be completely understandable. What's not very understandable is sending Jaime to Dorne with Bronn just because D & D decided it would be really awesome to have some kind of dudebro road trip.

[mormont]

Why was the other thread locked?

The length explanation doesn't really make sense since I've seen rant and rave thread go well over 100 pages like last week's thread which sits at 148(!) pages.

It was not locked for length only. It was locked because people seem to be taking the title altogether too literally, to the point where the mods are considering scrapping these threads altogether.

Let us be clear. On no thread is it acceptable to be posting personal attacks on other users. Critique the series, critique the writing, critique the direction and the plotting and the acting all you like. But don't attack other fans for the heinous sin of liking things you don't like. Don't make snide personal remarks about the actors or the writers or anyone posting in this thread or on this board. Don't, in short, be an asshole. That is my number one rule for this board and there are people in this thread breaking it. If that continues, these threads will be stopped.

[Cas Stark]

Exactly. There is a lot that could be reasonably cut out of AFFC. For instance, much of Jaime's arc could be paired down and shortened, without doing a great deal of harm to his basic character development and his time in the Riverlands. That would be completely understandable. What's not very understandable is sending Jaime to Dorne with Bronn just because D & D decided it would be really awesome to have some kind of dudebro road trip.

It's still hard to say overall w/out the ending, ya know.

I thought the BF confrontation was epic, and I hope for big things from the BF. He disappeared in the show and Jamie went to Dorne. What does that mean? It could mean the BF does nothing in the future in GRRM world or it could mean D/D think Dorne is sexier or theyr'e saving the riverlands for next year.

I have a hard time believing the complete obliteration of the Northern lords from the show is a parallel to the books, so I suspect that I am always going to find this Sansa story with no Manderly and the maid saying the North remembers as unforgivable BS, but nobody really knows until and if Martin finishes the series.

But, bad staging and dialogue like the Sand Snakes should be criticized on it's own merits, as Jamie Lannister, one of the most recognizable men in Westeros..who was, let us recall, recognized by a random peasant in the riverlands...going on an undercover mission to Dorne is just stupid as fuck plotting and should be called out as stupid even in their own context of the show.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

My biggest complaint will always be that they found "Myranda" a more important character to cast, along with "Old Lady number 1" and "Old man 2", than Wyman Manderly and Barbrey Dustin. Imagine how awesome would it be if Sansa had met Wyman Manderly in Winterfell, as he'd arrive there for the Marriage, and he made his speech to her, telling her about his plans, and Lady Dustin interacting with Sansa, maybe being the one giving the Lyanna story, talking about Brandon and Ned as well? They could plot alongside her for the escape of Winterfell and the taking of the castle.

Instead, we are stuck with one of the dumbest, most plot-device storylines in the show. I mean, is anyone really thinking the Bat-signal candle is not something brought up just to build dramatic tension? "Will Sansa be able to lit it in time? Oh, the horror!"

[OldGimletEye]

It's still hard to say overall w/out the ending, ya know.

I thought the BF confrontation was epic, and I hope for big things from the BF. He disappeared in the show and Jamie went to Dorne. What does that mean? It could mean the BF does nothing in the future in GRRM world or it could mean D/D think Dorne is sexier or theyr'e saving the riverlands for next year.

I have a hard time believing the complete obliteration of the Northern lords from the show is a parallel to the books, so I suspect that I am always going to find this Sansa story with no Manderly and the maid saying the North remembers as unforgivable BS, but nobody really knows until and if Martin finishes the series.

But, bad staging and dialogue like the Sand Snakes should be criticized on it's own merits, as Jamie Lannister, one of the most recognizable men in Westeros..who was, let us recall, recognized by a random peasant in the riverlands...going on an undercover mission to Dorne is just stupid as fuck plotting and should be called out as stupid even in their own context of the show.

Having one of the most recognizable men in Westeros go on some secret commando mission into Dorne is stupid no matter how you slice it. And having him do so, certainly harms the credibility of the argument that there was simply not enough time to do a more faithful adaption of the books.

The Dorne frolic and detour was a complete waste of time and resources.

[naseridrl]

I don't understand why Brienne is waiting for a signal. She knows Sansa is in danger, even if Ramsay was the nicest guy on the planet, Roose isn't. Roose was responsible for the death of her family and now he wants to use Sansa. Brienne shouldn't need to be waiting for a signal she should already be trying to figure out how to get in there and help Sansa.

What if Sansa in the future doesn't have free movement around? What if the snow comes and the tower is obscured? What if the wind blows the damn thing out? By all means she should be trying to let Sansa know she's there but beyond that waiting for a signal seems silly Sansa is in danger right now, she's been in danger since the King game to Winterfell.

[LongRider]

Aha, here you guys are! For a second I thought we had been dropped in gen pop. :)

I don't believe it has. She pulled the notion right out of her ass. Another plot item ticked by D&D...

What's the point of hitting 'plot points' when you have lost the plot and have no interest in getting it back?

[Cas Stark]

Having one of the most recognizable men in Westeros go on some secret commando mission into Dorne is stupid no matter how you slice it. And having him do so, certainly harms the credibility of the argument that there was simply not enough time to do a more faithful adaption of the books.

The Dorne frolic and detour was a complete waste of time and resources.

I'm still mystified how or if they're going to reroute Jamie to his actual self of being sick of his bitch sister, they're running out of time. They still need whatever is going to happen with recast Myrcella, maybe to include killing Bronn, which would suck, since bro or not, he's good and engaging for TV, and then what?

And, how are they going to shoehorn in Doran's fire and blood speech, and who will he give it to? Short haired crazy Ellaira? Tryst?

They almost always hit the biggest plot points, so I assume Cersei will call for Jamie's help despite the fact that she's pushed him away and belittled him for a season and a half...but they're giong to need a reason quickly why he would refuse her...but then who knows, they already invented a letter burning scene for Theon, so maybe no letter? Usually TV doesn't redo the same stuff.

[Chebyshov]

Jaime's going to need another 180. But at least he had a full season of being smitten rather than Dany who gets like, 5 minutes per personality.

And, how are they going to shoehorn in Doran's fire and blood speech, and who will he give it to? Short haired crazy Ellaira? Tryst?

I think to Trys, who from the audition tapes and trailers seems to be earnestly interested in Myrcella, but Doran is resistant to the match. So he might try and crown her so that Mrycella will be Queen and Doran has to let them get married? But I'm guessing Trys is secretly promised to Dany. Why didn't Doran ever tell him over the years? :dunno:

[The Kind Nihilist]

What's the point of hitting 'plot points' when you have lost the plot and have no interest in getting it back?

That was sorta my point. As various other ranters pointed out, D&D are writing this show with growing disregard for the characters' journeys, for their gradual psychological building, for what motivates them to go from A to B, what shapes them into making the choices that take them there and how it shapes them, instead limiting themselves to tick items off a list of what they perceive to be key plot points, whether they make sense in the context they're creating or not.

[Winter's Knight]

Jaime's going to need another 180. But at least he had a full season of being smitten rather than Dany who gets like, 5 minutes per personality.

I think to Trys, who from the audition tapes and trailers seems to be earnestly interested in Myrcella, but Doran is resistant to the match. So he might try and crown her so that Mrycella will be Queen and Doran has to let them get married? But I'm guessing Trys is secretly promised to Dany. Why didn't Doran ever tell him over the years? :dunno:

Same reason he never told Arianne in the books? Doran is ridiculously close lipped and this causes troubLe.

[MordredDayne]

Their point is that this was her own decision, because Missandei basically told her: "fuck your advisers and do whatever you want". She's empowered, she doesn't need any help. Strong woman!!!

When you put it like this, it reminds me an awful lot of the "I don't need to know what your plan is, just do whatever you want...oh, and KILL THE BOY." scene between Jon and Aemon. Such an elegant way to tie Jon and Dany together, have them get worthless non-advice from people who should know better.

As far as the marriage is concerned, I think a small tweak to the last Hizzy/Dany scene would have fixed things. They should have had Hizzy standing the whole time rather than kneeling.

Dany: Fortunately, a suitor is already on his knees.

Hizzy: But, your Grace, I am not on my-

*Dany viciously sweepkicks his legs out from under him*

Dany: You'll speak when spoken to, fuck boy!

Now THAT'S empowering.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I don't understand why Brienne is waiting for a signal. She knows Sansa is in danger, even if Ramsay was the nicest guy on the planet, Roose isn't. Roose was responsible for the death of her family and now he wants to use Sansa. Brienne shouldn't need to be waiting for a signal she should already be trying to figure out how to get in there and help Sansa.

What if Sansa in the future doesn't have free movement around? What if the snow comes and the tower is obscured? What if the wind blows the damn thing out? By all means she should be trying to let Sansa know she's there but beyond that waiting for a signal seems silly Sansa is in danger right now, she's been in danger since the King game to Winterfell.

Exactly. But to be honest, this is one of the "Build tension" moments in the show. Although all logic would dictate that Brienne should rescue Sansa ASAP, the show needs the dramatic Episode 9 scene of Sansa lighting the candle with Theon at her side or distracting Ramsay, and Brienne appearing and them somehow escaping Winterfell.

[robasp2]

EMPOWERMENT

See that is what is important these days more than the story.

Also a reason why sand snakes were highly publicized.

For the "man hating" women and the perv men.

[86shoker]

This series just getting worse. It seems the showrunners are doing the butchering job for shock value and boobs.
They don't understand why certain events were shocking in the first place. Ned's execution was shocking becouse we thought he was one the main character in series. I remember imaginig his scenes with Jon on wall before they took his head off, I was angry but understood it was a great piece of writing. In that scene we learn that game is really deadly. GRRM's shocks to either make cerain character grow or to highlight certein themes. D & D often just want to shock us just for no reason, other than shock itself.
Previous seasons started to deviate from books, so I convienced myself to look at them as it's own entity. And it work. Season 5 so far is total chaos. Many decisions don't make sense.
- Littlefinger probably switched place with Spotted Pate. Both do some stupid things but later it seems that their idiocy was stroke of genius. Who in his right mind would marry Sansa to Ramsey Bolton, known flayer and rapist. Whole North knows his reputation. Showrunners wanted to show us Sansa's new empowered role as player, but only thing Sansa could get is, more deep traumas. If Ramsey do something to her, and they portray her as unaffected by experiences would be lazy writing. In books it makes sense for her to learn in Vale. She could grasp the game slowly in COURT enviroment, not with flayers and rapists.
-Ser Baristan death was stupid. At least they could have killed him in arena. Make him die in glory. Grey Worm and Missandei romance is just crap. I expect Varys to come to Dany and we can have Eunuch love Triangle or EunuchPORN.

[MordredDayne]

Is anyone thinking that Theon might sacrifice his life in order to help Sansa escape? It just occurred to me that it doesn't seem like they'll really have any use for him after the escape plotline. Yara hasn't been seen in quite a while, and the IB plot appearing seems questionable at this point. I suppose they could do something wherein Stannis wants to execute Theon and then Sansa is like, "No, he totes helped save me!" but I wonder.

[robasp2]

D&D wont know about fans reaction unless it comes on HuffingtonPost (see, I did a sarcastic reference there).

Anybody know someone in HuffingtonPost who can post their writing sucks now? :p